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 Forum index » Diversions » TimeWasters
Puzzle Experiment #1
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tabster
Decorated


Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 244
Location: Ohio

Well first guess has been posted so new one would be simple adding

4475

second guess woud be multiplying and if larger than 10 then adding the digits

3434

third guess would be 0000 (maybe the lock was not re-programmed) or 9999 (same reasoning)
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:37 pm
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Nighthawk
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee


Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 4751
Location: Miami, Florida, USA, Earth

I'm changing my answer: I will report the captain as a "section eight", take over command and push the former captain out the nearest airlock. Then I use high explosives to turn the moonbase in to a smoldering crater and blame it on the captain going "plum loco."


Actually, what I would do depends on what I'm supposed to do with the answer as part of the game. Do I enter it on a web page? Send it as an SMS? Email it to someone?

If it's on a web page, this problem seems simple enough that, if all the above come up incorrect, I could write a "brute force" routine to scan through the 10,000 possible combinations. Since there are so few possibilities, I'd do it gracefully and not pound the server in to batter with the equivalent of a "denial of service attack".
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:38 pm
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Omega
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Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 430
Location: Utah

SOLUTION

Nighthawk wrote:
My guess would be 1395.

Using the subscript numbers as indexes, I'd take the digits from the image:

Image has 5319.

1-3 2-2 3-4 4-1

Therefore, 1st is 3rd digit, 2nd is 2nd digit, 3rd is 4th digit, 4th is 1st digit... 1-3-9-5

This is the correct solution and line of reasoning I was aiming for. There is a more difficult solve embedded in the puzzle which I will leave open until Sunday, for anyone interested. For now, here are some preliminary stats:

Estimated difficulty: 2 out of 10 (easy)
Estimated solve time: 48 hours
Estimated password attempts: 30

Actual difficulty: ~1 out of 10 (super easy)
Actual solve time: 10 hours, 19 minutes
Actual password attempts: ~16


Before the puzzle was posted, I wrote down a few topics I was hoping to address or learn more about.

Preliminary questions:
  1. Does positioning the player within a predefined role (exploration crew member, in this case) seem awkward or out of place for an ARG? Does it hinder immersion or participation?
  2. Does it seem weird that the numbers in the image have no relation to the base or the introduction? What would be a better way of presenting these numbers?
  3. Does the line of reasoning for the puzzle solution make sense? Are there other solutions with valid interpretations?


#1 - All the ARGs I've read about position the players as themselves (or a version of themselves), but take free range in altering or creating events/people within the setting. Pushing players into roles far different from themselves begins to leak into the realm of RPGs. ARGs are very similar to RPGs, granted. However, I don't know of any ARGs that have empowered the players with typical RPG elements, such as with an inventory, spells/powers, or player stats. For the most part, a player's "stats" are their personal knowledge and experience, and their "inventory" consists of real-life, tangible items such as email messages or packages. In the field of ARGs, what happens when a PM gives an item or power that isn't actually possessed by the player (i.e. a spaceship, knowledge of astrophysics, or computer hacking skills)? Can there be a successful blend of RPGs and ARGs?

#2 - rowan, you have addressed this point quite nicely by asking a more prominent question than my own: How does the puzzle relate to the story? I agree with you completely; if the puzzle's not related to the story, then why is it there? However, Nighthawk makes an excellent point:
Nighthawk wrote:
I mean, look at it: almost every ARG in one way or another involves ROT-13, Vigenere, Enigma, etc... Is that a common storytelling device? How about "stegging" or Camouflage?

Although, I have to agree with rowan's counter-point:
rowan wrote:
Sadly, it is a common storytelling device. But just because it's common, doesn't mean it's good. It's just an incredibly easy way to add 'mystery' and a 'puzzle' because that's what (IMHO) novice/unexperienced PMs think that is players want. And based upon the reaction that these type of games get, there are some players that want it, or at least will tolerate it, because its easy for them to move from one point of the story to another with relatively little effort. But, the more these games pop up, the more you begin to see (or at least I do) the same players doing the same things over and over again.

In the short time I've been around, I've noticed a ROT or a hex/binary puzzle in practically every ARG I've read about. Most of the time, the puzzle has no relation to anything within the story, but the ARG is a success regardless. There is no rule saying that an ARG must have more story than puzzles, or vice versa, or that the puzzles be integral to the storyline. Can we reasonably determine which aspects of ARGs are more enjoyable than others?

#3 - Aside from the larger issues in #1 and #2, how would you rate the puzzle in terms of complexity? This type of puzzle has probably been done plenty of times in the past with minor variations. How often have you seen this type of puzzle occur in ARGs?


I greatly appreciate any and all comments/criticism. Using the information I've gained here, I will put Puzzle Experiment #2 up on Sunday night, along with #1's difficult solution if it has not been found out by then.

Thanks to everyone who participated!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:49 pm
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Nighthawk
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee


Joined: 14 Jul 2007
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I would have put up my answer sooner, but I was busy creating a new Truetype font for... er... no reason.

Honest.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:36 pm
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Big_Larry
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Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 96
Location: Not there... maybe somewhere else.

Re: SOLUTION

Omega wrote:
Nighthawk wrote:
My guess would be 1395.

Using the subscript numbers as indexes, I'd take the digits from the image:

Image has 5319.

1-3 2-2 3-4 4-1

Therefore, 1st is 3rd digit, 2nd is 2nd digit, 3rd is 4th digit, 4th is 1st digit... 1-3-9-5

This is the correct solution and line of reasoning I was aiming for. There is a more difficult solve embedded in the puzzle which I will leave open until Sunday, for anyone interested. For now, here are some preliminary stats:

Estimated difficulty: 2 out of 10 (easy)
Estimated solve time: 48 hours
Estimated password attempts: 30

Actual difficulty: ~1 out of 10 (super easy)
Actual solve time: 10 hours, 19 minutes
Actual password attempts: ~16


Okay, so I understood the puzzle, but backwards. Ouch.

I feel kinda silly now, not having looked at it that way.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:52 pm
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rowan
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Re: SOLUTION

Omega wrote:
In the short time I've been around, I've noticed a ROT or a hex/binary puzzle in practically every ARG I've read about. Most of the time, the puzzle has no relation to anything within the story, but the ARG is a success regardless. There is no rule saying that an ARG must have more story than puzzles, or vice versa, or that the puzzles be integral to the storyline. Can we reasonably determine which aspects of ARGs are more enjoyable than others?

Makes me wonder what ARGs you have been looking at. There have been plenty of games that have puzzles integral to the story (and that don't rely on using 'clichéd' puzzle types either). Urban Hunt had wonderful true-to-life puzzles in it. Art of the Heist had a number of puzzles that could be considered clichéd, but yet were so cleverly placed in the form of innocuous zip files that they were believable. It also had a bunch of live missions that required you to think on your feet in order to accomplish a task (aka real life puzzle). I could be mistaken, but I don't believe Monster Hunter Club had any ROT puzzles. Instead it created its own cipher for use throughout the game that could only be easily read by creating your very own decoder square - something that was pretty fun. I still have mine tucked away in a box with all my other ARG swag. Eldritch Errors (when it's actually running) tends more towards social engineering solutions for roadblocks in the game.

True, there is no rule saying that there must be more story rather than puzzles and that puzzles need to make sense, but it is somewhat telling that in his article on Chaotic Fiction, Spacebass only makes mentions of puzzles twice, and neither time as part of the 'definition' of what CF is. Personally, to me, a set of puzzles without a story (or a very loosely defined story) would more than likely to be classified as a puzzle trail, since the puzzles seem to be the main focus instead of a story (or even the building of a community). Not that there's anything wrong with puzzle trails - I've done quite a few - but they do lack the things that make ARGs special.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:17 pm
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notgordian
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Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 1383
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Re: SOLUTION

Omega wrote:
#1 - All the ARGs I've read about position the players as themselves (or a version of themselves), but take free range in altering or creating events/people within the setting. Pushing players into roles far different from themselves begins to leak into the realm of RPGs. ARGs are very similar to RPGs, granted. However, I don't know of any ARGs that have empowered the players with typical RPG elements, such as with an inventory, spells/powers, or player stats. For the most part, a player's "stats" are their personal knowledge and experience, and their "inventory" consists of real-life, tangible items such as email messages or packages. In the field of ARGs, what happens when a PM gives an item or power that isn't actually possessed by the player (i.e. a spaceship, knowledge of astrophysics, or computer hacking skills)? Can there be a successful blend of RPGs and ARGs?


Deus City incorporated player statistics based on puzzle solves and interaction using a "credit" system for "purchasing" puzzles, "karma" system for judging the "morality" of decisions, and "prestige" system. Tons of other ARGs have incorporated scorekeeping systems (PXC comes to mind initially).

Brackin just released his dissertation on the Deus City game. (Dissertation here)

It's fairly rare and when it happens a few players tend to be a little possessive of information (you can see that if you check in on quite a few games running) but after a few days/weeks the players adjust and come to an understanding.

Omega wrote:
#2 - rowan, you have addressed this point quite nicely by asking a more prominent question than my own: How does the puzzle relate to the story? I agree with you completely; if the puzzle's not related to the story, then why is it there...


Admittedly a lot of games incorporate those tools -- but if you'd notice, the ones that make it past News & Rumors into CF with Potential or their own threads tend to at least attempt at justifying the decision. And a few of them (Find the Lost Ring comes to mind) seem to forgo those altogether. Everybody has different tastes, it's true...but I think that trend is telling.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:17 pm
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Omega
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Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 430
Location: Utah

Re: SOLUTION

rowan wrote:
Urban Hunt had wonderful true-to-life puzzles in it. Art of the Heist had a number of puzzles that could be considered clichéd, but yet were so cleverly placed in the form of innocuous zip files that they were believable. [...] I could be mistaken, but I don't believe Monster Hunter Club had any ROT puzzles. Instead it created its own cipher for use throughout the game that could only be easily read by creating your very own decoder square - something that was pretty fun. [...] Eldritch Errors (when it's actually running) tends more towards social engineering solutions for roadblocks in the game.

notgordian wrote:
Deus City incorporated player statistics based on puzzle solves and interaction using a "credit" system for "purchasing" puzzles, "karma" system for judging the "morality" of decisions, and "prestige" system. Tons of other ARGs have incorporated scorekeeping systems (PXC comes to mind initially).

Thanks for the ARG references, rowan and notgordian. I'll look into those soon as I can. Also, rowan, that Chaotic Fiction article is wonderful! Major thanks for that. Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:13 pm
Last edited by Omega on Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Rogi Ocnorb
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 4266
Location: Where the cheese is free.

I'm totally with rowan on this one.
That wasn't a very "elegant" puzzle, as presented.
It would have been fine as part of a puzzle trail, not connected to a campaign.
But, without explaining the spaced digits within the confines of the story being told, it's just not something you'd want to see in a running game.
Not that it absolutely couldn't be, though.
If that puzzle were presented, just as it is, as some kind of trial in a game, serving as say, a filter to keep out the riff-raff, then its presence might make some sense as part of the game's universe.
Lots of games have included a puzzle trail (that looks like nothing more than a collection of puzzles) which, ostensibly, was being used by the character that created it as a means of ensuring that only the "right" people could progress.
Players generally don't mind when this happens as there's a viable reason for being slapped in the face with puzzly goodness.
Puzzles in a game should be as organic as possible. Not easily recognized as a puzzle and as far from the "SOS" as is feasible where methodology is concerned. And "Different" doesn't necessarily mean "hard".
A game doesn't even need puzzles. But, it's not one I'll be playing.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:40 pm
Last edited by Rogi Ocnorb on Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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catherwood
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee

Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 4109
Location: Silicon Valley, CA

When the puzzle was first posted, I saw nothing useful in the photo, and assumed it was there for "flavor" or setting the atmosphere, not part of the puzzle.

When people said they saw numbers in the image, I loaded it and yet still saw nothing (probably because my monitor runs dark or low contrast), so i dismissed it as possibly an additional clue but not necessary. I still thought the puzzle was me standing in front of the panel, not also looking at a photograph.

Now that it's over, and I am on a different monitor, I *still* cannot really see numbers. If i took the image into Photoshop, I could probably enhance the color contrast, but that really makes this a stand-alone puzzle and not integrated into any alternate reality. I still don't understand how the crew sees the numbers, assuming I am one of the crew.

These comments have probably already been addressed; this is my first chance to reply with my own reactions.

edit to add: ahhh, if the image had been titled "scanner" or the scenario made it clear that this is what the crew was looking at on a screen -- or if the image itself had a frame to make it look like a screen display -- i might have given it more weight in the beginning.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:58 pm
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ncfriend
Unfettered


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 694
Location: Your imagination

catherwood wrote:


edit to add: ahhh, if the image had been titled "scanner" or the scenario made it clear that this is what the crew was looking at on a screen -- or if the image itself had a frame to make it look like a screen display -- i might have given it more weight in the beginning.


dittos catherwood... if the story had referenced a photo of the moon base mounted nearby.. or something.... but i dismissed the photo as mere stage setting. this is why many minds make for successful args!

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:41 am
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Agent Lex
Entrenched


Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 1188
Location: No longer London, still in England

I knew the image had to be relevant, just because it was there. Chekov's image, if you will. But I had trouble seeing anything at first glance, and even after it was posted that there were numbers in there it was difficult to see them. You really need a perfectly set monitor to see them, they are rather low contrast and very difficult to see without using Photoshop or similar.

I also agree that it feels more puzzle trail than ARG since the image isn't introduced at all, and the numbers are so out of place.

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:02 am
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Big_Larry
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Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 96
Location: Not there... maybe somewhere else.

Re: SOLUTION

Omega wrote:
Before the puzzle was posted, I wrote down a few topics I was hoping to address or learn more about.

Preliminary questions:
1. Does positioning the player within a predefined role (exploration crew member, in this case) seem awkward or out of place for an ARG? Does it hinder immersion or participation?


#1 - All the ARGs I've read about position the players as themselves (or a version of themselves), but take free range in altering or creating events/people within the setting. Pushing players into roles far different from themselves begins to leak into the realm of RPGs. ARGs are very similar to RPGs, granted. However, I don't know of any ARGs that have empowered the players with typical RPG elements, such as with an inventory, spells/powers, or player stats. For the most part, a player's "stats" are their personal knowledge and experience, and their "inventory" consists of real-life, tangible items such as email messages or packages. In the field of ARGs, what happens when a PM gives an item or power that isn't actually possessed by the player (i.e. a spaceship, knowledge of astrophysics, or computer hacking skills)? Can there be a successful blend of RPGs and ARGs?


I think it's only fair to say that RPGs and LARP have had a significant influence upon the development of ARGs. I honestly don't recall what brought me here originally, but I will say I came here from a significant background of RPGs and LARP. My first RPG was D&D in 1980(!), and my first LARP was a group of us playing TAG in 1984 or so. I've been involved with a number of RPGs and LARP groups since. As well, I've been involved in a couple of group improv storytelling sessions online in which I played a character (I'm sure there's a term for this, but I don't know what it might be). All of this has put me in a position where ARGs are the next logical step in my gameplay progression. I understand suspension of disbelief. I understand becoming a part of the game. I understand the curtain / fourth wall / whatever terminology you may use for the separation of the game from reality (thus "alternate" in ARG). I understand the role of the PM and the necessity of a variety of experiences in order to keep everyone involved. I understand the dynamics of group effort as opposed to individual effort.

Anyway, my point is this: I think you've set up an artificial dichotomy in this discussion by asking about "blending" RPGs and ARGs. How is having hacking skills in an ARG any different from having hacking skills in Cyberpunk 2020? How is having an amulet which protects you in an ARG any different than having an amulet that protects you in AD&D? How is being a character in an ARG any different than being a character in V:TM? I'm not saying all this is the same; on the contrary, I think these types of things are made infinitely more difficult to implement in an ARG, due to its very nature. But the fact of the matter is that for me, it all goes back to implementation and execution by the DM/GM/Storyteller/Puppetmaster. If the one running the game does it well, everything flows. If they don't, then just like a D&D session, people aren't going to come back.

Omega wrote:
2. Does it seem weird that the numbers in the image have no relation to the base or the introduction? What would be a better way of presenting these numbers?

#2 - rowan, you have addressed this point quite nicely by asking a more prominent question than my own: How does the puzzle relate to the story? I agree with you completely; if the puzzle's not related to the story, then why is it there? However, Nighthawk makes an excellent point:
Nighthawk wrote:
I mean, look at it: almost every ARG in one way or another involves ROT-13, Vigenere, Enigma, etc... Is that a common storytelling device? How about "stegging" or Camouflage?

Although, I have to agree with rowan's counter-point:
rowan wrote:
Sadly, it is a common storytelling device. But just because it's common, doesn't mean it's good. It's just an incredibly easy way to add 'mystery' and a 'puzzle' because that's what (IMHO) novice/unexperienced PMs think that is players want. And based upon the reaction that these type of games get, there are some players that want it, or at least will tolerate it, because its easy for them to move from one point of the story to another with relatively little effort. But, the more these games pop up, the more you begin to see (or at least I do) the same players doing the same things over and over again.

In the short time I've been around, I've noticed a ROT or a hex/binary puzzle in practically every ARG I've read about. Most of the time, the puzzle has no relation to anything within the story, but the ARG is a success regardless. There is no rule saying that an ARG must have more story than puzzles, or vice versa, or that the puzzles be integral to the storyline. Can we reasonably determine which aspects of ARGs are more enjoyable than others?


There is no way to unequivocally determine what the enjoyable aspects of ARGs are going to be. Different people have different tastes. I think it's necessary for the PM to be aware of these differences and plan accordingly. Don't get me wrong, I quite enjoy working puzzles and cracking ciphers, but they're not the be-all, end-all for any ARG for me. There has got to be a story that draws me in, as well. Some things do it (redloyola, Urban Hunt), and others turn me off completely (most recently, the trailhead with the torture video). Others are just the opposite. It's all about planning and knowing who your target audience is going to be.

As far as the puzzle at hand, as you saw in my logic, the numbers in the picture were a secondary consideration. A better way to implement them would be to set up a sound file (a "narrow band broadcast" from the station") full of static which includes the numbers being broadcast in morse code. As rowan said, implement it into the story. Floating disembodied numbers, while making for a relatively easy solve, do nothing for the "reality" part of ARG.

Omega wrote:
3. Does the line of reasoning for the puzzle solution make sense? Are there other solutions with valid interpretations?

#3 - Aside from the larger issues in #1 and #2, how would you rate the puzzle in terms of complexity? This type of puzzle has probably been done plenty of times in the past with minor variations. How often have you seen this type of puzzle occur in ARGs?


Once again, it's a relatively easy solve. I just never made it to the next step. However, for me, this logic:
Big_Larry wrote:
factoring the picture in with the metal plate:

5319 (from picture)
1 3 2 2 3 4 4 1 (from plate)

5 would be the third number
3 would be the second number
1 would be the fourth number
9 would be the first number

and thus, 9351 would be my next guess.

seems to be a valid interpretation, even though it isn't quite as complex as the actual solution.

For me, this puzzle, as presented, seems more puzzle trail or videogame (I can see this type of puzzle showing up in pretty much *any* survival horror videogame). A different implementation which stays more to the in-game scenario would make a huge difference.

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:31 am
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Rekidk
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Can I just pop-in and say that I think that testing your puzzle creation skills in a controlled environment is a great idea? Because it is. Better to learn what works and what doesn't now than have your players stumbling through horrid puzzle after horrid puzzle in a launched ARG. Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:11 pm
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Omega
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Joined: 07 Mar 2008
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Many delicious thanks to Rogi, catherwood, ncfriend, Lex, and Big_Larry for your feedback! I've learned so much with this first experiment alone. The level of response has been very reassuring of the community's support. Thank you! Smile
Big_Larry wrote:
I honestly don't recall what brought me here originally, but I will say I came here from a significant background of RPGs and LARP.

I have an RPG background myself (D&D, V:TM, Werewolf, M&M, couple others). I think the reason why I bring up the issue of blending RPGs and ARGs is because I have had so much fun with RPGs, and I feel like I want to bring that same enjoyment into ARGs. However, the more and more I play ARGs, and after reading a couple similar threads with this concept of merging the two genres, I'm beginning to think that bringing RPGs and ARGs together would do more harm than good. I've come to think of it like taking two things you love, say chocolate and cheese, and trying to mix them into something new (I pray no one's ever tried to mix cheese and chocolate; that would taste horrible!). It doesn't work. Chocolate is best when it's chocolate. Sometimes you have to leave behind the things you love in order to love something new.
Rekidk wrote:
Can I just pop-in and say that I think that testing your puzzle creation skills in a controlled environment is a great idea? Because it is. Better to learn what works and what doesn't now than have your players stumbling through horrid puzzle after horrid puzzle in a launched ARG. Smile

Thanks Rekidk! Gotta look before you leap. Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:37 am
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