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 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
Something that really annoys me throughout an ARG experience
Moderators: imbri, ndemeter
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natas
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Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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Location: Northwest Indiana
faeryqueen21 wrote:
People keep posting things like, "This PM is stupid", or "The PM doesn't know how to run a game", and "This game sucks".


I searched and haven't found those quotes anywhere in any thread for H2H.

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 1:30 pm
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pancito
I Have No Life


Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Posts: 2095
Location: In my happy place.
natas wrote:
faeryqueen21 wrote:
People keep posting things like, "This PM is stupid", or "The PM doesn't know how to run a game", and "This game sucks".


I searched and haven't found those quotes anywhere in any thread for H2H.

Don't think it was meant to be literal. There were certainly enough people saying this sort of thing early on, me among them. Then I voted with my feet.
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:02 pm
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Nighthawk
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee


Joined: 14 Jul 2007
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Location: Miami, Florida, USA, Earth

 		I myself have questioned the PM's ability and understanding on how things should be, but in my opinion somebody has to do that to keep the PM in check.
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:03 pm
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faeryqueen21
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Joined: 25 Sep 2007
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Location: Pasadena, CA

 		Oh no, it was meant to be literal. But I'm glad Natas was able to read all 150+ pages in 15 minutes to do a fact check on me. But he's right, I was incorrect. One quote I found ACTUALLY said:
Quote:
A game with the single stupidest PM I have ever seen


Consider me corrected.
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:08 pm
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natas
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faeryqueen21 wrote:
People keep posting things like, "This PM is stupid", or "The PM doesn't know how to run a game", and "This game sucks". There is a lot of that going on and it does make me wonder, why are you playing then?


maybe the reason I'm confused about your post is that you seem to be doing the old two-step. You claim multiple posts about flaming a PM and only cite one that occured over a week ago.

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:18 pm
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faeryqueen21
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Joined: 25 Sep 2007
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 		Yes, I cited only one. After you claimed they weren't "anywhere on any thread". Sorry if I also didn't want to take the time to reread the entire thread. Again, you have proven me to be a liar. Thank you.
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:21 pm
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natas
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 		You're welcome.

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:29 pm
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pancito
I Have No Life


Joined: 24 Feb 2008
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 		Okay, this just sucks. Two of my favorite people on this board (for very different reasons) doing the Catfight!

A lot of people were critical of 'Doc' especially in the early going (may still be, I don't know). Some of gave reasons, some didn't. So, natas, shut up.

Faeryqueen, don't tease the demons, please.

You may both now flame me.
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 11:45 pm
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LordIllidan
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Joined: 16 Jun 2007
Posts: 737
pancito wrote:
Okay, this just sucks. Two of my favorite people on this board (for very different reasons) doing the Catfight!

A lot of people were critical of 'Doc' especially in the early going (may still be, I don't know). Some of gave reasons, some didn't. So, natas, shut up.

Faeryqueen, don't tease the demons, please.

You may both now flame me.


I'm sorry, the correct response was having everyone crowd in a circle around the two and chant "Fight! Fight! Fight!" Just like back in high school Razz

In all seriousness, though... I agree with the first post. I haven't been keeping up with H2H, so I'm not going to get in on that fight... but if I were a puppetmaster failing epicly at my job, I'd like to know what the hell I'm doing wrong, as opposed to just seeing all my players say "EPIC PHAIL."

That doesn't teach me anything, and pretty much ensures my next game will be just as crappy.

PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 11:56 pm
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natas
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pancito wrote:
Okay, this just sucks. Two of my favorite people on this board (for very different reasons) doing the Catfight!

A lot of people were critical of 'Doc' especially in the early going (may still be, I don't know). Some of gave reasons, some didn't. So, natas, shut up.

Faeryqueen, don't tease the demons, please.

You may both now flame me.


Nice way to bring up a day old disagreement. And your purpose for your post was what again?

PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 12:15 am
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addlepated
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Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Posts: 1885
Location: Austin, Texas

 		9 hours does not equal one day, Natas. This is a public forum and any post that you make is available to be quoted and commented upon by other forum members. Nor does anyone need to explain his or her motivation for chiming in. Like some famous dead guy said when asked why he would climb Mt. Everest, "Because it's there."

There's some valid criticism on both sides here, but squabbling over who gets the last word is far from constructive. Please start taking the higher road.

ETA: That last point was directed to everyone.
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:30 am
Last edited by addlepated on Wed May 07, 2008 1:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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pancito
I Have No Life


Joined: 24 Feb 2008
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Location: In my happy place.
natas wrote:
Nice way to bring up a day old disagreement. And your purpose for your post was what again?

Actually it was to get the both of you (or at least you) throwing crap at me, so... 'Cause I know how you are, and it doesn't bother me. Kinda makes me feel like I'm not the only grouch around here. Sorry if I offended you.

ETA: @LordIllidan... Agree that saying this sucks doesn't help a PM, but it is a valid expression of frustration. If I critique a game negatively I try to give specific reasons why I feel it is having a tough time, as I did in HTH on a couple of occasions. But usually I just walk away from games I'm not enjoying. That doesn't help a PM either. Maybe the genre needs critics, like movies and books, but I don't see anyone doing it. Besides, that's not the kind of discussion anyone wants to have while a game is in progress. Do we take a break after solving a puzzle and say, "Oh, not bad, but I thought a better way to deliver the hint would have been by carrier pidgeon?" Meaningful critiques take the entire experience into consideration, I think. "The first 15 minutes of this movie was really good. Go see it." This is meaningless. And, in fact, this sort of discussion is implicitly (and occasionally explicitly) dicouraged in the game threads themselves. So I don't think you can expect a lot of helpful or relevant criticism during a game.

As thegreatpablo said, if a PM wants to hold a post-mortem, I think it's a great opportunity to disect the game, and it's a meaningful time to do it. But on the other hand I don't think PMs need to pay attention to much of anything that players say critique-wise while the game is running, esp. the "this sux" stuff, except to realize that some segment of their audience is frustrated. If you're an artist of any sort you have to have a thick skin for criticism and you have to learn which criticism understands what you are trying to do and is meaningful and which doesn't and isn't. You need to analyze/utilize the former and ignore the latter. If you can't do this, all criticism is meaningless to you and your development as an artist.
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:39 am
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Leyton Stone
I Have No Life

Joined: 08 Dec 2007
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Location: London (NOT Ontario!)

 		I'd like to thank Natas firstly for the PM, in which he privately belittled me without doing so on the boards because he ASSUMED I was referring directly to him... Which I believe is because of some negativity we had against each other (Apparently) during Project Ophiuchus.

I was getting agitated by the amount of it from anyone that was doing it, Natas... Not you personally; it's an ARG and people should figure out the Doc's going to be acting like a complete twat (Esp' those oldschool 48 ARGers). And I wasn't just talking about HTH either... This is a Meta forum, I was expressing my dislike for people doing that... It's my right to do so.

natas wrote:
How do you say "Please don't slap a game together in two weeks and expect us to like it and say 'Thank you for this waste of time'" in a constructive way?


As I explained to you and everyone else post-game. Chryo-Pharm was my first ever ARG, something which I didn't know existed until 6-8 months before creating the game. - It was also an experiment which I did alone, every bit myself without help from anybody. - And for anyone who disliked it, they didn't need to play along but several still did.

Edit: Not every grassroots ARG is going to be excellent, hell I've seen professional ERA's which have gone downhill and imploded quicker than C-P and ITFS due to lack of preperation.

But for you to put down my work, something I actually worked hard on because you were pissed off that I had something to say against your ego, was a little rough around the edges.
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:53 pm
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Will 2.0
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Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 1431
Location: Burlington, Vermont
natas wrote:
faeryqueen21 wrote:
People keep posting things like, "This PM is stupid", or "The PM doesn't know how to run a game", and "This game sucks".


I searched and haven't found those quotes anywhere in any thread for H2H.


Look for anything by myself and Nighthawk. I don't personally dislike the PM's, I just disagree with the way they do certain things but there are also things behind the curtain such as deadlines that control the speed of a game so I don't think they're making dumb moves per se. I just disagree with the way they make the game progress, that's all.
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:03 pm
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vpisteve
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Joined: 30 Sep 2002
Posts: 2441
Location: 1987

 		Shocked

Alright everyone, let's try to tone down the personal-type attacks going on in this thread. Things have definitely gone beyond the constructive criticism phase, and it's neither constructive nor tolerable for folks to start calling each other names. Talking meta about games is fine. Talking smack about people is not.

If any of you have personal issues, please deal with them privately.
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:17 pm
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