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 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
Making a profitable ARG.
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thegreatpablo
Boot

Joined: 11 Jul 2007
Posts: 62

 		Fundable...that looks very very cool and very promising.

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 5:22 pm
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Nighthawk
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee


Joined: 14 Jul 2007
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Location: Miami, Florida, USA, Earth

 		I like the concept of "Fundable"... Might use it some day if I ever fail at making this a paying gig. Wink
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:34 pm
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buff
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Joined: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 106

 		Well, the same goes for me, if I don't decide to take it for a spin.

Academia. Is. Heaven.
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 5:16 pm
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Silent|Away
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Silent wrote:
The Ransom Model


Nighthawk wrote:
How would it work? "Pay me 'X' or else... no game for you!"

That feels... wrong.


buff wrote:
However, personally, I believe more in the second model. Devised by John Kelsey and Bruce Schneier - I give you "The Street Performer Protocol"[4].
Basically, you tell your audience that "When I've received $1000, the game will start, and it will rock!". Of course, a PM need to make sure that her audience have confidence in her ability to deliver a kick-ass game, and the audience must trust the PM to actually deliver the game. This last problem could probably be handled by some kind of service, but hey - I'm just kicking out some ideas here. This makes sure that the game will have the budget it needs, and that game is available to an audience anticipating its arrival.


Nighthawk wrote:
I like the concept of "Fundable"... Might use it some day if I ever fail at making this a paying gig. Wink


You know...er..."Fundable" and "Ransom Model" is the exact same thing? What is the difference between them then?

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 11:52 pm
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vpisteve
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Joined: 30 Sep 2002
Posts: 2441
Location: 1987

 		Fundable is a good idea on paper, I think. But it would still be very challenging to successfully launch a game using this method, for the reasons stated earlier (unknown quantity, quality, etc.)

Our little ARG corner of the webiverse is still a pretty small place, all things considered. I would be very surprised if anyone could raise even $1000 ahead of time to fund a game. I only say this as I've seen the monetary dynamics of this space (not meaning Unfiction itself), and....well, I'd be surprised. Not that folks are stingy or anything, quite the contrary. This group of people has shown incredible generosity on many occasions.

But pay to play? Even using the ransom/fundable model? Let me put it this way. I'll bet $100 that a new ARG can't raise say, $2000 to launch a game this way.

Hmm, but maybe *there's* an interesting way to fund a game in and of itself. Bet people that you can. Wink

Anyway, I'm really not meaning to sound pessimistic or defeatist or - God forbid - anti-grassroots. I'm really meaning to say "Prove me wrong!" Smile
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 12:00 am
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Rogi Ocnorb
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 4266
Location: Where the cheese is free.

 		While I'd love to say, "I'll take that bet!", I can't, because I agree with you.
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 1:52 am
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buff
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Joined: 23 Sep 2003
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 		Actually, the realistic me agrees with you. On the other hand, it HAS flown for both musicians and writers.

But the main problem, as vpisteve pointed out, is still "Who the h*ll are you, and why should we trust you to make a game worth paying for?"
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:19 am
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Agent Lex
Entrenched


Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 1188
Location: No longer London, still in England
Silent|Away wrote:
You know...er..."Fundable" and "Ransom Model" is the exact same thing? What is the difference between them then?


Fundable wrote:
If my goal isn't met, no one pays anything.


I think the perceived differences are that fundable is a trustworthy, secure system, and that if the money isn't raised it gets given back to the contributor. That safety net would certainly be the line for me between donating or not (provided other factors, state of the market, my bank balance, the PM involved, etc etc.)

PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:21 am
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pancito
I Have No Life


Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Posts: 2095
Location: In my happy place.

 		As Steve said, we are a relatively small community. While there is money out there, it's corporate. There will be big, well supported ARGS (Lost Ring), Medium sized, well supported 'stuff' (Doritos) and home brew. Doesn't mean home brew isn't good. My favorite beer, Sierra Nevada, essentially started in a garage. But they aren't Bud (thank God), and there's already a 'fan base' for beer.

The way you make money in ARGs at the moment is to get your crap together, put together a good team, produce a couple really good games, and take it into advertising. If you don't want to go the corporate route, you bide your time for a couple or ten years until there is a fan base that can support the indie scene. Work on your chops in either case.

This model can work, but not yet, and I don't think $2000 would really even pay minimum wage if you counted up all the hours. So why are you doing it? Make the hobby pay for itself? My second 'job' pays me $20-$30/hr for messing around with a saw and hammer when I want to do it. I like carpentry. I like ARGing, but I don't see that kind of pay off in the near future unless I go corporate. And what is your cost in lost earning potential while you are writing ARGs?

If we're talking about paying for the hobby, fine, you can probably do that, or at least help defray expenses, in which case a PayPal icon on your site and periodic 'pledge drives' are probably sufficient. "If you liked this, please contribute..." The PBS/NPR model. If we're talking about making a living...
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:43 am
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Nighthawk
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee


Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 4751
Location: Miami, Florida, USA, Earth
Quote:
You know...er..."Fundable" and "Ransom Model" is the exact same thing? What is the difference between them then?


First off, I wouldn't use Fundable for the express purpose of making a game. I would probably use it for startup capital for my own company to do advertising, in the hopes that I can grow the business in to something more than a passing hobby. I would use it to things like incorporate my company, but banner advertising, make mailings and other promotional materials, maybe even go as far as hiring professional designers for the website or for video material. As far as it relates to the game, I might consider paying for targeted advertising in the same way "Hurts to Heal" did; you would be paying to make the game better through a bigger audience, but regardless of what happens I wouldn't deny you the game.

Secondly, the concept of Fundable is much better because it gives one the sense of security that his money isn't disappearing in to the ether if the goal is not met. It also makes me feel that the person asking for money has to, in a certain way, work for it and earn it rather than sit around and wait for blind donations.

For the record, so far I've gotten $20 in donations, and I've used that to buy several domains for my upcoming game. I would have done that anyway over time, but it helped.
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 10:46 am
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vpisteve
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Joined: 30 Sep 2002
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Location: 1987
pancito wrote:
As Steve said, we are a relatively small community. While there is money out there, it's corporate. There will be big, well supported ARGS (Lost Ring)


This exactly makes my point. FTLR, a huge well-funded game that was basically launched via the ARG community, seems pretty big. But when you actually look at the indicators of how many people are actually interacting with it (non-paid YouTube views, posts on in-game forums, live event attendance, etc.), it's pretty abysmally small, especially considering its scope. For example, attendance at the live events so far haven't even come close to, say, the Last Call Poker (which was much "smaller" than FTLR) graveyard games.

I guess my point is that very often, even games that are considered "big" by ARG community standards may not be as big as they seem, if that makes sense (which is a great reason to not just target your games at the ARG community, but that's another topic for another day). And if you're turning to the ARG community exclusively for funding, you'll need to take that into account if you're thinking of any kind of large scale for-profit revenue model.

At the same time though, yes, it is indeed possible to do a quality game for $2000 in hard costs. Smile
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 11:44 am
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thegreatpablo
Boot

Joined: 11 Jul 2007
Posts: 62

 		I had given thought to using something like Fundable or such for my games, and the thought had occurred to me to simply ask for enough to cover my out of pocket expenses (probably $200 for a game the size I'm working on). I bet a relatively well known PM with a game or two under his/her belt could raise $200 with little difficulty. That said, I think asking for that amount might be detrimental to the community.

Everyone has already been talking about the cost of a game in terms of out of pocket expense as well as labor costs. I totally agree, that in order to make this a profitable venture both of those need to be taken into account. My concern is that people will begin to only charge for out of pocket expenses, like I had considered, which puts a pricetag on a game that does not actually reflect the real "cost" of the game. So as a community, we need to be careful to avoid this type of thinking and propagation as it will lead to further problems down the road when PMs attempt to charge the true "cost" of the game.

PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 1:13 pm
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pancito
I Have No Life


Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Posts: 2095
Location: In my happy place.
Nighthawk wrote:
For the record, so far I've gotten $20 in donations, and I've used that to buy several domains for my upcoming game. I would have done that anyway over time, but it helped.

Neither have you actively asked for donations. In fact you've encouraged donations to uF instead at least once. At this point BoL/SiD has (guess) over 200 signups. At $1 apiece... Where's the min/max on donation seeking? I can also safely say that I've already gotten more entertainment value out of the unstarted game than $20 worth of movie tickets. (Not implying that I've donated anything...)

thegreatpablo wrote:
My concern is that people will begin to only charge for out of pocket expenses, like I had considered, which puts a pricetag on a game that does not actually reflect the real "cost" of the game. So as a community, we need to be careful to avoid this type of thinking and propagation as it will lead to further problems down the road when PMs attempt to charge the true "cost" of the game.

What you are basically saying here is that ARGs shouldn't charge at all until they can make money. That, to me, is absurd. All kinds of businesses operate at a loss at startup. Amazon must be making money by now, but they didn't for several years. Further, most musicians work for tips, but that doesn't keep major acts from charging an arm & leg for concert tickets. I don't see the tips model hurting the big name acts. One might argue that getting the fan base used to paying small amounts for their entertainment, by whatever method, makes profit more likely by changing the expectations.
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:47 pm
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thegreatpablo
Boot

Joined: 11 Jul 2007
Posts: 62
pancito wrote:
thegreatpablo wrote:
My concern is that people will begin to only charge for out of pocket expenses, like I had considered, which puts a pricetag on a game that does not actually reflect the real "cost" of the game. So as a community, we need to be careful to avoid this type of thinking and propagation as it will lead to further problems down the road when PMs attempt to charge the true "cost" of the game.

What you are basically saying here is that ARGs shouldn't charge at all until they can make money. That, to me, is absurd. All kinds of businesses operate at a loss at startup. Amazon must be making money by now, but they didn't for several years. Further, most musicians work for tips, but that doesn't keep major acts from charging an arm & leg for concert tickets. I don't see the tips model hurting the big name acts. One might argue that getting the fan base used to paying small amounts for their entertainment, by whatever method, makes profit more likely by changing the expectations.


I think you may have misunderstood. I'm not saying we shouldn't, I'm saying that I'm reluctant to and that I wouldn't want to be the one held responsible for setting a precedent to the amount that SHOULD be charged for a game, even if it's far too low.

That said, if mine were the only game out there and I thought I could get away with it without consequence, I'd charge for my out of pocket expenses only (probably about $200 for my current game) and be quite all right with that. My time is my own and for right now, I don't expect people to pay for it.

So, based on your reaction, I'm guessing that you support a low cost of entry for ARGs? Meaning that we charge for out of pocket expenses and ask for donations on top of that?

Regarding your music analogy, you're talking about a business model that's been around for hundreds of years and has had time to develop properly. Right now, we're talking about a budding business opportunity that hasn't been pioneered before.

That said, I'm open to all ideas, I'm just stating my concerns, not trying to place any limitations on anything.

PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:51 pm
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pancito
I Have No Life


Joined: 24 Feb 2008
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Location: In my happy place.
thegreatpablo wrote:

So, based on your reaction, I'm guessing that you support a low cost of entry for ARGs? Meaning that we charge for out of pocket expenses and ask for donations on top of that?

Regarding your music analogy, you're talking about a business model that's been around for hundreds of years and has had time to develop properly. Right now, we're talking about a budding business opportunity that hasn't been pioneered before.

No, what I'm saying is that there are many possible models, and that if you are trying to defray expenses it's perfectly legitimate to do so. You can now blame me if you want. I don't think we should charge for games up front. I don't think the art/business is at the point in its development and audience size that you can successfully do that, but we might be at the tips/donations stage. I could be wrong, though, and if someone wants to try pay to play, I'd encourage them to do so. You can even send me an ad for the game.

I agree with the second point above. What we are doing here is looking for models that might work, no? Again, my question is, what are you trying to do? Make a profit? I don't see home brew games doing that yet for all of the reasons listed so far in the thread. But I'd like to see someone try...
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:27 pm
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