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 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
Should We Use "Independent" Instead of "Grassroots"?
Moderators: imbri, ndemeter
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Rekidk
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FLmutant wrote:
Quality is not a function of the process that created a piece of art -- it is a description of the output of that process. "Grassroots" and "independent" and "corporate" are descriptions of process, not output.


And that is exactly the point.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:14 pm
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labfly
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 		great topic. Very Happy i started out my life as an artist making experimental films and wandering around to film festivals. just to have a place to share my work was incredibly exciting. same feeling when i fell into the world of args.
and although i'm happy to make money doing this, i can honestly say that getting a job in the world of args was not the reason i created sammeeeees. i did it because i loved args and i had a story i wanted to tell. i'm about to jump into my first professional project (on my own) and i must admit i'm very, very nervous. my natural way of thinking is art for art's sake... (and i have a bank account to prove it) Wink and suddenly i hear myself in these meetings discussing impressions - and i'm reading ad age instead of art in america. yikes! and even so, i'm hoping i can make this really great as well as still have the heart of an independent/grassrooter. (and by that i mean putting the journey and story first - which is, at times, difficult when there are other people involved with their own agendas and $$) thanks for starting this thread!
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:29 pm
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imbriModerator
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vpisteve wrote:
For what it's worth, I always refer to Metacortechs as an Independent game, produced out-of-pocket by those developing it, and not aimed solely at those within the fledgling little (at the time) ARG community.


It's funny that you should mention this actually. After I wrote the post above and being rather passionate about the whole grassroots thing, I found myself getting a bit introspective on my resistance to the term independent. I think it comes, in part, from being associated with ARGs such as Perplex City which was, very much, a for profit enterprise produced with a gazillion dollar* budget. I'm not as concerned with the budget (games such as Metacortechs and Sammeeees and so many others have proven that a satisfactory experience is not built out of dollars) as I am the profit motive. Now, I have no problem with games trying to make money. None. But it does seem strange to me that "games for games sake" (to add a twist to labfly's statement) should be included in with them - they have different things driving them which feeds into my calling Eldritch Errors an independent with the heart of a grassroots game earlier.

(note: gazillion dollars might be a slight exaggeration)

PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:37 pm
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jlr1001
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Joined: 06 Jun 2006
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 		Imbri said:
Quote:
I have no problem with games trying to make money. None. But it does seem strange to me that "games for games sake" (to add a twist to labfly's statement) should be included in with them


Yes, but it works the other way around. If, in this instance, the "game for the sake of gaming" is patently grassroots, is it just as disingenuous to group the independently developed, though profit-driven game with it?

FLmutant said:
Quote:
Quality is not a function of the process that created a piece of art -- it is a description of the output of that process. "Grassroots" and "independent" and "corporate" are descriptions of process, not output.


Well... the process has some bearing on the output, doesn't it? If, all things being equal, there is an established, and basic best practice for successful PMing, then not following that process would seem to not necessarily yield a poor product, but certainly might work against the PM team.

I guess, to better understand what you were saying--and to possibly get a grip on what I was trying to get at--we (or someone) needs to detail what those different processes are. By understanding that, perhaps, the differences between the categories will become more obvious.

Quote:
thanks for starting this thread!


Your welcome. Very Happy



-jlr1001 (though I might change my name to gadfly)

PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:02 pm
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Rogi Ocnorb
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Joined: 01 Sep 2005
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 		Imbri: While we should all practice a little introspection in all aspects of our lives and beliefs, I wanted to say that I am right there with you on your viewpoints.

EDIT: I had a big long post here about my player experiences and how "independent" brings with it certain expectations and crosses to bear for the PM. But, it was getting too rambling. It did end up in a place where (from my experience) those projects I've interacted with that were PM'd by players strictly for love of the game/their fellow players have been superior to any of the stuff done secondary to something else. Be it a product, a cause or just money, in general. And it seems no amount of capital infusion or Flash programming ever tips the scale. One of the things I can't get a handle on is why it seems to me that most times a developer's first project is their best. That wouldn't seem to make a lick of sense. But, there it is.

It'd be interesting to have more PMs/teams weigh in on how they classified past/current projects.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:22 am
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Rekidk
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Rogi Ocnorb wrote:
One of the things I can't get a handle on is why it seems to me that most times a developer's first project is their best. That wouldn't seem to make a lick of sense. But, there it is.


Level of passion, perhaps?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:41 am
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Rolerbe
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 		For those games that go the distance and provide a great experience, I can think of no better accolade to the passion and commitment of the creators than "Grassroots".
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:53 pm
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Rekidk
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Rolerbe wrote:
For those games that go the distance and provide a great experience, I can think of no better accolade to the passion and commitment of the creators than "Grassroots".


True--but that's not to say that passion cannot be a major part of non-grassroots games as well. Take, for example, the games of 42 Entertainment or GMD Studios; I think there's a high level of passion there, as well.

Actually, one might argue that a PM must be passionate.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:15 pm
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jlr1001
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 		Rolerbe said:
Quote:
I can think of no better accolade to the passion and commitment of the creators than "Grassroots".


Call me crazy but if all I heard at the end of the day was the term "grassroots" I'd feel as if I was being dismissed. Because it would seem to me that the end goal of any grassroots anything would be to crossover and become the "establishment".

If I was running a grassroots marketing campaign my end goal would be that it has a similar, if not larger impact than a traditional, interrupt marketing campaign. Otherwise why go the grassroots route?

Grassroots politics has been mentioned a few times in this thread. And I can definitely see the need for grassroots politics given that the prevailing system is often closed to newer voices. But it would seem to me that an understood goal of a grassroots political campaign would be that it has an impact on the political machine as a whole.

Back to the topic at hand, how many grassroots PMs have created their games with the hopes of transitioning that experience into a paying/longterm gig? Whether it's as an independent developer or as a marketing agency running larger games for their clients?

That last point takes me back to square one: If you want to run grassroots games for the fun of it, and that's all. Great. But what about the developers who want to create independent games that (hopefully) generate some form of revenue? To me that's different than the pure grassroots arg developer...

(I hope I'm not talking in circles, but I fear that might be the case...)



-jlr1001

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:04 pm
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FLmutant
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jlr1001 wrote:
That last point takes me back to square one: If you want to run grassroots games for the fun of it, and that's all. Great. But what about the developers who want to create independent games that (hopefully) generate some form of revenue? To me that's different than the pure grassroots arg developer...


This conversation keeps creeping up between Brooke and I too. It has clarified a few of perceptions (yeah, brevity!) Part of why Brooke and I feel differently is we assign profit motives differently. To her, indie almost means "intended for profit." I know more than one film festival where that would divide the crowd down the middle in argument. For me, independent isn't about whether or not you hope to make money at it one day: artists are allowed to dream about making a living from their art, even the communist ones!

For me, grassroots means something different too. Zombie walks are grassroots -- multiple people are doing them, without coordination with each other or a funding source or the permission of a sponsor, and without a "leader" coordinating it all. None of the "grassroots games" really have that attribute that I associate with grassroots ... spreading, of it's own accord. Not the audience size, that happens in anything, but the practice of performing that piece or that game.

I hate to use dictionary definitions, but I LIKE the existing time-tested definition!

Quote:
1. free from external control and constraint; "an independent mind"; "a series of independent judgments"; "fiercely independent individualism"

2. not dependent on or conditioned by or relative to anything else

3. autonomous: (of political bodies) not controlled by outside forces; "an autonomous judiciary"; "a sovereign state"

4. not contingent


Notice how not a single one of those definitions has anything to do with money. It has to do with control.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:28 pm
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Rogi Ocnorb
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
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 		It all depends on your source for definitions.
Here's what Princeton's WordNet has to offer for:

Independent
and
Grassroots

Admittedly, there is no "noun" definition provided for "Grassroots", but the noun entries for "Independent" surely establish a bias for classification.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:26 pm
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jlr1001
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 		Rogi Ocnorb said:
Quote:
It all depends on your source for definitions.
Here's what Princeton's WordNet has to offer


Well, looking at that grassroots definition makes me wonder if, once the grassroots effort has been successfully pulled off, is it accurate to continue calling the "agents" grassroots.

I mean, going back to my previous post, if the end effect of a successful grassroots movement is to alter, influence, join, or displace the established system, then is it no longer grassroots...

Once a grassroots team launches their game, then they're no longer part of just the community of ARG players. That community is now their audience and, at least during the course of their game, they are part of another community... the community of active PMs. To me that's more about independence than what the definition of grassroots implies...

(How's that for a take on independent game development without referencing the presence or absence of a profit motive?)



-jlr1001

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:58 pm
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