Return to Unfiction unforum
 a.r.g.b.b 
FAQ FAQ   Search Search 
 
Welcome!
New users, PLEASE read these forum guidelines. New posters, SEARCH before posting and read these rules before posting your killer new campaign. New players may also wish to peruse the ARG Player Tutorial.

All users must abide by the Terms of Service.
Website Restoration Project
This archiving project is a collaboration between Unfiction and Sean Stacey (SpaceBass), Brian Enigma (BrianEnigma), and Laura E. Hall (lehall) with
the Center for Immersive Arts.
Announcements
This is a static snapshot of the
Unfiction forums, as of
July 23, 2017.
This site is intended as an archive to chronicle the history of Alternate Reality Games.
  

The time now is Mon Nov 11, 2024 10:39 pm
All times are UTC - 4 (DST in action)		 View posts in this forum since last visit
View unanswered posts in this forum
Calendar
 Forum index » Administration » General
#unfiction
View previous topicView next topic
Page 2 of 7 [103 Posts]   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 Next
Author Message
Vecheeso
Unfettered


Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Posts: 337
Location: Titusville, FL

 		Re: ...
air_wick wrote:
what has changed in the last week, after three years of what was more-or-less equilibrium? I certainly feel less welcome there already, and I'm not the only one, judging by the posts above.


This hits the nail on the head. The fact is that by "not pointing fingers" and not establishing any new rules, you have effectively told everyone who is on #unfiction "You're being watched...". This has induced paranoia in many people, myself included, as I am usually one to bring up or add to a sexual topic.

So, now, at least for me, I'm concerned that someone will dislike something I say, and i may be kicked. Of course, anything vastly inappropriate is usually deserving of such an action, as IRC is not an anarchy, and Ops have a position for a reason, the fact is, paranoia. Will someone who i dont know that doesnt like what i say in chat kick/ban me for something and only have to point to this new "awareness" post as proof that they were justified?

I honestly think that there have been no problems in the chat, and I have a riotous good time. However, I believe that being ambiguous about what has changed in the last week, and who has been the source of these messups, and who has claimed to see such things, is leading to more general paranoia in chat, and a lot less good ol' fun chatting.

This, is, of course, just my personal opinions, take that to mean whatever you like.
_________________
Brute Force Social Engineer (ty j5)
Currently Playing: The Aporia Agathon Project, Deleted, Eklipse Global

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:08 pm
 View user's profile AIM Address
 Back to top 
xnbomb
Unfettered


Joined: 13 Oct 2003
Posts: 660
Location: J302B S8JDC

 		Re: ...
redct wrote:
You have a good point: what is the point of an arbitrary policy change after it's worked all this time?

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

The notion that this is an arbitrary policy change is inaccurate. As vpisteve has reiterated, no policy change of any kind has been put forth. Let me expand on that:

air_wick makes a valid point about moral relativism and how different people consider different sorts of conduct to be appropriate or inappropriate in various circumstances. And in one sort of ideal world, we would never have to balance the considerations of what happens when multiple persons' standards aren't in agreement.

In the context of #unfiction, some of us take responsibility for more than just our own conduct. Channel operators also take on the additional responsibility of trying to make sure that all feel comfortable and welcome. That includes people who think open conversations about sexuality are appropriate there, and also those who think they are not. It's difficult (or impossible) to satisfy everyone when there is a diversity of opinion. Channel operators do have to apply some subjective judgment. They take on the responsibility of keeping the channel as comfortable as possible for all, and when they have a concern, it's appropriate for them to voice it.

The notion that by trying to fulfill this responsibility, a channel operator is trying to impose their personal position is unfair in one sense, and exactly right in another. When I read vpisteve's posts in this topic, I don't see him writing, "it should be like this because that is how I would prefer it." I see something more along the lines of "it should be like this because that's what I think is appropriate for the channel, and part of my role is to provide guidance on what that is." Channel operators have to apply their judgment.

Trying to reduce this to the statement and application of a rigid rule set, and pointing out that no one has been admonished or kicked or banned for particular conduct in the past, and by implying that vpisteve, just by having expressed some concern over a recent pattern of conduct, is making a big change is a little disingenuous in the context of how the channel has been managed. It's true, our style of management is pretty hands off. We don't (and won't) have a rigid set of rules. And if we see something that we find concerning, we'll say something about it, as vpisteve has.

If anything has changed, it's that some recent conduct has been of the sort that has raised some concerns with channel operators. Moreso than many users, some of the channel ops spend a lot of time with their eye on what's happening in the channel. They may see things that you haven't seen, and the frequency with which they keep an eye on the conversation gives them a bigger sample of what's going on in the channel. But more to the point, they are the ones that have to apply their judgment in terms of dealing with what they perceive to be a problem.

Now, if your (being any reader of this post's) position is that any time there is going to be someone who is applying their judgment to your (and other users') conduct, and that by expressing a concern (as vpisteve has) that this would make you feel less welcome, I'm not sure what to do about that. #unfiction is a channel that has operators, and one of the responsibilities they feel that they have is to apply their judgment as to what is appropriate and what is inappropriate conduct. In general, this gets applied with great minimalism: Very little gets said in the way of warnings / admonitions to specific users etc. because that's generally pretty counter-productive; usually things seem to sort themselves out just fine (even moreso with kicking or banning, except in rather extreme circumstances). But on some occasions, a little reminder is deemed (in the necessarily subjective judgment of a channel op or ops) necessary and appropriate.

I'm pretty sure that nothing in my post has addressed the specific concerns of several posts in this topic. But, I hope that what my post at least does is explains why this has been handled the way it has: Namely, this is how we have managed #unfiction for a long time, and it is *that* rare that an operator feels the need to make an announcement like vpisteve did, because it is almost never necessary.
_________________
My location is a little tricky, but sooner or later, you'll get the knack.

{J302B S8JDC, 8996N M8L4W, 92D40 Q1JX5, 4PPRN R2B97, 8DC7C NZJNV, 8CH7V Q891H}

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:25 pm
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
Vecheeso
Unfettered


Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Posts: 337
Location: Titusville, FL

 		Re: ...
xnbomb wrote:
#unfiction is a channel that has operators, and one of the responsibilities they feel that they have is to apply their judgment as to what is appropriate and what is inappropriate conduct.


this is exactly my point. with no basic ruleset in place, and will never be in place, there is nothing but a general idea of 'figure it out and decide for yourself' as to whats appropriate or not for the channel. which means that each Op may not have the same ideas or agreements with the others for what is and isnt bad.

bringing up concerns is great, but as i said, without saying what IS and ISNT appropriate we are at the mercy of an Op's personal ideals and beliefs system, which means that what one finds or deems 'inappropriate' and the other Ops see is inappropriate, may not be consistent.

just a thought *shrug* but at this point im probably talking about arbitrary semantics that dont matter lol

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:36 pm
Last edited by Vecheeso on Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:48 pm; edited 2 times in total
 View user's profile AIM Address
 Back to top 
redct
Entrenched


Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 1233

 		Between air_wick and xnbomb, I think my position on this has been summed up.

Good luck and have fun in #unfiction. I'm out of this. Smile
_________________
Playing and lurking: I'm too lazy to keep track
someone in IRC: see, sometimes instead of a man and woman loving each other, men and men love each other. this usually happens in prison, but sometimes in real life


PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:40 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
air_wick
Greenhorn

Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 9
Location: Toronto, Canada

 		Re: ...
xnbomb wrote:

And in one sort of ideal world, we would never have to balance the considerations of what happens when multiple persons' standards aren't in agreement.


I just wanted to make clear that I wasn't implying we lived in an ideal world. In fact, the whole point was an appeal to figure out what's changed in the last little while.

xnbomb wrote:
Channel operators do have to apply some subjective judgment. They take on the responsibility of keeping the channel as comfortable as possible for all, and when they have a concern, it's appropriate for them to voice it.


Having administered an IRC server on a large network (read: not simply an individual channel) myself, I agree that subjective judgment is very important. Those judgments, however, lack any sort of meaning without considering the context surrounding them.

Quite simply, I don't think that the arbitrary will of some individuals should take precedence over what the community has decided to consider reasonable. Further to that (and most important!), in the case of individuals entrusted with responsibilities regarding maintaining that community, there is an even greater impetus for those people to stay tuned-in to the general acceptability of whatever is at issue. This enables them to make decisions more reflective of the opinion of the community.

I have seen communities in real life lose valuable people because of "rare" things like this. Clearly, people are being affected in different ways - some of us choose to discuss it (positive), some people have indeed chosen to simply stay away (not so positive).

I'm not saying people haven't done their job, or tried their best.

What I am saying is that until an issue like this does more harm than good, there is no need to regulate it - and further, it is wasteful and hurtful to a community to do so needlessly.

AW

edit 2: spelling, added signature

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:12 pm
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
Euchre
uF Game Warden


Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 3342

 		If we won't have any sort of rules - even just guidelines to help define what might be acceptable or not - at least maybe we can ask that the ops use a decision framework that has some logic to it. I think it beats 'gut instincts' which lead to too many arbitrary results.



I know there's a loop in there, but if you start going around that loop it's time to stop acting alone as an op and seek some consensus. As for figuring out if someone is offended, they will either say so or give some other sign for the observant. If in doubt, you could of course just ask someone how they feel. Sure beats going around making generic 'Please be nice' statements after the fact which only really serve to just generally confuse and chill the atmosphere.

Or you could just ignore all of this and keep waiting for some form of frog soup.
_________________
Any sufficiently plausible fiction is indistinguishable from reality.
Any sufficiently twisted reality is indistinguishable from fiction.
Welcome to the new world of entertainment.
ŠEuchre 2007

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:25 pm
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
redct
Entrenched


Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 1233

 		...
That's an awesome flow chart.
_________________
Playing and lurking: I'm too lazy to keep track
someone in IRC: see, sometimes instead of a man and woman loving each other, men and men love each other. this usually happens in prison, but sometimes in real life


PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:55 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
air_wick
Greenhorn

Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 9
Location: Toronto, Canada

 		$flowchart += 5

PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:50 am
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
jamesi
Sentient Being


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 2195
Location: Canadia

 		Re: ...
air_wick wrote:
Quite simply, I don't think that the arbitrary will of some individuals should take precedence over what the community has decided to consider reasonable. Further to that (and most important!), in the case of individuals entrusted with responsibilities regarding maintaining that community, there is an even greater impetus for those people to stay tuned-in to the general acceptability of whatever is at issue. This enables them to make decisions more reflective of the opinion of the community.

I have seen communities in real life lose valuable people because of "rare" things like this. Clearly, people are being affected in different ways - some of us choose to discuss it (positive), some people have indeed chosen to simply stay away (not so positive).


I'm part of the community, and so is vpisteve. I agree wholeheartedly with his concerns. Do our concerns not matter in this discussion? That's how it feels to me. Confused

(Also, xnb sums up a lot of my personal thoughts quite well, especially the 'little reminder' part)
_________________
Digital Trail | Twitter | Retired ARGFest-o-Con 2012 Project Manager

PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:17 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website
 Back to top 
air_wick
Greenhorn

Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 9
Location: Toronto, Canada

 		Re: ...
jamesi wrote:
I'm part of the community, and so is vpisteve. I agree wholeheartedly with his concerns. Do our concerns not matter in this discussion? That's how it feels to me. Confused


Administrative or not, if you are a part of the community, your concerns should (and do, in my eyes) matter - as a contribution to the whole, like everyone else's concerns. Nobody's opinion is more or less important than anyone else's. It sucks to feel not included, which is happening here on both ends. I think everyone still thinks pretty highly of each others' opinions. Discussion is far more productive than hurt feelings, and perhaps that's why this thread is at two pages. For my part, I certainly hope my comments haven't contributed to any hurt feelings. My aim is essentially to figure out what is expected of us all without taking sides.

What I see happening is that the general (ie. overriding, majority) opinion of the #uf channel community regarding what is acceptable is not being reflected by the administrative body of people who are the ones with the authority (implicit or not!) and whom we all trust to maintain it. To that end, I would argue that without rules of some kind -constructed by the community at large, and open to change should the community see fit-, it is impossible to have a -consistent- idea of what is acceptable, like Vecheeso said.

I can agree that having "no rules" is a great idea in some situations, but I think it's evident at this point that we need at least a conflict resolution system.

I stand behind Euchre's flowchart idea, not only because it's awesome, but because it's reasonable and looks open to modification. I also think everyone who hangs out there should be involved in creating the guidelines we would all abide by.

At this point, I believe I've made my opinions known/said all I have to say, and will be stepping out of this. I appreciate everyone who took the time to read what I had to say.

Peace,
AW

(edited for clarity/brevity)

PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:23 am
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
addlepated
Unfictologist


Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Posts: 1885
Location: Austin, Texas

 		I don't even think that present minors need to be a prerequisite for toning down the conversation in there. I've been staying out of #uf a bunch lately because it seems that it's all too often that I'll pop in and run into a conversation about very explicit sexual topics.

A few years ago, the general rule on #uf was to keep conversation clean and no cussin'. Over the years, the no cussin' part has sort of gone by the wayside. Do we really need to chat about self-love and what holes to put what body parts (or non-body parts) in, during which time of the month, while chanting the F-word every other line?

Not only does that conversation not appeal to me, but it's gotten to the point that I automatically hide the screen when my kids walk by in case they glance at the computer, due to some of the stuff that scrolls past at any given time. I've been spending most of my not-very-plentiful IRC time in other channels and avoiding #uf, which is a shame because I miss it. Confused I'm not the only one who's been avoiding it.

Maybe there _should_ be an "anything goes" channel where conversations can redirect. Just like if people start having a conversation about the latest episode of a television show, someone will remind them about #ctu and they can take it there to where people are interested in that sort of thing and might want to join in, and the people in #uf who don't watch that show don't have to see it.
_________________
Give a man a match, and he is warm for a night. Light a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:41 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
Euchre
uF Game Warden


Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 3342

 		I have no idea what #ctu is about, probably because it's just a channel name in a list in the #unfiction channel topic info without any clue as to what it is for. I still don't know how TV program episodes = ctu. See how a total lack of clarity gets us nowhere?

As for minors, it was brought up as a criteria of concern in the discussion, so I used it in the flow chart. That component is easily removed without having any major impact on the rest. The point of the flow chart is that an objective framework can be laid out into which one can inject information and arrive at a conclusion about what to do - or what will happen.

My experience in #unfiction has been that it's periodically a harsh, obnoxious, basically anything goes sort of place. It's not very lively most of the time, but then hardly any IRC chat channels I've been to lately are. (Chat on the internet is in a way dying, but that's another topic unto itself.) I've fairly rarely seen any real discussion of a particular ARG or CF or the genre in general. It was basically painted as a social hangout, bearing no particular relationship to this site other than a concurrence of membership. With that picture in mind, I simply approach it for what it is and expect to just deal with whatever comes about. I can always just leave of course. If this wasn't the picture that was intended to be painted of the #unfiction channel, you can see how far it's strayed from whatever was originally intended. I'll leave it up to you to figure out how it got there, but the recipe for frog soup is rather simple.

I spend time most weekends in the #techguy chat on dslextreme.com's IRC server where Leo Laporte's radio show is the topic. Leo actively uses the chat to help provide feedback and content in real time for the show. He has rules, admins, mods - and it pretty much stays civil. People know what to expect. The topic is not straight jacketed just to what's currently being covered on the show, but does a good job of being focused on the world of technology. Expectations are set, a certain atmosphere is expected, and any corrective actions are handled quickly and fairly quietly. Yes, it's probably a narrow example as compared to #unfiction - but is it really? If #unfiction was meant to be centered around the real culture of ARGs and CF, how different should it really be from a channel like #techguy?

It sounds to me as if the leaders of unFiction need to consider what they really think #unfiction ought to be, and decide to do something about that. Without some sense of leadership (even if it's an idea instead of a person or people) a group of people is merely a chaotic crowd. Those have a way of becoming mobs. Most of us know what that usually leads to.
_________________
Any sufficiently plausible fiction is indistinguishable from reality.
Any sufficiently twisted reality is indistinguishable from fiction.
Welcome to the new world of entertainment.
ŠEuchre 2007

PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:01 pm
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago

 		Cookies for everyone??
_________________
Alternate Currency
Stories and dreams, crossing my palm like silver.

xbl gamertag: krystyn

PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:04 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website
 Back to top 
Euchre
uF Game Warden


Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 3342
krystyn wrote:
Cookies for everyone??

Chocolate double chocolate chip please.
Very Happy
_________________
Any sufficiently plausible fiction is indistinguishable from reality.
Any sufficiently twisted reality is indistinguishable from fiction.
Welcome to the new world of entertainment.
ŠEuchre 2007

PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:19 am
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
Rekidk
Entrenched


Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 992
Location: Indiana, USA

 		/me bakes cookies with Krystyn. Smile
_________________
iTube - iTweet - iNetwork

PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:07 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website
 Back to top 
Display posts from previous:   Sort by:   
Page 2 of 7 [103 Posts]   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 Next
View previous topicView next topic
 Forum index » Administration » General
Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
You cannot post calendar events in this forum



Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group