unforum

[krystyn]

Wow, really? I have actually been trying to compose a post on this topic for days and days now. Gah.

You know what, Euchre? I apologize. Disrespect was about the furthest thing from my mind, and, truth be told, was a way for me to become more comfortable with the thread so that I could, in fact, post something substantive to it. I don't like being called rude and obnoxious, but I will be OK with that if I can also say that you calling me that says a lot about what you're willing to glean from the intention of my posts. And we could argue semantics all day, sure, but at the end of it, I like to show people that I like them. It's what I do.

Also, I was being somewhat literal with my metaphors (ha!): I was calling out your aphorisms of community death. It's like you were being all gothy and stuff to point out that perhaps my frivolity was not welcome in this Very Serious Thread.

So, OK.

Discussion about sexual issues in a free-form conduit like IRC is very fracking tricky, especially when there is an attached forum community of thousands and thousands of users who come from pretty much every conceivable internet-ready place on Earth to play *games*. There are *also* a *staggering* number of levels of anonymity about each person who contributes. It is often quite difficult to know exactly who you are talking to, at any given moment. This is not usually a cause for alarm or concern, but when it comes to personal things like sexual identity, the levels of anonymity become more important.

I have my own reasons for feeling uncomfortable with the conversations in #unfiction that have, as of late, veered towards the super-explicit. This does not make me a prude (srsly), and yet I am not particularly concerned about the children (except, you know, I do care, but it's not why I'm running for President), but! -- it was *also* hard to see the fall-out from steps the mods/ops took to address the concerns of the people who were feeling increasingly unwelcome in the channel.

It's not fun to be told that you were making someone else uncomfortable! It is not easy to find that tipping point where you feel you can engage in unfettered speech while others still feel welcome! There is no button anyone can push to make this happen, it's not a program anyone can write, and it's not something that the mods/ops can will into existence simply because they're the mods/ops. Being called on the carpet is, unfortunately, almost never a win-win situation. It's awkward and painful for pretty much everyone involved.

It takes work to go from there, and it can be done well as a community, rather than through a perceived/real power struggle.

For a lot of people, opting out of discussions about explicit topics is sub-optimal. It's not easy to post about it, because to defend oneself is to open oneself up to criticism about their very own personal issues, which feels twisty and hilariously inappropriate, right? In a way, it's asking someone who has a fear of heights to prove it by standing on their rooftop and saying, "I am very scared of falling right now!"

#unfiction is a leg of the giant Transformer robot that is this awesome and crazy and infuriating community. I love this place, and I respect and feel a sincere affection for a great many of the people who visit and contribute here.

But I also don't feel like this thread has reached a place where it's safe for people who have felt uncomfortable in IRC to talk about how to proceed from here. Or maybe I'm just speaking for me. It was the refutation of my cookie-ness that spurred me on, I guess.

Anyway. Explicit discussions are challenging for most online communities, and perhaps double so for communities that are ARG-focused. There are so many times I find myself bragging about the amazing sense of collective solving that goes on here, and one of the reasons it's so awesome is because the community eventually learns, as an entity, to welcome so many points of view and backgrounds that the lexicon of Things The Community Knows has astounding potential.

It feels weird that problem-solving is falling apart a little bit here, but the fact of the matter is, sex is often quite personal. The collective does not necessarily benefit from trying to extrapolate something that can be quite private, and translate that into a greater format, even if that format is a somewhat-busy IRC channel on some server somewhere.

I support people starting their own channels. It happens all the time, it is going on right now, and will continue to happen in the future.

I wish I had more solution to offer, but I just wanted to acknowledge that this is a tough topic, and some of the friction is a result of that. The mods/ops don't have all of the answers - they're just people, you know. Human. That's why this stuff gets brought to threads that are open for discussion.

I don't know. I've used too many words. I've deleted a half dozen posts already.

[Euchre]

[natas]

I like the "Your mama" jokes better. That's easier for me to understand that you guy's long posts.

[Gupfee]

Well K, you're a bigger woman than me because I am not going to apologize. What people are failing to realize here is that cookies are part of the forum culture, having been established as a (until now) non-threatening way to say, let's take a breather, we're all friends here. It's the online equivalent of the proverbial breaking of bread.

If that makes me a jerk, then so be it.

[jamesi]

Here's what I still don't get about the subject of specifics -- isn't it pretty much common sense that you don't say something in chat that you wouldn't say to a minor (or anyone, for that matter) in real life? How specific does one have to be to say, "You can't say ______ in here because it's considered highly inappropriate to say _______ in real life conversations?"

Once again, we dance in circles while avoiding the advice of people who have a vested interest in including everyone in our chat conversations. And don't start with the accusatory "But you're excluding me because you're not letting me say what I want to say!" because, quite honestly, those of you choosing to make that argument fail to realize (or, realize but choose to argue anyway) that there is a big difference between censorship and appropriate conversation. Sorry, but the needs of the community (a safe, non-threatening area for all to chat in) outweigh any individual's need for saying whatever the heck they want to.

In short (because I love to summarize my own thoughts OVER AND OVER AGAIN): Just because you think you can exist in #uf whilst saying anything and everything that pops into your head doesn't mean you should be typing out statements that are (a) explicitly sexual, (b) threatening, (c) disgusting, (d) vulgar, and/or (e) full of language that could offend. As always, your choices are based on your views, but for God's sake, think of others before yourselves.

[Vecheeso]

[natas]

TLDR

[thebruce]

Still not sure why people can't simply accept - happily and respectfully - the point that #unfiction, being a public location and an official spinoff of Unfiction, is a place for respectable chat and discussion (not a difficult concept, as explained previously, it's a concept generally employed in numerous other areas of a person's public life).
There's no need for people of either opinion to vilify the other side.

If someone isn't respectable, they can be informed and asked to tone it down (publically or privately) - if they aren't, further action can be taken; if they are, then great! If someone wants to be unrespectable, then as per any other environment that employs a common sense expectation of respectability, they can go elsewhere; there's no need to vilify that environment by 'sticking it to them' and announcing that they're abandoning there entirely just because of these 'rules'; the two can easily coexist. But if anyone wants to leave and never return, well then that's their choice ultimately anyway.

The reason it's still going is because in this accepting this resolution, some people are making out their choice to appear as if its the 'higher ground' here. There's no need for that.

Go where you're comfortable. That's really all there is to it.

#unfiction is a common area, where as jamesi said, is intended for a wide range of personalities and people - so think about the greater community before yourself, treat it as a location where general respectability is encouraged. There's no 'rules' in that if you swear for example, you will be kicked or banned. If you're unrespectable, someone will likely say something, but if you battle it out for your right to be like that, then sure, you may be kicked. But that's what happens with spammers and trolls too (only much quicker and harsher).

Discussion content is lax compared to spamming and trolling. Respectability is encouraged, and if excessive dispute (on any topic or reason, really) is engaged, then yeah the ops have a right to decide for themselves what to do in any given case.

As for the relative opinion of various ops - it's just like in these forums. Ops will back each other, and if there's an issue on a meta level that needs to be resolved, take it up amongst themselves. If there's a general consensus, the ops will work together to support that consensus. I highly doubt there will be an op who says "ok when no other op is here but me, go nuts!". Ultimately that pits op against op, it can also promote favouritism, and form schisms. The ops, ultimately, are a team and will (or should) encourage the same environment no matter who's currently 'in charge', based on what's considered by the general community (ops and/or participants as a whole).

Anyway, now I've rambled too... really, it's simple. #unfiction is a public, common place for general common see respectability, like one would employ at work, with family, at a restaurant, on the radio, on the news, whatever... and if that's still a foreign concept, then yeah it may seem like rules bearing down on you. Well, not much can be done about it in that case. Just do your best to follow others' examples who do understand that level of respectability.

Ok, done now...

[Euchre]

[natas]

[Euchre]

[addlepated]

[jamesi]

Fine, let's do it your way...

[jamesi]

[redct]