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Author Message
Shadow E. Coyote
Guest


 		 Shadow is a pompous ass!
Um, sorry?
First off, myself and Storm have read the TOS, and have already apologized for breaking them. And secondly, how can you all say that's it's not personal? You say read, but have you been following what people have been saying? I myself was called a pompous ass by teh_lisa (Not that I minded by the way, just illustrating the point)

But either way, this is all so familiar...

It's an old form of arguing to dismiss perfectly reasonable / logical points and then claim that the person making them knows nothing and should read more. Or that if you don't like a particular rule, you can always leave. Many religions use 'shunning' as a coercive tactic, and it's true this is technically a 'private space' that may not be covered by the first amendment, but so too were 'all white golf courses'.

The tactics used here really are very similar to ones we've encountered when debating theology with devout Hindus or Hari Krishna's - they are not actually interested in real discussion, rather, following the will of their Guru as indoctrination of the new person (or getting them to shut up as to not taint others) is most often the point. It's almost never about a free exchange of ideas, which is very much what it feels like in here.

Instead of welcoming divergent ideas (and I'm in no way saying that these ideas are 'new' or cutting edge - as so many of you seem be claiming I am claiming. Nor am I saying that these things haven't been said before.) No, instead of embracing difference, instead of rephrasing, nut-shelling, or even attempting to teach the newcomers, or even just ignore them for that matter, no, it's polemic arguments, personal attacks, and the ignoring of legitimate points.

I've been around a lot of gamers, but nowhere does this fanatic-like vibe seem to be more present than in the ARG community. I think that it's because, unlike in other game structures, the PM is much like a Guru or spiritual leader with the players focussing all their attention on what the PM wants. In other games, the focus is on the players, but really in ARGing (as it is presently being played), it seems that the opposite is true. So the ripples that you are saying that have happened before are being felt here once again - now why do you think that is? Clearly something is wrong with the system, or, it's just human nature that much like Lucifer challenging the system of heaven, we humans abhor too much structure and fight against it.

Sure it''s 'just a game', or 'just a forum', but really look at the emotions flying around in here - in all seriousness - these are the seeds of war - you have people shouting FREEDOM and openness vs people wanting Conservatism and Closedness. From a gaming standpoint the social dynamics going on in here are all very fascinating. (Yes, yes, I can hear you typing now, I'm smug, I'm not that cutting edge, I'm this and that... But beyond your dislike for me, or how I say it, you have to admit that it really is interesting... - and yes, someone will now say no just to make the point, but I find that fascinating as well.)

Oh, and to keep with the rules and all - here's an update on Star's game...

Seems as if her game is not over... William still has not revealed himself, and has invited Star to continue playing. She got another package and is on her way with MP to a 24hr. p.o. box somewhere downtown. There was a letter, a book, instructions, and she was told to bring a mask.

OK, now believe me or not, (like I said, I'll play by your rules seeing as I'm here visiting your mosque) but myself, Storm, or to my knowledge none of her friends have anything to do with this. The game is on, and for those of you that still care to follow, she'll be commenting about it all very soon.

Now before the onslaught...

- I mean you no harm.
- Though tongue-in-cheek at times, really I mean you no offense.
- I don't think I am being very clever or cutting edge.
- I know that this isn't new.
- I get the rules, I understand them, and though I disagree, will play by your rules.
- I'm really not that bad, and am only interested in what the future of gaming has to offer, and no that doesn't make me better or cutting edge (a phrase you all seem to like in here - you doth protest too loudly?)
- Oh and sorry for that last one - I couldn't resist. Wink

If I shadow have offended,
Think but this (and all is mended),
That you have but slumber'd here,
While these visions did appear.
And this weak and idle theme,
No more yielding but a dream,
Gentles, do not reprehend.
I shadow has made amend.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:51 pm
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xnbomb
Unfettered


Joined: 13 Oct 2003
Posts: 660
Location: J302B S8JDC

 		Puck, you?

I wouldn't presume to speak for anyone else, but for my part: I'm afraid my interest in your point of view is going to be quite proportionate to your interest in mine. And since when I read your previous post, what I see is something like:

Shadow E. Coyote, paraphrased broadly, wrote:
Nothing you've written makes any difference to me, and I don't care what you value / think / have previously expressed on this topic, even if it represents careful and lengthy consideration of propositions quite akin to those that I am making.

I think we are at an impasse.

Dunno
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:09 pm
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notgordian
Unfictologist


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 1383
Location: Philly

 		In an attempt to move the conversation to a more META setting, I created a thread to continue discussion here.

Hopefully, people still interested in playing this game will be able to do so here without having to scroll through a long discussion.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:16 pm
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CrispyG4
Veteran

Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Tallahassee, FL

 		Re: Shadow is a pompous ass!
Um, sorry?
Shadow E. Coyote wrote:

It's an old form of arguing to dismiss perfectly reasonable / logical points and then claim that the person making them knows nothing and should read more. Or that if you don't like a particular rule, you can always leave. Many religions use 'shunning' as a coercive tactic, and it's true this is technically a 'private space' that may not be covered by the first amendment, but so too were 'all white golf courses'.


Whoaaa there buddy. Did you really just compare us to racists in the past? For seriously? I think you need to take a step back and hop off the high horse there, chief. When you start comparing an argument over the internet over, what, ideals of a small niche of people on the internet to the oppression of millions world-wide, I think you need to stop your holier than thou attitude and just drop it.

Shadow E. Coyote wrote:
The tactics used here really are very similar to ones we've encountered when debating theology with devout Hindus or Hari Krishna's - they are not actually interested in real discussion, rather, following the will of their Guru as indoctrination of the new person (or getting them to shut up as to not taint others) is most often the point. It's almost never about a free exchange of ideas, which is very much what it feels like in here.


Perhaps we have a fundamental misunderstanding here. First off, you are again comparing us to Hindus and Hari Krishna's (which, on a side note, who gives two flying hells? subtopical arguement, much?) and I don't really understand the logic there. Saying that we, like them, are closed-minded and conservative and don't support the free exchange of ideas? Perhaps you missed the part where we have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER WITH WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. The problem we have is when you use the space designated for GAMING to preach and practice these ideas, and in turns BREAK OUR RULES. If you had made a meta thread about your ideas, NO ONE WOULD CARE. I'm sorry to get all caps locky on you but I'm not going to sit here and have passive aggressive ad hominems thrown around because you don't get the point we're trying to make.

Shadow E. Coyote wrote:
Instead of welcoming divergent ideas (and I'm in no way saying that these ideas are 'new' or cutting edge - as so many of you seem be claiming I am claiming. Nor am I saying that these things haven't been said before.) No, instead of embracing difference, instead of rephrasing, nut-shelling, or even attempting to teach the newcomers, or even just ignore them for that matter, no, it's polemic arguments, personal attacks, and the ignoring of legitimate points.


IIRC, you originally came in here guns blazing about your first amendment rights like some hippy lawyer looking to make a quick buck. Then, when you came off like a pompous ass, arguing point we had already addressed and that would not have been needed to be brought up had you actually had knowledge of what went on here, we called you on it, and thusly we are at impasse.

Shadow E. Coyote wrote:
I've been around a lot of gamers, but nowhere does this fanatic-like vibe seem to be more present than in the ARG community. I think that it's because, unlike in other game structures, the PM is much like a Guru or spiritual leader with the players focussing all their attention on what the PM wants. In other games, the focus is on the players, but really in ARGing (as it is presently being played), it seems that the opposite is true. So the ripples that you are saying that have happened before are being felt here once again - now why do you think that is? Clearly something is wrong with the system, or, it's just human nature that much like Lucifer challenging the system of heaven, we humans abhor too much structure and fight against it.


I'm not going to bother constructing an in-depth reply here. Hopefully you will see how foolish it is for you to try and use bible stories and human nature to suggest the changing of a) our TOS or b) ARG gaming in general. Feel free to see it as me not BEING ABLE to rather than me NOT WANTING to, but I could care less what you think at this point.

Shadow E. Coyote wrote:
Sure it''s 'just a game', or 'just a forum', but really look at the emotions flying around in here - in all seriousness - these are the seeds of war - you have people shouting FREEDOM and openness vs people wanting Conservatism and Closedness. From a gaming standpoint the social dynamics going on in here are all very fascinating. (Yes, yes, I can hear you typing now, I'm smug, I'm not that cutting edge, I'm this and that... But beyond your dislike for me, or how I say it, you have to admit that it really is interesting... - and yes, someone will now say no just to make the point, but I find that fascinating as well.)


Emotions? So we're going to get into Emotions, Mr. "ARG Dogma and First Amendment Rights!" Like I said, I'm pretty sure you came in here guns blazing. Flow that to the opposition.

Now, to your points.

Shadow E. Coyote wrote:
- I mean you no harm.
Passive Aggressive, please don't try and pull the "no really I don't mean offense but you're an asshole" stuff. Just be a man and accept the attacks you're throwing out.

Shadow E. Coyote wrote:
- Though tongue-in-cheek at times, really I mean you no offense.
See above.

The rest of them, whatever.


Shadow E. Coyote wrote:
If I shadow have offended,
Think but this (and all is mended),
That you have but slumber'd here,
While these visions did appear.
And this weak and idle theme,
No more yielding but a dream,
Gentles, do not reprehend.
I shadow has made amend.


Don't write any more poems.

And for these reasons I believe you should vote an oppositional ballot.
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Playing: 77 Days

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:49 pm
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faeryqueen21
Unfictologist


Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Posts: 1348
Location: Pasadena, CA

 		Wow, for all of the talk of "open-mindedness" there sure has been a lot of bashing of religions up in here. What's with that?


And CrispyG4, he was quoting Shakespeare, A Midsummer Nights Dream Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:56 pm
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CrispyG4
Veteran

Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Tallahassee, FL

 		I'm aware. I don't like the changes. Hrumph. Evil or Very Mad
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:03 pm
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Shadow E. Coyote
Guest


 		 No humour and apparently no poetry...
Isn't Crispy breaking the rules?
I couldn't have said any of it better CrispyG4, you actually proved my point to the letter. Holy dogma Batman... Now as to not break the rules any further, shouldn't you be posting in the new thread? If you want to continue this (though I seriously doubt you do), then let's talk freedom and free speech in there shall we?

Oh, and I didn't write the poem, I borrowed it from Shakespeare.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:05 pm
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ndemeter
Entrenched


Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 1037
Location: Sunny California!

 		I am stacking titles.

So far I am:

a Nazi
a Muslim fundamentalist
a racist/white supermacist (I guess see Nazi above)
a devout Hindu
a Hari Krishna
a conservative
an Anticonstitutionalist

All for pointing out to Star and friends that blatantly broke the TOS and attempted to explain why it is a bad thing and we have that TOS to begin with.

Oh, and by the way my two "real" friends Johnny B. Goode and Dan D. Lyons wanted to say hi! Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:11 pm
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air_wick
Greenhorn

Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 9
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:16 pm
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Shadow E. Coyote
Guest


 		 The new thread anyone? What about the RULES?!!!
I LOVE this site!
No religious bashing faeryqueen21, it's just that some people can be very hard to talk to especially when they only see things from only one limited perspective. We actually love all religions, just not the controls that often comes with fundamentalism - and that's not just for religions but for anyone who likes to see things in black and white.

Really I'm just having fun, and believe it our not, I actually don't disrespect the goings on in here. Actually most of the moderators have been very accommodating and it's really open of them to not erase posts. Sure, I do take issue with some of the controls, but really it's no big deal - I just like watching people loose it with a simple turn of phrase. Though tight controls technically are fascist, and my comparison with a fundamentalist mosque, though inflammatory, is technically not that far off, I actually don't think that what the moderators are asking - is really all that problematic to follow - as I've said, and other than this response, I'll be move this into the new thread...

I am interested not only in the views of everyone in here, (opposing or otherwise), but I really like to see what points people like to make to defend their position, and I especially like it when people resort to more base or even offensive counter attacks. It's all a game to me, and the more people play the more points I get...

See, that was a joke - the kind of thing I am talking about that infuriates and gets people like Crispy64 to fling poo around... How can you NOT love it in here it's hilarious!

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:25 pm
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Wiser
Decorated


Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 251
Location: 127.0.0.1

 		Re: The new thread anyone? What about the RULES?!!!
I LOVE this site!
Shadow E. Coyote wrote:
No religious bashing faeryqueen21, it's just that some people can be very hard to talk to especially when they only see things from only one limited perspective. We actually love all religions, just not the controls that often comes with fundamentalism - and that's not just for religions but for anyone who likes to see things in black and white.

Really I'm just having fun, and believe it our not, I actually don't disrespect the goings on in here. Actually most of the moderators have been very accommodating and it's really open of them to not erase posts. Sure, I do take issue with some of the controls, but really it's no big deal - I just like watching people loose it with a simple turn of phrase. Though tight controls technically are fascist, and my comparison with a fundamentalist mosque, though inflammatory, is technically not that far off, I actually don't think that what the moderators are asking - is really all that problematic to follow - as I've said, and other than this response, I'll be move this into the new thread...

I am interested not only in the views of everyone in here, (opposing or otherwise), but I really like to see what points people like to make to defend their position, and I especially like it when people resort to more base or even offensive counter attacks. It's all a game to me, and the more people play the more points I get...

See, that was a joke - the kind of thing I am talking about that infuriates and gets people like Crispy64 to fling poo around... How can you NOT love it in here it's hilarious!

Because you're a troll?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:32 pm
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CrispyG4
Veteran

Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 115
Location: Tallahassee, FL

 		Oh, so you admit you are a troll? Rules are off, then I guess.

It's interesting because I was hoping maybe you'd provide a good argument, but by admitting you're a troll you've pretty much made it useless at this point. Meh.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:35 pm
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Gupfee
Site Admin


Joined: 22 Sep 2002
Posts: 817
Location: Massachusetts

 		Let's move on, shall we?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:40 pm
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catherwood
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee

Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 4109
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
notgordian wrote:
In an attempt to move the conversation to a more META setting, I created a thread to continue discussion here.

Hopefully, people still interested in playing this game will be able to do so here without having to scroll through a long discussion.

I don't know whether or not the game will continue in this thread; I seriously doubt it from what I understand of the situation. This thread could just as easily been split and moved by a moderator, rather than starting another one, but this one won't be locked now.

I have to be honest, I wasn't even reading the thread before today, since I'm not interested in this kind of game. However, I do enjoy the meta discussions, when they remain civil and present interesting new ideas for evaluation. It's just hard to see anything new in any of this, but the emotion has been enlightening.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:47 pm
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Shadow E. Coyote
Guest


 		Not a troll..
Saying things that are disagreed with does not a troll make...
The discussion actually has been moved to the thread, and yes, Star' is continuing posts about her game in here - she's currently hunting clues as we speak...

And though I may phrase things in a way that gets people like Crispy64 well, a little crispy, that does not make me a troll, my points still stand, and are quite valid. I have even received a few emails of support - one of which specifically requested not mentioning (which I will honour) who they are for fear of chastisement by the 'community'...

Again, just cause I like the emotion and poo flinging, does not make me or my points trollish...

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:24 am
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