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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: General » Old News & Rumors
[Personal Effects] Dark Art
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Deanodon
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Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 130
Location: Near Boston, MA
Meta discussion
I've gone through two of Cathy's books, and one of the things they do is hint at things in the expanded content that then becomes more central in the subsequent book. So it's possible that the dead ends we're finding (good catch on Alexandrov's bank account, Laguz) are loose ends that will be picked up in subsequent books.

But I've got to say that would suck.

One of the reasons Cathy's Book(s) get a pass on simple puzzles is that they're YA novels. I figured they would go deeper for adults in PE:DA, but if that's not the case, I will be mightily upset.

Maybe Jordan Weissman will explain in his keynote at ARG FestoCon (or maybe he'll kick things off there).

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:27 pm
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Talldog
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Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 58
Meta discussion
Deanodon wrote:
I've gone through two of Cathy's books, and one of the things they do is hint at things in the expanded content that then becomes more central in the subsequent book. So it's possible that the dead ends we're finding (good catch on Alexandrov's bank account, Laguz) are loose ends that will be picked up in subsequent books.

But I've got to say that would suck.

One of the reasons Cathy's Book(s) get a pass on simple puzzles is that they're YA novels. I figured they would go deeper for adults in PE:DA, but if that's not the case, I will be mightily upset.

Maybe Jordan Weissman will explain in his keynote at ARG FestoCon (or maybe he'll kick things off there).


From some rumors I've been hearing around the old netiverse I've been running under the assumption that if anything does kick off it would be at ARGcon/fest.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:36 pm
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Talldog
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Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 58

 		Question
For those that have finished the book and listened to Alexandrov's voicemail:

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
So from the VM it sounds like it was either Alexandrov or an associate of his that killed Poole, right?


PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:37 pm
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Psysop
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Joined: 26 Sep 2008
Posts: 270
Location: San Diego, California

 		Re: Question
Talldog wrote:
For those that have finished the book and listened to Alexandrov's voicemail:

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
So from the VM it sounds like it was either Alexandrov or an associate of his that killed Poole, right?

Hi Talldog, yeah it seems that way, and that is confusing to me, hmm. Primarily because the dude in the vm says (my bold):
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
this is Maxim Gasputin(?), this Saphronia Poole, -it is done in the way you requested. You break his heart by taking hers, da? should she be the last, or are there more? Do tell, dosvidanya

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:34 pm
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emato
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Joined: 06 Aug 2007
Posts: 333
Location: Florida
Meta discussion
Talldog wrote:

Maybe Jordan Weissman will explain in his keynote at ARG FestoCon (or maybe he'll kick things off there).

[...]

From some rumors I've been hearing around the old netiverse I've been running under the assumption that if anything does kick off it would be at ARGcon/fest.


I hope that is the case. There is so much potential there ... lots of unanswered questions - or - what ifs ....

Hope you are correct. I won't be there so I hope we will be informed soon.

Also, today I spent the afternoon at B&N and looked at the Cathy books .... to me the PE:DA book was very similar - just upped the age a bit.

ETA:
Was wondering if anyone has signed up for the signing up of participation to "Participate in Brinkvale clinical studies" and if there is further info from that. I am an artist and was thinking about submitting some stuff and playing it up but.... it is seeming to not be that .. ah .. interactive.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:11 pm
Last edited by emato on Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Talldog
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Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 58

 		Re: Question
Psysop wrote:
Talldog wrote:
For those that have finished the book and listened to Alexandrov's voicemail:

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
So from the VM it sounds like it was either Alexandrov or an associate of his that killed Poole, right?

Hi Talldog, yeah it seems that way, and that is confusing to me, hmm. Primarily because the dude in the vm says (my bold):
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
this is Maxim Gasputin(?), this Saphronia Poole, -it is done in the way you requested. You break his heart by taking hers, da? should she be the last, or are there more? Do tell, dosvidanya


Spoiler (Rollover to View):
I think it's confirmation of the idea that there was NO Dark Man, it was just a bunch of Russian thugs. I think they were calling Alexandrov to see if he wanted anyone killed to even the score.

As Far as the Taylor Family, for some reason I get the idea that Will killed his wife and Henry too the fall for him to save Will's career. I'm waiting on the edge of my seat to find out why the Dark Man was involved in the Taylor Family and I'm just brimming with theories.

I love Sci-Fi so if it was all in their heads and there really is no Dark Man like my earlier theory, well,, I will be let down. I want a Sci-Fi mystery suspense thriller!


PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:12 pm
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Deanodon
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Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 130
Location: Near Boston, MA

 		Odds and ends
So I'm looking through the stuff again.

Did anyone else notice that Jane Grace's death certificate is unsigned? The certifier is Kerilyn Olivetti, and she signed Veronica Grace's death certificate, but not Jane's. Could Drake's daughter still be alive?

Also notice that "automobile accident" is crossed out and "massive trauma" is written in. Wonder why?

Also, I've got Alexandrov's phone number but not his PIN.

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
It should be "the first time he died" which, if it's when Drake killed him should be 10/97, but it doesn't work. Could someone point me in the right direction?


Oh, and I'll be at ARG FestoCon, so I'll report back with anything that happens.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:44 pm
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danteIL
Unfictologist


Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1990

 		Re: Odds and ends
Deanodon wrote:

Also, I've got Alexandrov's phone number but not his PIN.

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
It should be "the first time he died" which, if it's when Drake killed him should be 10/97, but it doesn't work. Could someone point me in the right direction?


The answer is here: http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=620886#620886

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:02 pm
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Jung
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Joined: 24 May 2009
Posts: 96
Location: Barcelona

 		Brinkvale Gallery
Reading all the info posted here i think it could be interesting to take a look to a site not mentioned yet (i think)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/35830517@N08/

The Brinkvale Gallery on flickr has lot of stuff and i think it could be a place to find some hidden message. I had the idea to comment on a work signed by "Anthony Palms" trying to get some answer from the Brinkvale Psychiatric but i've not been lucky yet.

Anyway, someone with art skills could help us all.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:29 pm
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H(e)x
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Joined: 21 May 2009
Posts: 84

 		On the subject of how deep the ARG elements of the novel, and whether there's anything new in it -- I think the handling of the Alexandrov material is the most fascinating. The rest of the extra material is just clever multimedia padding, but the Alexandrov stuff suggests an entirely different interpretation of events to that explicitly given in the novel. It makes it clear that ZT is a subjective narrator, and also that he may have incorrectly interpreted the information he found. I want to try and think through all this, and how we should understand the novel/ARG as a result:

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
The map that Grace paints on his room walls leads from his son's house to Sophronia Poole's. Why? What's the connection between these two locations? At his son's house the papers from the CIA should be hidden -- of which the only remaining ones, because his son has burned the others, are pieces of evidence suggesting that Grace (then Drake) *did* kill Alexandrov. Could the other papers be what we find at the Lifeplan site? Which would mean that the son burned the things suggesting Alexandrov was alive . . . but why would he do that? It's all terribly confusing!

There are two main interpretations of events: the supernatural, in which Alexandrov summons Czernobog who wreaks vengeance on Grace/Drake, and the sceptical, in which the Dark Man is a creature of Grace/Drake's unconscious and Alexandrov is responsible for the murders. The problem with the former is that Alexandrov survived the Volga, according to the extra-book evidence, and the problem with the latter is that, supernaturaly, Grace still did forsee all the brutal kilings.

So I'm currently tending towards an interesting mid-point reading of the material, in which the supernatural elements are mainly projections of the subconscious, but in which the subconscious is somewhat more powerful than we usually take it to be. So Alexandrov is torturing Grace by killing those close to him, but Grace's subconscious, guilt-stricken over the Red Show debacle, is complicit in that torture and subjects him to the visions and belief in the Dark Man. (Remember that Drake/Grace took part in a precog programme with the CIA)

Which brings us to the map. That seems to be a message Grace's subconscious has left for ZT: it links Poole's house to Grace/Drake's son's house, the message being that ZT will find clues about Poole's killing there. Now, if the full CIA papers were there, ZT would conclude that Alexandrov was responsbible, and Grace would be exhonerated. But the key point of the novel's conclusion is that Grace wants to be punished. So Grace('s subconscious) deliberately points ZT to misleading evidence that leads ZT to definitely believe in the Dark Man, and to the novel's conclusion.

I feel that this kind of interpretation, complicated as it is, is consistent with the novel's themes -- of psychological salvation through the artistic expression of the subconscious. Also, going for a half sceptical hald supernatural understanding allows Weisman and Hutchins to continue fruitfully exploring the horror/thriller borderlands -- if the plot were to fully resolve itself into either, something would be lost, so keeping it ambiguously in between is essential.


For anyone who's made it through all that -- what do y'all think? I think these ideas need work, but I also wonder if we're not missing some information. I, like others, am wondering about the bank and health insurance cards -- are they just bumf from Grace's pesonal effects, or could they lead somewhere?

I'm also confused about where the Lifeplan card comes from. Whose is it? When is it mentioned in the book? How did you figure out the PIN? WHy does the PIN give access to a bunch of CIA files? Maybe knowing more couple lead us somewhere.

Whew . . . OK, finally:

Thoughts on the depth of interactivity. The first is the interesting point that the slightly geeky, rational-side exploration of websites and puzzles leads us to a more sceptical conclusion, while the more artistic, emotional-side exploration of the book leads us to a more supernatural conclusion. This too is in keeping with the book's themes! -- and I think that's a clever way of using the multimedia elements.

The second is the unfortunate fact that it's difficult to marry a linear book-form narrative to a non-linear chaotic fiction based around it without one severely disrupting the other. The two interpretations and their possible resolution helps that conflict -- but I, like others, feel that that hasn't really gone deep enough yet. It'd like the ARG elements to take us much deeper yet. I hope they do.

And on that note. The third and final final thing is that, before getting annoyed about a lack of connected ARG, maybe we should try and interact with what's there more. So in that spirit, I've been e-mailing addresses, have joined THink the Brink and sent a PM or two, and wil be e-mailing RSmith at LIfeplan once I understand where that card came from better. Let's see how we can advance the narrative!

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:07 pm
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danteIL
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Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1990
H(e)x wrote:

I'm also confused about where the Lifeplan card comes from. Whose is it? When is it mentioned in the book? How did you figure out the PIN? WHy does the PIN give access to a bunch of CIA files? Maybe knowing more couple lead us somewhere.


I'll have to think about the other stuff you wrote, but this I can answer:
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
Yes, it is mentioned in the book. Zach is visited at the Brink by Grace's insurance agent, and Zach gets annoyed and kicks him out. Somewhere in the conversation, the agent mentions that his son's birthday is on leap day: February 29th. It's a small leap [ha!] to assume (since it is one of those details that are noticeable when you read the book) that the agent used his son's birthday as his PIN.

As far as the CIA files go, I think the explanation is that, since Grace was actually the identity given to Drake as part of CIA witness protection/relocation, that the insurance agency is just a front for the CIA, who was coming in to check on Grace (since it might be their fault that he went crazy, after all. Plus, he knows things).


PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:38 pm
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H(e)x
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Joined: 21 May 2009
Posts: 84

 		Thanks for that, Dante. Your theory about Lifeplan being a CIA front is corroborated by two quite funny things: the Lifeplan logo, which is pretty damn similar to the CIA logo, and its foundation date being 1947 -- the same as the CIA's.

Just to report back on my e-mailing -- Roland Smith's address doesn't work, and both Brinkvale's and the conspiracy site's have given me auto-replies so far. Now that would be disappointing.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:25 am
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DeleriumTremens
Greenhorn

Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 4
H(e)x wrote:
For anyone who's made it through all that -- what do y'all think?


I agree with your interpretation.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:58 am
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OpheliasClone
Greenhorn

Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Posts: 9

 		So I'm finding it difficult to parse what was intentional versus what was not intentional. For instance, a spellchecker would catch some of the typos in the book but not others. Are the ones the spellchecker would catch intentional? And if so, why isn't there one more? Laughing

So I created a makeshift timeline of events and found three glaring issues. I'm pretty sure one is unintentional, but two maybe are not. There's also at least one visual clue that must be intentional.

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
Some of the "personal effects" documents list the events of the novel as taking place in September 2008. But other references and Hutchins himself refers to them as occurring in November 2008. The date may have been pushed back due to a publication delay or some such. Maybe by then it was too late to change any preprinted inserts. I'm guessing.

However, that doesn't explain two other timeline inconsistencies. The CIA info hiding behind the Lifeplan Medical Alliance site is pretty convincing about Alexandrov (alias Ivan Deminov) dying to a gunshot in December 2005. But Sophronia Poole was killed in August 2006. And Alexandrov's voice mail indicates he called in the hit. Did Alexandrov fake his death? If so, Taylor and his tribe are still in danger. And the CIA may not know.

Also, there's something weird going on with Drake's kids. Daniel is born in 1980 and Jennifer in 1986 according to their birth documents. That's six years apart. Jennifer aka Jane Lynn Grace dies in 1998 at age 12. So far so good. But how come that photo at the tot lot from 1982 lists Danny as 7 and Jenny as 5? That's only two years apart, and Jenny isn't supposed to be alive for another four years. What's going on there?

Finally, the same charcoal drawing is used for chapters 1 and 29. They're not identical, though. Peterson is wearing cufflinks in chapter 29. The second looks like the letter A. The first... eh, I dunno. Maybe that's supposed to be the armored madonna from Chapter 8? I can't tell. The cufflinks are mentioned on page 305, so I feel this one's intentional.

You guys noticed the Moon Rocks story on the conspiracy site, yes? Very Happy The armored madonna isn't just Henry and the Invisible Man. There seem to be a lot of people over many years potentially involved.

I suspect there's other stuff with the pictures too. Many of the drawings at the start of chapters have paired matches of something similar - 2 and 28, 5 and 25, 7 and 23, 9 and 21, 11 and 19, 14 and 16. Chapter 18's drawing lists a date - November 18, 1998 - that matches nothing on my timeline so far. I'm also interested in Zach's picture of Chernobog on page 215. Do the symbols / letters on those dog tags mean anything? Beats me!


Anyway, I'm enjoying it so far. The online stuff is cool, though I can't friend Zachary Taylor on Myspace or email Roland Smith from Lifeplan Medical Alliance. I'm hoping those are unintentional and temporary. Smile

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:41 pm
Last edited by OpheliasClone on Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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Laguz
Boot

Joined: 21 Jun 2009
Posts: 27

 		dates
OpheliasClone wrote:

Spoiler (Rollover to View):


I suspect there's other stuff with the pictures too. Many of the drawings at the start of chapters have paired matches of something similar - 2 and 28, 5 and 25, 7 and 23, 9 and 21, 11 and 19, 14 and 16. Chapter 18's drawing lists a date - November 18, 1998 - that matches nothing on my timeline so far. I'm also interested in Zach's picture of Chernobog on page 215. Do the symbols / letters on those dog tags mean anything? Beats me!


Anyway, I'm enjoying it so far. The online stuff is cool, though I can't friend Zachary Taylor on Myspace or email Roland Smith from Lifeplan Medical Alliance. I'm hoping those are unintentional and temporary. Smile


I have one answer for you about the drawings:

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
Someone ealrier in the thread found the date of Androv's first death. He uses it as code for his voicemail and the bank account I haven't found yet. 1118 (November 18 )


PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:22 pm
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