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 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
Suicide over MySpace hoax could put PMs in legal trouble
Moderators: imbri, ndemeter
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Jas0n
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 		There are a lot of good points in this thread, but I wanted to respond with one of my feelings on the evolution of the genre in relation to tinag.

Some of you above have pointed out that even with tinag you're able to find out enough about the characters to know they are characters rather than real people. I think one of the biggest draws of the tinag concept is allowing players to feel as though everything around them is real. This could be true for newer players to the genre, but again for the more experienced players it isn't quite as big. Then again it could exclude some newer players who think this person is just a little awkward. Lol

For me, the evolution today should have us at a point where players are comfortable knowing it is a game and adjusting the tinag concept to cover just the interaction and personalities with the characters. With so many potential legal consequences that can face arg developers for misleading "consumers" and other technicalities continously expanding, developers need a way to put a mark or even disclaimer on the product. The trick is to pull it off in a manner that the character might not have realized it was there, didn't put it there, and definitely "can't see it."

Situations have been used in the past and recently with EE where developers pull off somewhat similar methods. EE stepped out of the box of tinag through a method similar to the above where the characters shouldn't necessarily notice it. A method specifically for myspace could be a pre-generated banner ad that rotates between perhaps some bogus products each linking to a message regarding the fact the players have found a game?

I definitely don't know the best approach to performing a CYA manouver, but I can say that perhaps it is time to allow our personal opinions in regards to tinag to evolve.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:46 pm
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rose
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 		I'm not sure how this will go, but it seems like the most likely avenue for prosecution is based on using the internet to anonymously harrass anyone.

I don't think they will have much luck with the account regulation, but I could be wrong.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:48 pm
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FLmutant
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Jas0n wrote:
Some of you above have pointed out that even with tinag you're able to find out enough about the characters to know they are characters rather than real people. I think one of the biggest draws of the tinag concept is allowing players to feel as though everything around them is real.


This really stems back to whether you think TINAG is a developer's mantra or a player experience mantra. I tend to be more along the developer's mantra side: it isn't enough to do something just because that's a game would do, because TINAG. I think the benefits of that are similar to what you describe, Jason: that "pinch me and remind me this isn't real" moment.

Unfortunately, the fewer obviously non-real elements you have, the more you can be mistaken for hoax or fraud instead of fiction. We quickly get into the conceptual realm of Invisible Theater (where drama happens where people don't expect it as part of a activist statement) if we aren't careful. About five or six years ago, I got into a blood-boiling debate on this topic with the Word of Mouth Marketing Association who was coming up with ethical best practices like "every practitioner must disclose their relationship with the company being marketed or it is unethical". In their mind, they were protecting against the growing legislative efforts to ban some of the "word of mouth" practices that were deceptive, but as you can imagine an ARG would suck if that were really the best practice.

I think that means we just have to walk away from some techniques when they start to become to controversial. MySpace profiles might be one of those, just like fictional information in domain names was one of those, etc. Because we are a pastiche medium, we inherit all the wonderful production tools and all of their ethical residual gunk clinging to them. Or, we find ways to handle the tools without getting the gunk on us.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:05 am
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Mikeyj
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imbri wrote:

When it comes down to making a law on such a thing, frankly, I think it's up to the individual websites for how they deal with such things. Just as Unfiction has rules in its TOS to disallow characters from posting...


Sorry for the quote slash and burn!

The TOS rules don't prevent characters from posting, they discourage. Retrospective intervention sorts all (most?) of those that aren't discouraged. TOS's that discouraged an impersonation that might result in a tragedy, don't really cut the mustard and I don't think retrospective intervention is good enough in these cases either, so what can websites do?

To comment on earlier comparisons, Facebook I would expect to be worse than Myspace in that there's an awful lot more personal information available, opening more potential routes for bullies (a word I've always found to be inaccurately twee for this behaviour).

FLmutant, I've always suspected that gunk was the mother of invention Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:52 pm
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Rekidk
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Mikeyj wrote:
imbri wrote:

When it comes down to making a law on such a thing, frankly, I think it's up to the individual websites for how they deal with such things. Just as Unfiction has rules in its TOS to disallow characters from posting...


Sorry for the quote slash and burn!

The TOS rules don't prevent characters from posting, they discourage.


Well, that's the same with any set of rules. The United States legal system doesn't prevent me from committing murder or rape, but they certainly discourage it. You can tell me that it's not allowed all you want, but I can still do it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:48 am
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FLmutant
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Mikeyj wrote:
FLmutant, I've always suspected that gunk was the mother of invention Smile


At the very least, limitations are. "How do we tell this story without stepping straight into ethical gunkiness?" That counts as a limitation. Twisted Evil

Rekidk wrote:
Well, that's the same with any set of rules. The United States legal system doesn't prevent me from committing murder or rape, but they certainly discourage it. You can tell me that it's not allowed all you want, but I can still do it.


But to bring it back into focus, what we're really talking about here is "over-reaching reactions". You're right, Rekidk, but as a community of storytellers and game designers we're not going to end crime, or nasty mothers with an axe grind. The difference between "fiction" and "fake" is really one of intention, though, and that intention is implied through the production choices.

So we're back to the classic problem of how to help people separate fiction from fakery after a really nasty fakery makes them think the landscape is cut and dried to pass rules about both. Both storytellers and fraudsters won't be stopped, but a "Best Practice" can emerge (at least for the storytellers ... do fraudsters have best practices?)

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:23 am
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Shutaro
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FLmutant wrote:
do fraudsters have best practices?


Well, it depends on the type and scale of the fraud. But I would have to answer: Probably. ^.^ Example: If I'm part of a criminal organization, with the intent of separating individuals from their money, I'd likely have a set of procedures in place that would help assure my success (failure to do so could land me in jail or worse). If I'm just some guy in the internet trying to trick people into believing that some fake article or site is related to some ongoing movie promotion, I may not be so careful (I'm not interested in best practices). So, I would think that in certain situations (noted above) one would need some sort of process implemented to assure that the fraud remains believable long enough to serve its intended purpose. I'd imagine that these rules would probably be fairly universal, across a variety of situations, but I don't know that they've ever sat down amongst themselves and codified the process (and if they were, that they would be applied evenly across the fraud industry as a whole)...

They probably apply equally to Storytellers, as well, since we're talking about a question of intent. Specifically: Communicating, or not communicating, intent. In the case of Fiction, you want the reader/viewer/participant/consumer to know, on some level, that what they are consuming is not real (easier in the case of a book, movie, or TV show because of the familiar context; it's harder set that context on Internet when so many people are inclined to believe whatever they see/read on the net; see: Wikipedia, the controversy over that "Please Save My Husband" game). In the case of Fraud, you're trying to mask your intent (you don't want them to know its fake; again, the above is what makes fraud a lot easier on the net). Aside from that, there's little to distinguish a convincing fraud from a convincing fantasy, in as much as you can differentiate between a hammer as a tool and a hammer as a weapon.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:48 am
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rose
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 		I guess I'm not seeing the subtlety here. This girl was harassed by people claiming to be her friend. I guess that is a difference in intent - if by intent you mean the malicious intention to harm someone and cause them emotional distress. This account was created solely, it seems, for the purpose of harming this girl. I don't think the problem is so much that it was fictional --if it had been a fake account created by her Mom with a fictional friend to cheer her up, would that be a bad thing?--as much as the way it was used. The fictional nature of the account just goes to show the bad faith of the people who created it and used it to harm her.

I don't see how Myspace can possibly regulate "fictional" accounts. If a game created a fake account that was used for the purpose of harassing and causing emotional harm to someone, I would hope that would be stopped. I actually hope that would be stopped in "real" accounts too.

On the other hand, if no game ever used myspace again, I would be happy. I don't have a myspace account and have yet to be impressed by any I have seen used in any game or extended reality experience. But that doesn't mean it could be good if some creative person used it well. Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:59 am
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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 		in other news
It seems MySpace has come to some sort of very vague agreement with the Attorney Generals of various states. The point of the agreement is to add protections for children against sexual predators and pornography. The article says they have agreed to try to create some monitering technology and other stuff which includes identifying people who create accounts.

I hope to read more specifics in other articles.

Here is a link to an AP article.

NY Times Bits blog link here doesn't seem too impressed with the agreement either.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:14 pm
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konamouse
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 		[quote=AP article"]New York investigators said they set up Facebook profiles last year as 12- to 14-year olds and were quickly contacted by other users looking for sex.[/quote]

So the problem is not limited to MySpace.

Quote:
Create a high school section for users under 18 years old.

Great - make it easier for the predators. Rolling Eyes

Still - most of the real monitoring needs to occur in the home, by the parents. I know the mother of the teen did all the right things but the person ultimately responsible for this tragedy was the woman who created the fake persona specifically to harrass this child (not MySpace).

MySpace should not have to police it's users (unless someone makes a complaint against the account). I wouldn't want all communication through any social networking site to be "pending editorial evaluation prior to publication". The athorities/civil case attorneys needs to take this case as if this woman was doing the same thing with snailmail and phone calls.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:41 pm
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Im_RawnBurgundy
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 		If you are stupid enough to let people on Myspace influence your decisions in real life, its your own fault what ends up happening. Im not saying that im glad these people are dead..its terrible.

I guess what I mean is..Just don't let people you either

A DONT KNOW

B KNOW FROM SCHOOL

effect you in real life...because the most logical outcome is that you will ever see them again.

-A budding Shrink. Rolling Eyes

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:32 pm
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MageSteff
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Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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 		Age Factor
Age-Bullying-Morality
I agree this is a tragic case... but may I make comments from several sides of the issue?

1. Megan was 13, and using MySpace, when the TOS states users should be 14... Not that a year makes that much difference, but, if Megan's mother was monitoring her Daughter, that comes to mind first - she allowed her daughter to violate the TOS for the site.

2. Lori Drew, mother of the former friend, allowed her daughter to create a fake account, while the age of her daughter is not given, I would suspect it must be fairly close in age to Megan, hence, another child that was allowed to violate the TOS of the website used.

3. The message in question, the "the world would be a better place without you" one, actually came from another friend of the Drew family, Ashley, and not directly from a member of the Drew family. Where was Ashley's family that they were not supervising their daughter's use of the internet? Ashley's age is not given, but as she was an employee of the Drew's, chances are she is a few years older than the other two girls. Why isn't she being prosecuted as the one that actually wrote the hurtful message? In my opinion, Ashley is the one responsible and not Mrs. Drew.

4. While the internet is being blamed, the real issue here is bullying, as others have mentioned.

5. As it deals with ARGs, PMs do not (or should not) have characters send out messages that make people feel bad about themselves, or have the potential to make them feel bad. They would turn off their player base so fast, that they wouldn't have a game left, and probably would have a difficult time finding other PMs would work on another game with them.
Unfortunately, as PMs we cannot control what players discuss between themselves, but one would hope in our community that any frustrations are directed toward the characters and not to other players. As Players we are usually aware of the non-adult members of our group, and while many corporations may be involved with ARGs these days, their employees are adults and must follow specific rules about interatctions with the public. While there may be a grassroots ARG with minor PMs, I would hope that PMs are keeping tabs on each other, and should a message be received from a player that causes anger, that the PM involved in the communication discuss the best way to answer the player with at least one other PM. (NOTE: this takes into account that it can be hard to run an ARG by oneself, and if you choose to run a game by yourself, you really need to be extra cautious because of it)
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:50 pm
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Mikeyj
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 		I'm not convinced that the internet isn't at fault (I know, heresy, but bear with me).

Bullying requires a personal interaction, twenty years ago there were far fewer interactions between individuals - bullying had to take place at schools and in workplaces and other places where groups of people physically met. Even ten years ago, when social networking hadn't exploded (and I'd only had my first e-mail address for a year - weird).

Now there are far more contacts, via mobile phone, Facebook, myspace, IM, Flickr etc. ad nauseum and therefore far more opportunities for bullying to occur. So more bullying; that's just stats.

Moreover, it can not only happen more frequently, but is easier to do. There are larger social barriers to going up to someone and whispering something offensive in their ears every time you see them than there are to offensive e-mails, IMs, whatever, whenever you see them online. The cost to the bully of bullying has gone down, but I'm not sure that the effects of that bullying have gone down commensurately.

So, this is a societal problem brought about by a rapid change in the tools we use to interact. You wouldn't ban playgrounds because some kids get bullied (though I'm tempted to suggest a football ban Wink ), however, urban planners come up with design solutions that aim to reduce anti-social behaviour. Social networking sites (and mobile phone companies etc.) have exacerbated an existing problem (and solved lots of other problems, I don't think their an implicitly 'bad thing'), why should they be absolved of being part of a solution?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:26 am
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