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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: General » ARG: Find the Lost Ring
[EMAIL] thecouberteam??
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MauroKing
Veteran


Joined: 18 Apr 2008
Posts: 76
Location: Buenos Aires,Argentina

 		About Miriam:

When James and Thermantia appeared, we asked Monica (and I think Diego too) if she has made a new friend recently. She mentioned this woman called Miriam that was working at her great aunt's house.
Someone (don't remember who) propose leaving the codexs or something similar at plain sight in Monica's aunt's house. So she did and Miriam stole them.
Monica confronted her and she confessed that she was hired by a member of TheO (who happened to be a man that came to the labyrinth training in Buenos Aires). She was very ashamed and she said she will help us. That's how we came up with the plan of the robbery. Miriam didn't stole the documents per se... we asked her to do it and the delivery was made.

I think that's all about Miriam.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:31 pm
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ariock
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 762
Location: SF East Bay
danteIL wrote:
Well, I disagree with that pretty strongly. This is a collaborative enterprise, and players constantly rely on each other to share information and coordinate action in order to make the game move forward. If someone posts here that they received an IG email containing critical information, then for the sake of my enjoyment of the game, I have to believe that the email is authentic and that they aren't lying. People have different knowledge and skill sets, and thus we rely on each other to use those skills and knowledge for our common goals. In a game like this, with multiple languages, I have to trust that people are translating information from other languages correctly -- I just don't have enough knowledge of Spanish or Mandarin to be sure for myself. Therefore, if you never trust what other players are doing or telling you, then whole sections of the game become completely open to question, which isn't very fun.


You are right. I wasn't thinking about the massive amount of information we're being fed via non-traditional methods. ie IM, personal emails, networking sites. I suppose if the PMs provide information in any of these ways, they need to also provide some method of independent verification. Some way that I can be sure it's from them.

I was talking to hmrpita after our failed attempt to get people to eat free cupcakes run a human labyrinth, and we went over the difference between this game-jack and the myriad others from ILB. In that game, everything that was in-game was quickly and easily verifiable from the in-game materials. So when people would say they were getting odd emails from the game, no one but the credulous believed they were real because there was no in-game corroboration.

In the old story of the boy who cried wolf, the boy is given at least two separate chances before the villagers stop coming when he calls.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:46 pm
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Canzonett
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Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 489
Location: Munich

 		I *do* enjoy this discussion, despite all the tensions involved. It's all about what makes ARGs so fascinating for me: How to define the border between game and reality, IG and OOG areas - how to discover, give and follow certain rules, how to develop or lose trust, how to verify or falsify information, how to interact with the complex social network of PMs, characters and players involved in the game.

I agree that this should be marked [META] - but please don't stop posting here. It's a joy to follow your discussion.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:37 pm
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Tenchizard
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Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 254

 		About the pics: Yes, they are incredibly blurry. I'm the worst photographer in the world. And yes, the man in the pics is an IG TheO agent (or at least they made me believe it), so he and Miriam are actors or whatever, and put that show in the museum so I could take those pics. I didn't have a chance to speak to Miriam as we couldn't let anyone relate us (Monica told me there could be more TheO members around), and after the mission I just went back to Monica to tell her how everything went. Here's a video Monica took of me while giving the document to Miriam:
http://www.vimeo.com/1108783

there's another video, but it's just me really nervous trying to explain what I did, and it's in spanish, of course Razz

PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:23 pm
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dreamerblue
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Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 710
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 		This is like tit for tat...James spied on meeting between Noriko, Ranger D, Ariock and hmrpita, so why shouldn't we spy on one of their meet-ups, right Smile?

I'll be interested to see how much further they take this...why hire actors to be Miriam and the TheO agent if it's just going to be dropped?

PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:03 pm
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VictorSueiro
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Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 229
Quote:
This is supposed to be a safe place for people to play the game and talk about the game. But this place is outside the game.


Sorry, maybe i dont understood the rules of this forum.
But, What its exactly outside and inside in an ARG? I think that we can discuss this point an entire life...
Maybe i dont like to participate in this kind of OOG forums. Maybe this place is not for me.
I am really sorry about all this. I have another point of view.
Next time i participate in an ARG, maybe i will try to play out of unfiction way.
I am new in all this, and i think that we (all new players) have to learn a lot of things from the old ones. But you have to hear us, because maybe you also have something new to learn.
Since now, i will accept this forums "rules".

PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:24 pm
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danteIL
Unfictologist


Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1990
VictorSueiro wrote:
Maybe i dont like to participate in this kind of OOG forums. Maybe this place is not for me.
I am really sorry about all this. I have another point of view.


Can you explain your point of view a little better, then??

PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:36 pm
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VictorSueiro
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Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 229
danteIL wrote:
VictorSueiro wrote:
Maybe i dont like to participate in this kind of OOG forums. Maybe this place is not for me.
I am really sorry about all this. I have another point of view.


Can you explain your point of view a little better, then??


The limits between OOG and IG are really weak in this game, and thats ok. I think that that is a must be in an ARG.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:17 am
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ariock
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 762
Location: SF East Bay
VictorSueiro wrote:
Quote:
This is supposed to be a safe place for people to play the game and talk about the game. But this place is outside the game.


Sorry, maybe i dont understood the rules of this forum.
But, What its exactly outside and inside in an ARG? I think that we can discuss this point an entire life...
Maybe i dont like to participate in this kind of OOG forums. Maybe this place is not for me.
I am really sorry about all this. I have another point of view.
Next time i participate in an ARG, maybe i will try to play out of unfiction way.
I am new in all this, and i think that we (all new players) have to learn a lot of things from the old ones. But you have to hear us, because maybe you also have something new to learn.
Since now, i will accept this forums "rules".


You appear to be getting defensive. So rather than saying what I think, I'll ask some questions:

This is from the Terms Of Service: "These forums are a community; users should respect the other participants in this community. In general, users should conduct themselves in respectful, appropriate ways that encourage inclusion and cooperation. Our users express a diverse range of opinion and knowledge, and disagreements can (and should) be handled in civilized ways."

Note that those are "shoulds." And you may interpret them differently than I do. Do you think you were being inclusive and cooperative?

Also: "Users are explicitly forbidden to post as characters, whether in the capacity of a registered member or a forum guest, to post in a fashion designed to covertly influence or otherwise finesse players, or in an attempt to move a game forward. In this sense, the Unfiction forums are "out of game" and are not to become part of the "in game" experience or to be manipulated by Puppetmasters. This also pertains to people attempting to mislead other players ("hijacking" the game). "

Do you think you have mislead us? Or manipulated us?

You seem to be threatening to leave. I don't want you or anyone else to leave. It's hard enough getting players for this thing, let alone people who are as enthusiastic as you and Tenchizard and the rest of the couberteam.

On the other hand, I'm a little offended that you'd deceive us and then tell us we've got something to learn. You say we (I assume you mean me?) have something new to learn. You've apparently taught danteIL not to trust you. Is that what you intended to teach? I don't think so.
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"It says, 'Let's BEE friends'...and there's a picture of a bee!" -Ralph Wiggum
When the Apocalypse comes, it'll be in base64.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:54 am
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AUZ505
Unfictologist


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 1599
Location: Germany
VictorSueiro wrote:

Maybe i dont like to participate in this kind of OOG forums. Maybe this place is not for me.
I am really sorry about all this. I have another point of view.
Next time i participate in an ARG, maybe i will try to play out of unfiction way.


I am not sure if it is possible at all to play an arg without an OOG place to discuss things. Even the couberteam made up a "META-discussion" community (why haven't you that done in here or at least posted here that people can join by sending an email to Monica?).
Looking at all the others args pleayed in the past or now, I could not imagine that this is possible without a forum and a community like this.

Already at the beginning of FTLR I posted a thread about the idea to play an arg without an OOG part, but unfortunatly people have not had the need to discuss this in detail to that time. But that would be a totally new concept, were you really have to think about who you can trust...

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:05 am
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vpisteve
Asshatministrator


Joined: 30 Sep 2002
Posts: 2441
Location: 1987

 		Well, this whole discussion makes me sad. VictorSueiro, you have absolutely nothing to apologize or feel bad for, in my opinion. You were asked by the game to keep information secret. You chose to do so, and in that, you decided to feign ignorance about the whole subject, so as to help give the impression you knew nothing about it.

That was your choice, and that's how you play, and that's absolutely great. You couldn't anticipate how the player community might react to your actions, but the point is, you shouldn't have had to.

When we play ARGs, we put our trust in the developers' hands. We think (and usually rightly so) that if we follow their instructions, that everything will be ok, that they'll take care of us. They wouldn't put us in a dangerous or embarrassing situation, would they?

Thing is, they did. I don't blame you or anybody else here. This is a design problem, not a player problem. There has been plenty of precedent to see that asking players to keep secrets from one another is fraught with peril at best, as you can't control how players will play, and feelings can get hurt, and fun play becomes not-so-fun any more, and if you're going to do so, you'd better design very, very carefully. But (imho) it's usually better to avoid pitting players against each other at all costs, at least as far as ARGs are concerned.

But they didn't.

And they should have known better.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:28 pm
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ariock
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
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Location: SF East Bay
vpisteve wrote:
Well, this whole discussion makes me sad. VictorSueiro, you have absolutely nothing to apologize or feel bad for, in my opinion. You were asked by the game to keep information secret. You chose to do so, and in that, you decided to feign ignorance about the whole subject, so as to help give the impression you knew nothing about it.

That was your choice, and that's how you play, and that's absolutely great. You couldn't anticipate how the player community might react to your actions, but the point is, you shouldn't have had to.

When we play ARGs, we put our trust in the developers' hands. We think (and usually rightly so) that if we follow their instructions, that everything will be ok, that they'll take care of us. They wouldn't put us in a dangerous or embarrassing situation, would they?

Thing is, they did. I don't blame you or anybody else here. This is a design problem, not a player problem. There has been plenty of precedent to see that asking players to keep secrets from one another is fraught with peril at best, as you can't control how players will play, and feelings can get hurt, and fun play becomes not-so-fun any more, and if you're going to do so, you'd better design very, very carefully. But (imho) it's usually better to avoid pitting players against each other at all costs, at least as far as ARGs are concerned.

But they didn't.

And they should have known better.

Shocked Shocked Shocked
Um. Are you sure? How do you know that? Have you read the threads on the Couberteam google group? Did you know the Meta group where they were doing all their planning was made before the "official" Monica group? Or that they were surprised when she made it? You've made kind of a strong accusation, that the designer put them in a dangerous or embarrassing situation. From what I've seen, they did a lot of this on their own in a place that a PM couldn't even go to check on them (unlike Unfiction). Do you have some information that I don't?
_________________
"It says, 'Let's BEE friends'...and there's a picture of a bee!" -Ralph Wiggum
When the Apocalypse comes, it'll be in base64.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:09 pm
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VictorSueiro
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Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 229
Quote:
Um. Are you sure? How do you know that? Have you read the threads on the Couberteam google group? Did you know the Meta group where they were doing all their planning was made before the "official" Monica group?


Thats not true. We created a Group, and, at the same moment, Monica Create another. So, we deceided to have an IG and a Meta group. Is there any wrong in this?

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:35 pm
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ariock
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 762
Location: SF East Bay
VictorSueiro wrote:
Quote:
Um. Are you sure? How do you know that? Have you read the threads on the Couberteam google group? Did you know the Meta group where they were doing all their planning was made before the "official" Monica group?


Thats not true. We created a Group, and, at the same moment, Monica Create another. So, we deceided to have an IG and a Meta group. Is there any wrong in this?


The first post I can see is May 15.
That's also the day that the group mentions starting to "spread the rumors"
On the 16th, Javier notices Monica's group.
The sixteenth is also when the emails started going out to the people on Mei Hui's email list.

I've got no other information apart from what is on that group and what you guys posted here. If you can show me an email where Monica told you to send out the fake emails, or to continue to deny the fact that players made up the group, I'd like to see it. I'd certainly apologize for being too harsh at that point.

I have asked you to put yourself in our shoes, and you didn't respond to that, but instead responded to this, which wasn't directed at you. I will take that as your answer.
_________________
"It says, 'Let's BEE friends'...and there's a picture of a bee!" -Ralph Wiggum
When the Apocalypse comes, it'll be in base64.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:59 pm
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danteIL
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Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1990
vpisteve wrote:
You were asked by the game to keep information secret.


This is the part that seems most confusing, to me.

It appears that Monica asked them to keep their actions secret, hidden from Theo. She apparently even went so far as to create a secret group for the couberteam so that they could plan their activities. From an IG perspective, that makes perfect sense.

What is confusing to me is why this was simultaneously interpreted to mean that it should be kept secret more generally as well. That is, that the need for secrecy was understood as coming from the PMs, and not just from Monica. Unfortunately, Monica herself has no way to make this distinction, and it is not like anyone could ask her about it. Being asked "by the game" has very different consequences, though, depending on how you interpret who is doing the asking.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:07 pm
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