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Everything you know about ARGs is WRONG
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danhon
Boot

Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 19

Re: Everything you know about ARGs is WRONG
by Dan Hon

Hi everyone - thanks for the replies and the energetic discussion. I was going to try and collate all my replies in one post, but I think it's slightly easier if I do them one by one.

redct wrote:

Dan posted up a version of his slideshow on the six to start website.

I'd tend to agree with him on most of his points, but one stuck out to me as a former PM: puzzle design. I know, you're not supposed to get into the unholy rut of "rot-13 everything", but puzzle design is a hard thing to do. When new, aspiring PMs try and be creative (sadly) more often than not they just sort of fall back on the rot-13s and source code stuff.

Ideas? Discuss.

Yes, unfortunately puzzle design is hard - so is making anything good, though. A lot of the attitude I see is that a lot of people I talk to want "puzzles or codes" and are completely happy with ROT-13 when you and I know we can do a lot better than that. And yes, the puzzles always have to work and make sense in the context of the game and the story.

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:08 pm

danhon
Boot

Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 19

Silent|away wrote:

1) Always call your ARG an MMORPG. It is massive, it is mulitplayer, the ARG is played online, and you are roleplaying a character (yourself). Hence, an MMORPG. This will lessen the stigma of ARGs, since few people may know what an ARG is, but most people will understand what online games are. And people love online games.

2) If you like interaction in an ARG story, then just have no puzzles whatsoever. Talking with the characters can be a 'puzzle' in and of itself, and it would be very similar to playing a "game". Then again though, I wrote before in this forum that without any "puzzles", including ROT-12s, the game would become very boring indeed.

You might argue that what he's really ranting about is the need for creative puzzles. I am trying out VERY CREATIVE PUZZLES in an ARG I am doing right now, and it turns out it's become a complete and utter failure. However, I'm willing to blame myself for the failure of this ARG and not the very creative puzzles.

3) Video games have cliches, such as evil conspiracies. Cliches are sometimes good, sometimes bad. The most important thing to realize that cliches are overused because they are effective. There needs to be a a reason to play the game.

If we cannot save the kidnap victim from Evil Corporation #596...then what do we have to do? Interfere inside office politics to ensure the UltraMan project gets the necessary funding? How about "No way". We prefer to save the world, thank you very much.

4) The stories in ARGs are actually pretty okay. They may be mediocre, true, and just tired repetition of cliches, but everything is merely a repeat of certain motifs, there are nothing "original" anymore. As long as you combine certain story elements together into a good story, that's fine by me.

OK, so a few points here.

1. I disagree on the whole calling an ARG an MMORPG thing, but I don't really want to get caught up in semantics. I think (I suspect) that most people in this thread would agree that ARGs are a different thing, and when I've been talking about them, I see their defining characteristics as including their media and platform agnosticism. Also: ARGs are a new thing: they're not MMORPGs. They may have MMORPG-like characteristics, but not all of them are massive, not all of them are multiplayer (or, even hardly any of them are explicitly multiplayer, I'd argue). I'd also say that the roleplaying aspect is debatable, whether you're playing yourself or someone else. And, however much you'd like it, in some circles - and note, only in *some* circles, calling an ARG and MMORPG isn't exactly a tremendous uplift in stigma and may even be a backward step.

2. Puzzles aren't the only kind of game design, ARGs don't specify or require that puzzles be part of the game design. You can do anything you want! Why this preoccupation with puzzles!

3. I hate the use of cliches as a crutch for terrible writing.

4. I hate mediocrity and tired repetition of cliche. We can and should do better than that. And if nothing can be "original" any more, then we might as well give up.

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:14 pm

danhon
Boot

Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 19

Euchre wrote:

Puzzles are to ARGs what dice and roll charts were to D&D - pure death.

What happened to D&D? (Dungeons and Dragons for those thankfully unfamiliar.) A very narrow group of people play it, and very seriously most I've seen in the last 10 years are the type that live with their parents and don't know personal hygiene too well. It was neat when it started, but the world moved on and the game design did not. All official attempts to translate D&D to modern media failed because they were stuck on the 'dice' mentality.

Oh, there is a success story in the world of D&D. It's called World of Warcraft. The whole statistical obsession was pushed down in favor of some real excitement in a newer medium (two really) that allowed it. That's getting bogged down too though, which is beautifully illustrated in the "Leroy Jenkins" video I'm sure most of you have seen at least once. (Some people think it's making fun of this 'Leroy' person, but in truth it's showing what real idiots most of the players involved are.)

And now, for something completely different...
(Oh crap, I included way too much esoteric knowledge in this post. I've gotta stop that!)

I like this. In my talk, I was pissed off at cookie-cutter ARG design, and the belief - by some people - that an ARG is/must be certain things. I can't believe the genre's only, say, seven years old, and a whole bunch of people feel so straitjacketed. And they're lying if they say they haven't felt that way.

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:16 pm

danhon
Boot

Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 19

imbri wrote:

A story game?

Is that like World of Warcraft? Katamari Damaci? Monopoly? Blackjack? The stock market? War? Life?

All of those are games. All of them are stories. And, all of them have stories within the game and stories written outside of it.

How are ~~Alternate Reality Games~~ Story Games different? What distinguishes them from the hundreds of thousands of other story games out there?

While I agree that Alternate Reality Gaming is a bit of clumsy phrasing, it's the accepted term and is, increasingly, understood (if misunderstood) by a more mainstream portion of society. Sure, I still have to define it for most people, but I also have to define MMO or RPG or FPS or any number of other terms for genres of gaming.

And, while I appreciate a good rant as much as anyone, I can't be the only one that finds the rant against the moniker a bit tired. I mean, it's been going on for over five years now.

"Story Game"? I've gotta hope that came out better during the presentation than it did online.

Hah. I wasn't for a moment suggesting that anyone go around describing ARGs as "Story Game". More pointing out: this is what we mean when we talk about alternate reality games. And if you're dealing with a bunch of people who have a serious problem with just the name "ARG", then that's a hell of a win.

What I didn't really cover in my talk - and that's due to time, if anything - was the big thing that *does* make ARGs different from WoW and Katamari and everything else you mentioned. And there's a gazillion points there - the freedom from prescribed media, the potential for collaboration and genuinely more effective storytelling. But we know all of that.

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:18 pm

danhon
Boot

Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 19

Euchre wrote:

Methinks the point of the 'rant' is that the fabulously dynamic (which is supposed to be THE heart of the genre) is becoming hideously static.

Maybe I should just ROT13 all my posts in this thread from now on, might get the point across better. Nah, only the busload of people that actually would be interested in a meta-discussion of ARGs would actually bother to decode it.
Twisted Evil

Yes, that's one of the points. We can do so much - so why are we seeing so little? And it's not so much a rant at designers as one also at the people with the cash.

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:20 pm

danhon
Boot

Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 19

rose wrote:

Quote:

We've got an idea - well, lots of ideas, really - about how to move forward, what I'm really trying to get at in this post is to encourage the whole "traditional" ARG audience to move away from what's comfortable for them.

Dan posted this comment about what he meant. He is trying to move the players...I guess. Why he is worrying us to move forward, I'm not sure.

I love the way he "jokingly" puts us down. One example: the claim is that we don't have money. Yet we bought a hell of a lot of those cards he was selling, which I note he didn't point out. We created free resources for cataloging and trading those cards. We had a resource to make the map on the back of the cards. We set up free resources for hints for the cards and solves to be posted. We spent hours moderating chat, these forums and organizing irc chats to talk about finding the Cube. Don't see anything about that in your talk, Dan. Wasn't that an important point to include?

Putting down and inaccurately portraying people who aren't even present to represent themselves is, I think, just mean. And by presenting it this way, he gets to be mean, claiming it is an homage to another mean person, so he doesn't have to take responsibility for it.

Yes, I know, he can claim he was just listing the stereotypes about ARG players. But, I say, see above what we did as a community to support his little card game. Maybe we just were able to do that because we're "weird" and "live in the basement."(hehe, not true I know.) Really, we were able to provide extensive resources supporting his game because as a community we are creative, skilled, talented, collaborative and generous. Tell you what, there isn't a smart marketer in the world who wouldn't want to channel that passion, initiative, patience and enthusiasm to their product.

Oh I know its Christmas..so sorry for the rant here. I'm waiting for my son to get ready for church and the longer I waited the more I wrote. I just wanted to object to Dan's portrayal of us, which was untrue, rude and glaringly omitted everything we did to support PerplexCity.

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!!!

Merry Christmas Rose Smile

I do admit that it's a glaring omission to not talk about Perplex City, and I apologise for jokingly putting down the community and I agree with absolutely everything you say in your post, apart from this bit:

"Really, we were able to provide extensive resources supporting his game because as a community we are creative, skilled, talented, collaborative and generous. Tell you what, there isn't a smart marketer in the world who wouldn't want to channel that passion, initiative, patience and enthusiasm to their product. "

My point is that there are smart marketers who don't want to use this community *because* they think we don't have any money and live in the basement. They love all the creativity, skill, talent, collaboration, etc. They're in awe of it, and I se that every single time we get invited to present to agencies. But they're also incredibly conscious about image - and their image of the ARG audience is one that they're not particularly happy with. (For the most part. Every so often, there's someone who Gets It. But at the moment, they're few and far between).

We tell them about all the amazing things the ARG community has done - and I use examples from PXC, like the Thirteenth Labour and Find Satoshi and the puzzles created by members of all of the forums - and they say "yes, but can we make it a bit more mainstream?"

Part of the problem is that games are still - even post the Wii and the DS - are being seen as geeky when we know they're not. Marketers are the non-mainstream bunch Smile

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:28 pm

danhon
Boot

Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 19

notgordian wrote:

rose wrote:

One example: the claim is that we don't have money. Yet we bought a hell of a lot of those cards he was selling, which I note he didn't point out. We created free resources for cataloging and trading those cards. We had a resource to make the map on the back of the cards. We set up free resources for hints for the cards and solves to be posted. We spent hours moderating chat, these forums and organizing irc chats to talk about finding the Cube.

I find this point interesting. In trying to think of ARGs that have directly (or indirectly) led to purchases, a few products come to mind off the top of my head.

-Quite a few former Beekeepers have XBox Live accounts, and are very enthusiastic about it.
-Cathy's Book was a New York Times Bestseller
-Perplex City turned out a whole bunch of cards (think about how much you'd need to buy/spend to get some of those leitmarks floating around)
-People here have been posting about their GPS devices way before it became common to have them: a lot of this has transfered to chatter over fancy phones like the iPhone with useful tools and gadgets
-Reports of multiple viewings of movies such as AI, Cloverfield, and The Dark Knight and people shifting their views to the all-important first night to help the box office buzz

Not enough ROI, I'm afraid.

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:29 pm

danhon
Boot

Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 19

Silent|away wrote:

If there is a demographic, there is a chance to make money off the whole deal. However, as long as there are many grassroots ARGs out there, the market is saturated. Why pay real money to play an ARG, when you can pay $0 for an ARG?

Is Dan Hon the guy behind Perplex City? If so, I can understand why he would complain, since the ARG did 'fall apart' and not enough profit is made. And it is still important to generate revenue. But it is far better to insult the people running the business for not understanding the customer than blaming the customer for not paying.

I think that, in the end, the Ransom Model is the best way to commericalize ARGs, going foward. However, the Ransom Model would likely only work with PMs who have a good reputation.
***
Imbri: I worship player interaction and control over the direction of a story, even though I admit that, in reality, the Puppet Masters manlipuate the players. Therefore, I think a "Story Game" is a game where the players decide the direction of the story. WoW and Katamari Damaci both have a lineral story, you have to go and follow the path, but in a Story Game, you can actually decide what to say to the NPCs, decide how best to insult the NPCs, tell the NPC that you don't care about saving the Princess and that you're going to fishing, actually go out and fish, finally get tired of fishing, return back to the NPC, promise to help the NPC find the princess, find the evil lair of the Bad Guy, talk with the Princess to find out her side of the story, and then preside over a marriage the Bad Guy and the Princess.

You can't do that in a regular game.

I'm afraid I disagree about the market being saturated. The market's saturated if the demographic you're talking about is, say, the Unforums. If you believe it's bigger than that, then not necessarily - and people still pay money to see movies, buy DVDs and buy books when they can read for free online. Some people might say it's less than before, but it's still some people. Just because there's grassroots versions of anything doesn't detract from commercial versions. (This is rather like publishers and agents telling their authors not to give their work away online because it'll destroy their physical product sales).

There's a lot that I still can't say about Perplex City, but I think Catherwood below nails the point of the talk. *I* think there's money out there, but it's certain marketers and advertisers whose attitudes need adjusting.

In a true sandbox game - like the earlier GTAs, and not GTA IV, I hear - you can do what you want and still accomplish the mission goal. So yes, there's a difference between open-ended and linear narrative games. They're both still games though.

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:34 pm

danhon
Boot

Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 19

krystyn wrote:

Quote:

Putting down and inaccurately portraying people who aren't even present to represent themselves is, I think, just mean. And by presenting it this way, he gets to be mean, claiming it is an homage to another mean person, so he doesn't have to take responsibility for it.

Thanks for saying that, rose.

Meh, I had a bunch of stuff typed out, but essentially: I am tired of "hurr hurr ARGs suck" stuff floating around on the web. I've been making these games for a long time, now, and I'm just sort of "eh," here.

Maybe we've reached that point in the genre where primary observers can be all semi-ironic and disdainful, in order to claim 'forward movement' on a genre that is, by definition, difficult (if not impossible) to contain.

The only thing that I will in any way agree with from that talk is that ARGs need to be fun. That's pretty much my only dev rule, when making a game. Is this fun? It's what my colleagues are concerned with, first and foremost, and it's definitely a good rule of thumb to have when developing one of these suckers.

Hi Krysten - this talk was not for you; you know everything in it already since you've been making these games for a long time now.

The people with the cash who say "hey, do me an ARG!" and then say "oooh, but make it mainstream" and "something a bit like lonelygirl15" - they're the ones whose attitude needs adjusting. And yes: the main point is to make sure the damn thing is fun.

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:36 pm

danhon
Boot

Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 19

catherwood wrote:

I am a bit puzzled by some of the reactions to Dan's slide presentation. He was not personally insulting to me. Some of what he did have to say perhaps was insulting to grassroots ARG designers, but his talk wasn't aimed at them. And the things that were insulting to the designers of large for-profit ARGs comes more from the prospective clients than from him personally. Let's see if I'm reading this wrong...

The talk is meant to highlight the obstacles he has faced in using ARGs in a business model. Business, profit, marketing, etc., not the genre. He admits that he is not being objective here, and has not researched beyond his own experience.

His prospective clients tell him that they don't want what they think of as ARG because of preconceptions and erroneous expectations. He then parrots some of what he hears from them.

The message he gets from the business world is that his games (whether or not they are labeled as ARG):
- don't pull in a mass market of average buyers (gamers being neither average nor marketable in the eyes of the client), and thus are not appropriate for mainstream advertising purposes;
- and as a niche market it has little measureable return-on-investment, or a too large cost-to-benefit ratio to be profitable for its own sake.
- These are business decisions that need to be responded to with numbers and statistics; this talk does not do that. It is also not the purpose of his talk to denounce the world's misconception of the gamer population; he and we already know it isn't true.

Those are the reasons he has come up against "no matter whether they're actually true or not." He's reporting from the field, so to speak, with attitudes and not with numbers. Dan himself doesn't say ARGs don't get enough players, but that it is "frequently something that's brought up by broadcasters or advertisers." [italics are his words, bolding is mine]

Dan doesn't say ARGs should be inexpensive, he says that he has been rebuffed by clients who laugh at his "minimum six figure budget" because they think ARGs are "just a bunch of websites". Dan's link to cloudmakers is his sarcastic dig demonstrating how shallow their thinking is.

Dan's rant about fiction begins around the point of his talk where he confronts the TINAG misunderstanding. I think his point is being made to the audience of commercial ARG developers: Just sell your services as fiction writers and game constructors, avoid the ARG label, and business will be ready to put aside their objections.

As for the final third of the talk, where the rant devolves into listing (on multiple slides) a lot of the hallmarks of a lame ARG, it really boils down to things we've said ourselves: have puzzles that make sense in the context of your world, and have an in-story reason for the players to be jumping thru your hoops.

And he concludes by returning to the issue of business clients, and whether or not they even want an ARG, whatever that may be a label for, as opposed to a story-game or puzzle-contest or multimedia experience. The single ARG label makes it difficult to design a marketing campaign when the client really needs to choose a focus.

That's how I read the talk. Obviously people's mileage has varied.

Exactly. I KISS YOU.

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:37 pm

Silent|away
Guest

Quote:

I am a skeptic, so don't take this personally. I don't believe it is bigger than 'unforums'. CFs are a different matter entirely (because CFs are basically ARGs without puzzles), but CF also have market satuaration due to the roleplaying forums all over the internet.

There may be a possiblity that there are those out there who want to pay for 'quality', whatever it is, but that demographic comes straight from the unforum crowd. They're the "hardcore" ARGers, most people (including me) would be content with the grassroots 'trash'. Of course, money can be made even from a small niche, but is it worth the trouble? Is it worth the time?

ARGs are just a genre, similar to an RTS or a RPG, or even Choose Your Own Adventures. It isn't meant to be the greatest thing ever, and it will soon reach its niches and demographics and its allure will soon fade away.

Quote:

There's a lot that I still can't say about Perplex City, but I think Catherwood below nails the point of the talk. *I* think there's money out there, but it's certain marketers and advertisers whose attitudes need adjusting.

Alright, so you try, try again. Just hope that the people get it 'right' the next time.

Quote:

In a true sandbox game - like the earlier GTAs, and not GTA IV, I hear - you can do what you want and still accomplish the mission goal. So yes, there's a difference between open-ended and linear narrative games. They're both still games though.

In 'Sandbox games', there are still limits to your behavior. You are limited solely by what the designers have coded for. You cannot fish in the earlier GTAs for instance, nor could you even speak to the NPCs who are giving out missions (or if you do speak, your words are already predetermined).

There is no such coding in ARGs and CFs. That's due to the medium, it's relatively easy to set up a ARG compared to an real singleplayer game, where you have to code for graphics, AI movement, and other stuff. Therefore, there is more freedom of movement within an ARG and CF than there is in a Sandbox Game.

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:34 pm

Silent|away
Guest

Quote:

1. I disagree on the whole calling an ARG an MMORPG thing, but I don't really want to get caught up in semantics.

I understand. Most people here disagree with me calling it an MMORPG. I prefer call it it that though, for my own reasons, I guess.

Quote:

2. Puzzles aren't the only kind of game design, ARGs don't specify or require that puzzles be part of the game design. You can do anything you want! Why this preoccupation with puzzles!

Because when you got this freedom of movement within a game, you still need some sort of opposition or obsctale, or even "gates" to ensure that players don't procede too far into the story. Puzzles serve that role. Take out the puzzles, and it's no longer an ARG. It's just a CF. Or a marketing campagin.

Quote:

3. I hate the use of cliches as a crutch for terrible writing.

Maybe, but I don't believe that there are such thing as original thoughts today. Everything you write comes from ideas you seen or heard or dealt with in the past, just mashed together into a new creation for others to enjoy. If you said something, chances are, somebody else said it before you.

Quote:

4. I hate mediocrity and tired repetition of cliche. We can and should do better than that. And if nothing can be "original" any more, then we might as well give up.

We do stuff because we want to, not because we have to go out and be 'original'. If somebody like painting trees, I won't deride that person for being unoriginal. I'd just look at the painting and judge it by its quality.

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:43 pm

rose
...and then Magic happens

Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

Quote:

My point is that there are smart marketers who don't want to use this community *because* they think we don't have any money and live in the basement. They love all the creativity, skill, talent, collaboration, etc. They're in awe of it, and I se that every single time we get invited to present to agencies. But they're also incredibly conscious about image - and their image of the ARG audience is one that they're not particularly happy with. (For the most part. Every so often, there's someone who Gets It. But at the moment, they're few and far between).

Well, my point is that if they don't grasp the concept of ARGs and how to use it for their brand or product, then they aren't very smart. I share your frustration with that - even Paramount couldn't grasp the goldmine they had in the Cloverfield players, beyond getting bodies in the seats for that one film. It made me crazy.

And, if we aren't good enough for them, that is their loss. I'm not interested in trying to convince snobbish marketers that we deserve their time and attention. They can stick with their current customers and keep desperately doing things the same old ways and die off like the makers of the buggy whip. I know, maybe they can do a Superbowl ad!

Dan, seriously, I think you are banging you head against the wall. Trying to convince people of something they don't get is a waste of your time and energy. I know you are trying to make a living making ARGs, and I support that, but come on. I would rather work hard to find the people that somewhat understand what I am doing than try to convince people who think "people on the internet are weird," to do ARGs.

I saw a talk by Clive Thompson of the New York Times a few years ago at a Games for Change conference here in the city. He said that he was frustrated with having to explain everything in every article on gaming...when he wrote about machinama, he had to explain the Xbox, Halo, gamers and gaming culture before he could even start to get to his subject. His solution was that he was just going to wait a few years until the people who don't understand the internet, gaming, and the digital world we live in, are all out of power. It is only a matter of time. In part because of the successful internet campaign by our President-elect Obama (and the news that Amazon had their biggest year yet when all stores other than Walmart are down), I'm more hopeful than ever that day is coming soon.

And, thanks for the apology. Still, I don't think you help the incorrect reputation of gamers and ARGers by repeating all the bad things that have been said about us. If you feel have to do that,and I don't agree you do, you could at least point out the positive things about our community. We did a lot to support you.

For the record, I don't think anyone here lives in the basement, though someone did get stuck in their room one time.

Oh and Dan, thanks for continuing the dialogue here.

_________________
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Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:12 pm

krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice

Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago

rose wrote:

And, if we aren't good enough for them, that is their loss. I'm not interested in trying to convince snobbish marketers that we deserve their time and attention. They can stick with their current customers and keep desperately doing things the same old ways and die off like the makers of the buggy whip. I know, maybe they can do a Superbowl ad!

Ah, yes, this!

It's not a bad thing to continue to try and convince agencies and ad departments at studios, etc., that what ARGs generally attempt to do is really all not that strange and marginal. It's a difficult job, and sometimes garners little return on investment. So, you know, I get the energy spent on making presentations that attempt to bridge that gap.

The 'hair of the dog that bit ya' solution seems absolutely antithetical to educating marketers, however, because it plays right back into the fears by giving them value. Additionally? It breaks my (and many others') one OTHER rule about developing ARGs: respect the player.

I mean, it's all well and good to be lighthearted and such about what NERDS all these people must be that play these games and get excited about bits of text on a 'bunch of websites' whilst helicopters zoom by, but man oh man, the players are really so amazing, as a group, and also very often individually. And it's just, I don't know, disappointing to see that old chestnut of 'basement dwellers' trotted out again, as if that sentiment gains currency the more someone uses it, even if you meant exactly the opposite, and you were being all hipster ironic or something. (OK, I admit it: Devil's Advocate stuff tends to really turn me off.)

I would love to see the players touted more in general when ARGs are being defended and explained to entities who are in the position of being able to fund cool projects. There is an exciting dynamic there, and it feels less useful to put the players into some passive 'audience' heading, as if the Puppetmaster is a benevolent dictator, dishing out story and puzzles and handfuls of websites.

Any one of us who has played an ARG and felt that sense of wonder and discovery understands that dynamic, and it can be pretty powerful to have devs utilize and demonstrate that when making their case. It's not as if there's a dearth of evidence to support this, either. This whole forum is chock-full of anecdotes and remembrances of cool moments involving interesting individuals who are quite probably at 0% nerd level.

_________________
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xbl gamertag: krystyn

Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 12:03 am

rose
...and then Magic happens

Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

Quote:

I mean, it's all well and good to be lighthearted and such about what NERDS all these people must be that play these games and get excited about bits of text on a 'bunch of websites' whilst helicopters zoom by, but man oh man, the players are really so amazing, as a group, and also very often individually. And it's just, I don't know, disappointing to see that old chestnut of 'basement dwellers' trotted out again, as if that sentiment gains currency the more someone uses it, even if you meant exactly the opposite, and you were being all hipster ironic or something. (OK, I admit it: Devil's Advocate stuff tends to really turn me off.)

Yeah, I agree with this. Of course. I don't see how doing a presentation that reinforces some ignorant stereotypes about players helps convince anyone that they should use ARGs in marketing. I'm fairly incensed about Dan or anyone else putting us down because, as you said, we're amazing. And the genre is...can be...amazing.

Anyone who doesn't grasp that is, as I contend, not very smart. I've used ARGs as a test of whether someone is interesting or not. Most people get excited about the ideas of stories being told in new ways, the possibilities of collaboration, etc. I was dead serious that marketers who don't get it just aren't very smart.

Don't Dan and Adrian get some of their "ARG cred" from being Cloudmakers? As far as I know, they've never lived in the basement. Maybe we should do a poll to see if anyone lives in the basement. Not that I think there is anything wrong with living in the basement. Wink

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Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 12:39 am
Last edited by rose on Sat Dec 27, 2008 1:08 am; edited 1 time in total

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