unforum

[Karensa]

I get ya, really I do...

Let me clarify one thing though - by community, I mostly mean the regular "base" of members are Uf, and not so much the mass public interested in games who may or may not be registered here, or elsewhere, who follow and play.

I thought the whole idea - and if I am wrong on this, no sweat - was to look for productive ways of getting the world of ARGs into more public hands, to expand the audience, to draw in more people, etc. I've seen a marked evolution take place in the short time I've been here (with this account and my old one, so roughly 3 years-ish). When I first came, I read everything I could find on here and began to recognize a very real dynamic taking place that can be summed up as newcomers showed a distinct eagerness to jump in in a hands on, try as you go fashion, and those who've been around awhile "vets" which include PMs and players, pretty much discouraged doing that...the going "unspoken rule" or suggestion encouraged instead was DON'T do it...go play some games first to see how they're done.

I have no issue with that, never did. I understand being familiar with something, but that's where it would end. Time and again new people asked the same question and got the same answers. Then I began to see new people who had followed that advice, after a time, come back to the next round of new people and basically parrot off the same suggestion.

What I never saw and still haven't seen are those with actual experience explain the mechanical how to part to new people who are asking, or recognize this is a real group out there who are not the sort to follow the yellow brick road, they are hands on, solo style, jump in and learn as you go sorts and there doesn't appear to be any "vets" in this "community" who are willing to come mentor that group.

What happens is that group comes in, asks, gets a lukewarm or negative response and basically that's where the whole thread dies. I can probably post about 30 threads right in the first half dozen pages of this happening. It's basically discouraging that group from doing anything but what the "community" is comfortable with.

It just occurred to me over time that perhaps that's singing to the wrong audience in reverse...and to take a swipe at the one movie,

"if you build it, they will come"

I have seen repeatedly that when people take their own initiative and just do it, put something out there, the response from the "community" is far more welcoming, if not amusingly turning a blind eye that if asked directly if this should've been done, most would've discouraged it.

Perhaps that is the true spirt of a PM...after all, they are pulling strings and the players follow along and play and do as directed. If a PM asks the audience "how do I entertain you" they pracitcally get shot outta the water in a thread full of gloom and doom, "can't see this working" negativity. If a PM presents a product (game) - and amusingly, even the email puzzle help me find her, save him, etc that it's pretty clear the majority of the community can't stand - they still take some time to dig into it and play anyway.

I don't recall where it came from, who said it, (plus I got a badass headache and thinking hurts!) but the sentiment is basically this: people don't know what the hell they want until you show them. That is a true dynamic here at UF...you can debate it all over the place, and it's been done, but the reality is the ones with the initiative show players what they want by *just doing it*...

Lots of good ideas from lots of people who are really interested in this whole genre tend to get hosed down when there could be a more welcome receptivity to ALL forms of production and development, and not just religiously parroting off the same old suggestions that don't get anyone anywhere. I don't have THE solution, I have *A* solution. I'm not asking anyone's permission. I am throwing *A* suggestion in the mix that instead of asking people on the forum what they think, and then using whatever responses you get as your gauge as to whether you had a good idea or not, just develop your ideas on your own, break the "unspoken rules" and ignore the audience you're not after anyway (those who instead of just passing over a thread will come in and shoot it down for whatever their perceptions are), go put it together anyway, launch it, and watch what happens.

If it bombs, THEN come back in meta and provide an explanation and get feedback. Learn that way - plus you'd get far more actual meat for your fork by giving the ones who actually experienced it to share their experience with you in more specific ways that are relevant to what you were doing at all.

As for the issue of profitability in ARGs, of course it can be done, it's done all the time, many examples of it. The error is asking this community "how to" because this community has a history of having no real idea how to and will be thwarted by the "dittohead" sort of mentality of it hasn't been done because it can't be done because it doesn't work because it hasn't worked...

What I'd like to see, but it's pretty clear it won't happen, is instead of presenting all the ways it won't work, just throw out some ideas that might, brainstorm, suggest ways and means, resources, put enough different possible routes out there that the one asking can jumpstart his or her own brain to be


INSPIRED


by the suggestions and may well enjoy what I now officially dub the Nighthawk Effect - successful development of an enjoyable ARG by not exactly following the "community rules on PMing"....

I can say this factually - those who have been discouraged by a negative or lack of response on the forum from asking questions - chances are they'd never produce anything anyway because the simple reality they got discouraged at all indicates they're more the follower-let-other-people-direct-me sort and would be far better off being ARG players. The PM mentality leads by example within their means and when it's outside their means they enlist help where it's needed.

For the record, I'm not jacking this thread and I'm not "arguing" with anyone here or trying to - I just saw the same dynamic erupt here and was inspired to comment on it...instead of giving all the reasons it's not gonna work, why not just avoid posting and taking up space and save the rest of the thread for ideas that can inspire new ideas, things that can work, might work, who knows give it a shot work...

I suppose I could've shortened it, but like she said, people get passionate about things and...well I did.

Put another way to illustrate: many times I've posted on computer help forums when some such thing has gone apeshit with my computer, asking for help, describing the problem, asking how might I fix it.

It irritates the godawfulshit out of me when the next 15 replies are all "wow, I don't know what that's about" or "have no idea, but someone else might"....

And I'm thinking THEN WHY ARE YOU HERE? Why post anything at all if you have absolutely nothing to contribute to the question? Just to hear yourself type? It's wasting time and very discouraging. Those people could've just recognized they didn't know and moved to some other topic, and that's sort of the idea behind what I'm getting at. People ask and the thread fills up with nothing at all helpful from the majory of postings and then a few really good on topic posts get washed over.

Basically, if someone asks how to make an ARG profitable and your opinion is that there's no way to, or you don't know how, or you have nothing to contribute, why not just pass the thread by and NOT post either way - and save room for people who see the value of the question, have ideas to share and can open a positive productive encouraging discussion?

[Rogi Ocnorb]