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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: General » ARG: This Is My Milwaukee
[META] Whine about the PMs
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Nonoyes?
Guest


 		maybe
perhaps
Quote:
The source of these complaints isn't really about game design, even though you're labeling it that: you're really arguing about community dynamics.

Which is a problem that should be addressed in the design phase. If the PMs here didn't know how ARGs work to begin with - there's significant evidence of this being a small grass-roots group - yeah sure that's fine and all, but people are absolutely going to comment the shit out of the problems that came up as a result of too little research into an established field.

Quote:
You're wanting a certain pace of development, and I can tell you from experience that the pace that this community wants developments is frequently faster than what a community designer should spool them out.

But the problem isn't whether specific people have patience, it's holding the attention of the consumer (...which is sorta the same problem on a larger scale, I suppose). Development aside, without at least minimal communication IG, people are going to wonder if this is worth following, and I can't imagine this issue not coming up pre-execution if they intended to make an ARG (though, as mentioned, it's entirely likely that this isn't a group that sat down and said "Ok - let's make an ARG" - but in this case, such comments would be for the education of the PMs as they come to terms with their harrowing task).

Quote:
It is, in essence, a variant of the "powergamer vs. non-powergamer MMO dilemma" and it isn't always "bad game design" to let part of that dynamic drag back expectations. Just sayin'.

"Bad game design" is relative to your audience, though - ARGs are already a niche market. You need to explore the market before you even propose the product. Since TIMM seems to be immersive enough, it isn't a huge problem that it's getting a little annoying - but that patience runs out for even the most hardcore players. That people are speaking out about the silence is a sign that they like the game and want to do something with the time that would otherwise be spent working on it. Otherwise we'd all just leave and do better things with our lives than play detective. I.E., designers need to anticipate that the players are going to be doing this in their free time, and will be people who have enough free time to devote to exploring an alternate reality - we're not talking something you squeeze in on a lunch break every couple weeks or so.

And if you didn't guess, yes I'm arguing just for the sake of arguing. I get where you're coming from, and I agree. The perceived negativity for these PMs is unwarranted and ARGs are still experimental in nature. I have to agree with Relia, though; it doesn't make sense to not produce at least some communication to prove it's still alive. At any rate, we don't even know how IG Jagoda uses Twitter in post-apocalyptic Milwaukee, so it's not like there's a great excuse for radio silence.

In particular, why does anyone expect that a given group of PMs will read (or care about) a set of rules they didn't create? ARGs get a lot less AR-ey when you impose restrictions like that. Personally, I like the idea that Player A could be working with Player B, neither knowing if the other is a little more well-informed than they let on - the trick is for PMs to achieve that effectively, and for the most part, I don't think most would bother. Having one guy jump in, drop a load of information, then pack up and leave without a trace is not a delicate way to do this - and people are going to dislike that whether or not you write up a TOS about it (which literally does nothing to deter them in the first place).

krystyn wrote:
You should totally start a thread in the Meta section of the Unforums about scalability and frustration thresholds! It's a good topic, fer shure.

To be honest, aside from TIMM, I'm not even sure what this forum is about. To touch on the idea of that random guy finding this specific forum, I was directed here off a google search for "This Is My Milwaukee," and I've never visited outside the TIMM forum.

I think I made an account, but I can't remember what the username was, which has me a little miffed, and I promised a friend of mine I'd quit the forum scene, and blablabla... We'll see.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:43 pm
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Relia
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Joined: 19 Dec 2008
Posts: 141
jebreject wrote:
Everything Relia says here is golden!


So is the Champion Dynasty Fund! <3

Seriously, though, I think a lot of people have had interesting and valid reactions on this thread and elsewhere. More than anything, I'm of the opinion that just us discussing this is (or could be) helpful to the PMs as far as giving them a gauge of sorts to know how we're reacting to the game, what things we liked best, what didn't work as well for us, how we approach the ARG experience in general. Really, I enjoy reading what people have to say -- it shapes my own opinions a lot too. Smile

So, errr, I think you're all neat. XD <3

PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:46 pm
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level ultraviolet
Guest


 		Re: maybe
perhaps
Quote:
Personally, I like the idea that Player A could be working with Player B, neither knowing if the other is a little more well-informed than they let on - the trick is for PMs to achieve that effectively, and for the most part, I don't think most would bother.


oh man, there's an old pen&paper role playing game called "paranoia" which does just this... every character knows secrets about the campaigns and adventures that they're supposed to keep secret from every other character, yet they're all still supposed to accomplish their missions, both the obvious ones and the covert ones.

the GM then uses the players and their secrets both to further each other's missions and to pit them against each other, and none of the players can ever be QUITE sure what exactly is going on.

that was an awesome game.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:01 pm
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BostonBeats4
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Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 109
Relia wrote:
So, errr, I think you're all neat. XD <3


You're both neat and very correct about everything you just said all at the same time Smile

PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:46 am
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lhall
Unfettered


Joined: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 411
Location: Portland, Oregon
krystyn wrote:
So, I don't think it's sad that a few people are expressing their discomfort with the near-complete radio silence (broken, if you don't know, by an OOG message sent by one of the puppetWHATS? just a few days ago) - in fact, speculation on an in-game reason has still been tossed around along with the meta discussion.


This.

And also this and this:

Relia wrote:
I must disagree; I don't know that I ever specified I wanted new developments, just consistent communication. Communication, in any form, tells me one important thing: that I should still continue working.
. . .
I think you're well mistaken here -- at least where this treasure hunter is concerned. From what I can see, a lot of us here love TIMM. <3

_________________
Visit me online or on Twitter.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:04 am
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Anonymous AntipoJamesDean
Boot

Joined: 07 Feb 2009
Posts: 18
Location: Sydney Australia

 		Cleaning my room.
Absolutely don't want to cause red herrings here:

1. I have nothing to do with PMs.
2. Was dismayed by group dynamics which occur in many online communities.*
3. Want to lurk now to ensure that the disruption is forgotten.


P.S. I really think it's a good idea to keep an eye on important materials



*Because being a clique is a drawback - Krystyn:"it was something so simple a newcomer saw the flow and direction of it...so glad I had shown the puzzle to someone else that it didn't matter that I was too focused and into the context to see it.

Maybe we just need to start showing it to others. Do a little networking."

PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:31 am
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago

 		Anon Anti J D:

Don't sweat it. I am glad you were able to contribute. Very Happy

As for cliques, I think, honestly, that many communities are pretty self-healing, self-supporting, and self-moderating. Here (on this entire site, I mean, not this subforum in particular), the support and mending are severely hindered by breaches of the site's TOS. It's beyond me why any puppetmaster would willingly and easily play their own game by posing as a player, when the game world is their canvas, and they can paint anything they like within those boundaries -- it's because of these past incidents that sometimes brilliant newcomers are viewed a mite skeptically. :shakes fist at shady PMs:

Trust, man. Trust.

Jetpack
_________________
Alternate Currency
Stories and dreams, crossing my palm like silver.

xbl gamertag: krystyn

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:07 am
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Relia
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Joined: 19 Dec 2008
Posts: 141
krystyn wrote:


Trust, man. Trust.

Jetpack


It's too early in the morning. At first I looked at that "jetpack" smiley and went "....what have a pair of weird saggy boobs got to do with anything."

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:21 am
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TheRyuujinMike
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Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 87
Relia wrote:
krystyn wrote:


Trust, man. Trust.

Jetpack


It's too early in the morning. At first I looked at that "jetpack" smiley and went "....what have a pair of weird saggy boobs got to do with anything."


Everything, Relia, they have to do with everything. They are in fact the key to unlocking the mystery that is Milwaukee.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:08 am
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago

 		I think there was speculation elsewhere on these forums years ago about the jetpacks actually being pencils stuck in the gluteal muscles of the smiley. Very Happy
_________________
Alternate Currency
Stories and dreams, crossing my palm like silver.

xbl gamertag: krystyn

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:13 pm
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tstrel
Decorated

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 168
Location: Jacksonville, Fl

 		oh!
huh..
Its a jet pack?!?!

-LOL-

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:26 pm
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago
for reference
http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=173039#173039
_________________
Alternate Currency
Stories and dreams, crossing my palm like silver.

xbl gamertag: krystyn

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:33 pm
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eOgas
Boot

Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 49

 		Nope, you're all wrong. He's doing pushups, and his hands just happen to be on fire. Jetpack

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:00 pm
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areyoudeadyet
Boot

Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 22
eOgas wrote:
Nope, you're all wrong. He's doing pushups, and his hands just happen to be on fire. Jetpack

... ROCKET pushups.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:48 pm
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BostonBeats4
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Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 109

 		24 hrs and not a single post about the game......They seriously need to get this rollin again

PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:50 am
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