unforum

[catherwood]

[jelloarm]

So what label would you give the now-infamous WUF branch?

Gamejack is clearly inappropriate - it was done with PM permission, and even cooperation. Chaotic Fiction is closer, but it wasn't fully interactive - someone was running it, and the players were expected to operate within the rules of general ARG-dom. The newly-coined Perpetual ARG Machine (tm) isn't applicable either - no one else is running anything else inside it yet (though it remains that it may become that, depending on how things develop...) And it's become clear that calling it 'ARG' makes for a lot of often-heated meta discussions on what is ARG, and how it may or may not be applicable, and the general consensus is that ARG is probably not the right term.

Also, isn't it usually up the players to tag something? I generally see [ARG] or [CF] added to the beginning of trailhead topics, as the players decide what they think it is. You don't log into the IG forum and see "ARG" blazoned across the banner. The PM makes the game, and it is up to the players to decide whether or not they want to play - I feel that players getting frustrated with it 'not being the kind of game they thought' is not the PMs, or even the player's faults. It's a faultless occurance that happens when people create expectations. You can't blame the PMs for not advertising (not without peeling back the curtain) or the players for being human, and crafting expectations based on past experiences.

[Nighthawk]

[ALISDAIRPARK]

There's a couple of things I'd like to pick out from the recent posts.

Terminology - I always took ARGing as the whole genre, although that is now more commonly CF, and ARGs have become the specific game within that . So, Catherwood, you're right about how we name things, although to name them we almost by default have to create a definition.

Expectation - this now seems to be the core element of the debate. We all agree different games appeal to different players. So how can you set player's expectations within TINAG? Or should we just create and run the game and not care? Both options create problems, but I'm now leaning towards the first, wouldn't it be more satisfying for both sides if we can clearly set out at the start "This is an ARG/ Experience/ Sandbox...."?

If you think about other games, there's always a description on the box. IMHO we should do this for all aspects of CF, some way of taking 5 minutes to say "here's what you'll be playing". (keeping it high level, and withoutgiving away twists, turns, and mysteries obviously). Seriously how much better would it be if at the start of every game (or pre-game) we have a clear view of what it is?....and there are precidents, Perplexcity did it, which is surely the most commercially successful game ever.

Then there's just the aspect of games within games, or changes in direction, however I still think the same thing applies.

...so then the question would be, How best to do it?

[pancito]

Okay, just had a thought. For catherwood, here's a first cut.

========

Call it Perpetual ARG Machine for the moment, because it becomes PAM and that's memorable. I like Cooperative Chaotic Game as well. But I don't know what to call it because I don't know what it is, yet.

I think trying to define it, and by that I mean set all limits so that it is clearly distinguishable from other similar modes within the genre of ARG or CF or whatever top-level term we want to use, is pointless at this time. We can't even do that with ARG.

I can list a few of the properties I'm thinking about.

PAM (for the moment) exists in a shared gamespace that includes MPM, PM, mPM and player created virtual alternate realities. It might leak into any user changeable part of the gamespace. e.g. blog comments, etc.

It has a hierarchical arrangement of privileges and responsibilities for participation in and creation of games, stories, experiences etc. The hirearchy is fluid and may exist in different arrangements for the same participants in different areas of the gamespace or at different times.

Let me define those terms, briefly. My name in RL is Steve. I am also a player of various ARG-like games who is called Pancito. (I'll use the P to distinguish). In WuF I have a character named pancito. He happens to be a sot and own a parrot, something I'm not and don't. Pancito runs a very minor game using the characters pancito and Hotwing. I could argue that he's the mPM of that game, though really it's just role play. Pancito, along with a couple of other players, is running a game called Clue using the character of MrKrop, primarily. They are PMs of Clue. This game is under the watchful eye of the MPM who uses the character The Emperor to control the gamespace. A player might come to me and say 'I'm going to set up Dick's Detective Agency to catch the killer. I'll recruit detectives, etc." This player is now a mPM under the Clue PM. Dick's may outlast Clue, and elevate to PM, or games may spin off of it, or what ever. The terms need to be fluid, because the gamespace is.

It has a shared universe approach. Once something has happened it has to be considered in all future events. It may or may not play a significant role. (No time machines, unless that's the type of universe that's agreed upon.)

It may contain elements of role playing, chaotic fiction, ARG, social functions, and or pastries.

Original creators have final control of the destiny of any character created, including the right to cede control.

Ground rules may be dictated or arrived at by consensus, but should be observed whenever possible.

Creativity should be encouraged.

Players should expect to wear different hats. (If an MPM wants to become a player in a PM or mPM activity they leave their MPMness at the door.)

Multiple characters created by the same players should be allowed, but they should have a specific purpose.

There should be MPMs that are responsible for maintaining the central gamespace and for adjudicating disagreements. Among other things.

No player should be required to participate in any PM or mPM created activity. This implies that PMs and mPMs shouldn't create content that requires all players to do any particular thing. (On the other hand, I think it'd be fun to see someone try to impose martial law on this crowd...)

Play nice. Don't be deliberately obtuse. Don't create zombies just because you can. Don't do anything just because you can. Do it because it works for and within the gamespace.

===========

Like I said, first cut. Feel free to add, subtract, thrash, trash or ignore.

==========

[catherwood]

[Silent|away]

Why not call it just a mini-ARG? You want to form a mini-ARG, you ask the main-ARG PM to do it. The main PM grants you premission, you get to run your mini-ARG in the context of the main-ARG.

There. Less terminology to learn.

[Silent]

And you know what? I'm going to come out and state that WUF may not end very well. Games that are open-ended are...well...just that, open-ended.

There is no endgame.

That what makes ARGs interesting. You have a begining, you have a middle, you have an end. And once you reach that end, it's over.

If there is nobody telling the people playing WUF, "Game Over. You can go home now," or "You saved the Princess. Now Get Out!" then I think it is best to see WUF as just an Forum RP, the one you see at other forums, like the the 1990's Final Fanasty RPs. And Forum RPs usually degenerate and die a slow death, unlike the quick death of ARGs.

That's not to say it's bad. People playing WUF may have fun, and WUF may last a long time. It's just that WUF isn't revolutionary, and that there will eventually be a lack of interest and degeneration of the game.

[jelloarm]

Except, Silent, that there are ends to WUF. Whereas in an RP forum (which I've done more than my fair share of posts on...) you only develop your character and the story, in this PAM(tm) idea, you create machinations with very specific end-points. One leads to another, or leads to nothing, but there is someone clearly in charge of areas outside of just your individual character, which is something that doesn't normally happen in a standard RP thread. So we rescue the princess - instead of being told to GTFO, someone else creates a corrupt vizier that now tries to capitalize on the princess being rescued, possibly with intent to marry and become emporer/king/enlightened despot himself.

Also, being an RP vet, I have much more faith in the ARGing community's ability to create a compelling story

[Silent]

That would be nice, except I played in RP Forums with these "storylines", that occur, one after another, and even they start to degenerate as people lose interest. Sure, you now got the corrupt vizer storyline, maybe ending with the corrupt vizer overthrown, the Revolution happening, and the princess getting beheaded. Then what? Now you have a second story, with the princess' daughter waging war to restore the monarchy...then you get a third storyline with the war to spread democracy, and maybe, just maybe, you might have a storyline where France will withdraw from NATO.

People are just going to get tired of the countless storylines, one after another, and if somebody leaves for 6 months, they might come back and be shocked to see half the royal family dead.

I guess you could call it a "Managed Forum RP", if you really like the term. You got GMs/PMs running the show, but they plan on running the show perpetually, and when one story ends another one begin. I think it will peter out just like the other RPs. Though they might have a longer shelf-life, as there is at least one person who want to keep the game going, the main PM/GM.

Maybe WUF may work better, but I doubt it. Will be pleasently surprised if I get proven wrong though.

[pancito]

I think Silent is right on this. But who cares. When you loose critical mass, or everyone has done everything they can think of, you do something else. WuF is now boring? Fine. Oh look. NuF. Or Save the Cheerleader. Or... Nothing is forever.

Why not mini-ARG? I'm okay with that. ("But it's not ARG! It's Hobbyhorse!")

ETA: Because I somehow missed catherwood's 2nd post.

Item #2 on your list was the way this entire bruhaha got started. Or this segment of it. This was the gray area for us and I think would be in any similar situation. I'm assuming you're using Player in the same way I did above, i.e. my UnF persona. I clearly can't, in that role, post anything that geeks my mini-ARG. But can I comment on other mini-ARGs, or the social elements, or Scattergories, which may or may not be a mini-game depending on how you squint and how much I in my role as PM of a mini-game use that element to further my mini-game. At the time (before WuF was moved to CF with P) being able to partake of the social and game elements that happen on UnF was important to us. Now we could spin off another thread, I think, and be okay. I wish this would happen with the Clue game. See the problem? What's your take on that?

I appreciate the more experienced members of this community trying to help us thrash this out. Thanks for that.

[Nighthawk]

[Silent|away]

I'm not saying it's farfetched, I've seen this happen, this idea has been done before.

What I am saying that the spurt of activity will soon slow to a trickle, people may get tired of the countless new stories, will not be able to keep up with all the constant changes, and hence leave the game, causing the game to slowly die. That what I mean by it not ending well. The ideal will not fufill the reality. That's all.

That why most ARGs has an endpoint, so that when the game ends, it ends for good, rather than having it continue and slowly lose the interest of the playerbase.

[thebruce]

[Silent|away]

Alright, I need your super-jargon talents here. I'm been discovering this CF, and I need to know what it is.

*Inaluct left the Bay12Games Forum to form the Various Nonense Protectatore
*Various Nonsense Protectorate moves to annex the "Other Games" board, was stopped by ToadyOne. Later, TodayOne spilt up the Various Nonsense board.
*The Various Nonsense Battle Fortress Is Created, Used to Invade the Other Boards.
*Democratic Elections to see who becomes the Baron of Various Nonsense. Aqizzar wins the elections.
*Thread where people plot to overthrow Aqizzar
*War between Aqizzar and Inaluct
*Poll to decide which faction has the most support.

Now, this is all in good fun, and it is obivous it is a CF, similar to WUF, but is this an ARG? I mean, Various Nonsense is a subboard of the Bay12Games forum. It has the right to declare itself indepedent of the rest of the forum, so the title of Baron, and the drama surronding it, seems to be actually real. We aren't dealing with demons, we're dealing with nerds getting in an argument! That's realism right there! Also, Various Nonsense did invade other subboards within Bay12Games forum, altough it got premission to do the invasion from Toady the second time.

And yet, there are also aspects of unreality in there...So is it convincing? Does it fit the traditional view of Alternate Reality Game.