unforum

[vpisteve]

Ariock, how do I know what? That this is a player issue and not a design issue?

Here's the thing. You can't just say that someone's "Playing it wrong." It's ultimately up to the developers to scrutinize design decisions that they make to try to anticipate any negative consequences of that design, especially for the players. It's not as much up to the players to do this. They play as they play, and in this case I'm pretty sure there was no nefarious intent.

My point is that when things go bad, we shouldn't blame the players as much as the design. Players can't break a game that's not already broken! I seriously don't see any actions that VictorSueiro or anyone else took that were malicious or not in the spirit of the game as they understood it to be at the time.

[Weezel]

Let me fill in some gaps here. Ariock only has limited information because I made him a member of the META group as he wanted to see what was going on.

This initially started with CCs only. We were directly sending each other messages with a hughe CC list, which included both Monica and Diego and in fact they initiated part of the discussion.

Then, in those non-group messages, we decided to make a group to make it easier to facilitate communication. I created a group. I called it 'couberteam', in the day it took everyone to join, Monica created a group on the spanish google site called 'thecouterteam'. We had two groups with the same members. We removed Monica and Diego from our group and joined their group (after figuring out the intricacies of joining a group in a foreign language instruction with standard google accounts vs. google.es.).

In fact, for the first two days there was confusion because the names of the group were almost identical! I then changed our header to say META very clearly, so folks in our group didn't accidentally send to the wrong contact, and asked Diego to add a prefix to his group as well.

So none of that is documented in the official archive because it was all happening in private email CCs as we got the groups established.

I'd like to put this to rest myself, but it looks like if I don't dredge up all the archives, including those initial emails and post all of their contents, we're going to have gaps, including what was asked to be done by the PM controlled characters.

Do I need to do that?

I've avoided UF for days because of this fiasco, leaving a really bitter taste in my mouth.. and I was a very active player before this.

[ariock]

[AUZ505]

[VictorSueiro]

Take a look to Jane's last post:

http://www.avantgame.blogspot.com/

[Khaos]

[ariock]

[Cineball]

[META!!!]Seeing as this is my first ARG as a player, I love the analogy of the sandbox and I'm having just as much fun corresponding with players (although only a few) from around the world as I am the ones that live in my city (that's right San Francisco, I'm officially claiming you as mine!). I'm just now, having caught on a very little more to how it all works, starting to make it more my own. I don't have to follow what everyone I'm working with follows because when I don't they lend a hand and fill me in. The community aspect isn't what I expected would be the most interesting part of the experience for me, but it is quickly becoming that.

[ariock]

I said I wouldn't respond here, and I wasn't going to. Especially because I could respond directly to the blog post itself.
So I wrote and wrote.
Then I hit submit.

And it was gone. But why? Ohhhh. comments were turned off before I could post. At midnight. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned in IRC that I was planning to respond.

Anyway. My outlet gone, I'm back in here.

I'll be brief.

1. Couberteam was Never in-game. Jane just confirmed that the group was player created.

2. The Sandbox.

[Khaos]

[Canzonett]

A short burlesque intermezzo: I guess what irritated me most was that this group suggested to have to connection to Pierre de Coubertin, but couldn't even spell his name resp. added a female ending to his surname ("Coubertine"), if I remember correctly.

[danteIL]

Interesting, but in her zeal to proselytize the "hey! we're all having chaotic fun!!" idea, somehow the "English-speaking" players have started to become the reactionary bad-guys in all of this -- "down with your fun! Play our way or else!!!" In the current context, though, wasn't it the case that the english players were the ones who were being forced to play in a variant of the game that we didn't even know exist? But I'm glad that Jane is enjoying seeing her creation come to life in different ways around the globe. I just wouldn't call it the "same game" unless one shares her omnipotent vantage point.

This is going to be heresy to say out loud, but after participating in Lost Rings, I've decided that I really don't like Jane's philosophies about games.

[thebruce]

Stop the world. Something's wrong. Ariock, I generally agree

-- primarily, in that I don't think Jane addressed all the issues, let alone that she'd be a 'final say' in the how-to's of ARGs (not that she thinks she is of course).

From my perspective, the issue simply comes down to the fact that players posted at UF purposely misleading (feigning ignorance) about something. You could say it's like one taking someone else's sand to build a castle and pretending not to know where the sand went. This time, maybe they were going to reveal the castle and hope everyone would share and play with it, but they were found out before the castle was finished. Or something like that. =P

Point is, yes it's one big sandbox, but we play nicely sharing the same sand. People can do what they want in the sandbox (gameplay 'styles') but no one likes players pitted against each other. The feel of UF is community, and sharing, and when players (here) feel deceived by fellow players, hell breaks loose.

I'm certain it's not about gameplay styles (Ariock isn't upset about what they were doing), it's not about chaotic fiction, chaotic community, it's simply that here, people were mislead and confused.

We trust that if something new is in-game, the PMs will reveal it as such at the right time for everyone who's playing, for all communities. Ultimately "In-game" is defined by the PMs.

So while I agree with the sentiment of 'embracing the chaotic community', it leaves a number of potential issues that are just nuts to deal with. The only thing I can agree with on that point is about the dynamic relationship of the Player-PM interaction. Understanding that the game is also the players' game, and not to shut out player creativity - across the entire player-base, regardless of how disconnected. But avoiding the 'confusion factor' (which can turn into hostility depending on context) I think is a responsbility on everyone's shoulders - the PMs should be careful not to make confusion -too- easy, and the players in a sense should 'watch out' for each other; which really, is a huge factor of "community" and the "hive mind" - working together (as opposed to effectively against each other).


Ultimately, I think in the end, most if not all of the controversy here could have been avoided if there was no player deception at Unfiction. To wit, if we had found out some other community had done this, and we were effectively 'tricked' (indirectly, as in seeing it in the 'game space') into thinking player-made content was in-game, I don't think there'd be nearly as much ranting going on.
So again, it's not about how other people decide to play the game - it's the fact that we were mislead in the forum, and confused about what was going on (though the latter may have just been poor player 'design' =P)

Jane's got a way with words, certainly, and I generally agree with her sentiments, but I think she barely missed the mark on this one... but that's just my opinion

[runeix ftlr]

Personaly i dont have a problem with what the cuberteam did.

I can see why people disagree with their actions, and they have the right to do so.

and yes i would have been nice to get a heads up about what people are doing.

I think that it's great to see players create content and make puzzels for other people, but if you dont think so, or you want to stick just to strickly IG materail it think that those creating the puzzels should use OOG outlets like this to let everyone know.

Now with that said, i know everyone have a right to an opionion, and this is a important issue within the ARG comunity, but i think its time that we put this behind us and start working togeather on Finding The Lost Ring.

Matt.

[Canzonett]

Another comment to to Jane's blog entry: Not every player gets the chance to experience all possible kinds of game styles resp. game modes. There's only one James to ambush (go, San Francisco!), there's only one Lucie to join for labyrinth training in Paris (and only one Markus who seems to have vanished from this earth's surface again and hasn't replied to mails for almost two weeks now ... wonder if TheO has got hold of him again?). Therefore, it's essential to *share* the different gaming experiences even with those who don't get the chance to take part in certain activities - how much fun would this be if people didn't post their photos on Flickr, their videos on YouTube etc.?