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 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
Martin Aggett is a Liar
Moderators: imbri, ndemeter
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BubbleBoy
Decorated


Joined: 16 Jul 2007
Posts: 271
Location: United States

While I have not read the entire 3 pages of this topic, I still would like to post a comment on this.

First; Martin, Steve, whatever online name you have chosen for yourself, I commend you on your efforts. Your concerns about "backstory" are no more different then those concerns that others of us have had, and I am sure that there are more than a few people who have considered doing what you did. The only difference is that you saw it through.

I am not commending you on the act itself. I am commending you for taking a risk. Most people would have thought about doing this and believed the consequences of such an action were to much to bare. That the backlash wasn't worth the risk. But not you, sir. You stood up tall and jumped where others would have stepped back.

Many people will see this as a negative thing. But not I. I believe that in order for art to exist there must be some people out there who are willing to push, not only the boundaries of what is and what is not right, morally or otherwise, but also be willing to push the buttons of the public.

That being said: I did this same thing 2 years ago.

I won't go into all the details because it might come across as bragging and that is not my intent, but our situations are very similar. I created an on-line persona and got him involved in the ARG community. You created a post that got onto ARGNet. I created a voice mail and e-mail that got onto the ARGNetCast.

I created blogs and websites having to do with ARG's. I even created one blog that was dedicated too my character complaining about world events as he saw them.

I was doing what I thought the community was asking for - a character that, if searched, had an on-line history that could be found and noted. But I later figured something out that caused me to cease all of the characters activities.

I learned that a characters history is not something that is on-line, per say. It is something that is written into the story, something that players can discover through playing the game itself.

Now, I know that this might be a bit confusing on some levels, but there is actually a difference between what we, as creators, see as history and what ARG's see as history.

We see history as a past that can be traced through google searches and youtube tags. ARG's see history as a past that can be traced through character interaction and IG web-sites.

That is NOT to say that a future character can't create a freewebs blog right now for a game that will launch in a year or so... because THAT would be considered an IG web-site. It's when we start getting that character involved in the present - when no trouble is afoot, when no one has gone missing - that is when our difference in opinions on what "history" is as defined comes into conflict with how we play these games.

I've been known to cause trouble here on the forums in the past. I've posted as the PM (undetected, and without any backlash what so ever, I might add) in my own game topics. I've pushed more than my share of buttons around these parts. So, take it from someone who knows about these kinds of things. There are lessons to be learned from all of our actions. I have learned so much more by the mistakes that I have made then I have through listening to any PodCast or reading any forum topic.

Good luck in all of your future projects and please leave the rule breaking to me.

Amateurs! Pft.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:18 am
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

I wonder if any of the PMs who have broken the rules here have any concern for how their actions affect the community as a whole? I see people thinking only of themselves, usually with ideas that are wholly unoriginal, and not mentioning any concern for the community.

I care much more about the community than I do about any individual who thinks the only way to be creative is to break rules. I note that the most successful games have always respected the community...and have always told good stories.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:59 am
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago

BubbleBoy wrote:
I've posted as the PM (undetected, and without any backlash what so ever, I might add) in my own game topics.

why?

Unless you're saying that you figured out why it was a bad idea, and are just admitting this here with some weird mixed tone of 'wisdom' and gloating.

Also, what rose said.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:35 pm
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johnny5
Entrenched

Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 995
Location: Elysian Fields

Rekidk wrote:
In other words, is it ethically irresponsible for a character to enter into a conversation with someone who doesn't know that they're talking to a character?


Man!
That's just like when I'm chatting up some young thing for a rendezvous and it turns out it's a Federal Agent...I hate when that happens.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:40 am
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TAPshooter
Boot

Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 29

Irresponsible not innovative

rose wrote:
I wonder if any of the PMs who have broken the rules here have any concern for how their actions affect the community as a whole?


What I did with Martin Aggett was not only poor game design and irresponsible, it bordered on the unethical. Anyone who holds it up as an example to be mimicked is ignoring the detrimental effect that it has on internet communities.

Internet society as a whole is built on a shaky foundation of anonymity and non-attribution. Each individual who participates in online society gets to choose how honest they want their portrayal of themselves to be. When you intentionally inject a fictional character into that society without acknowledging the fictional nature of that "person" you feed a culture of mistrust and isolationism.

Every time someone infiltrates this community with a fictional character they foster a greater community sense of mistrust of new members. If a community is hesitant to welcome newcomers then the community becomes more insular and exclusive - making it almost impossible for the community to grow it's numbers.

Much of my opinion on this issue is reflected in an article that was submitted for publication at ARGN - here is a small excerpt from that article:

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
The creation of fictional online personas and concealing their true origins is not only irresponsible game design, but borders on the unethical. It creates an imbalance in the power that is shared between game producers and players, and ignores the fundamental tenant that game play must be voluntary.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:50 am
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Varin
I Have No Life


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 2456
Location: South of where I used to be

rose wrote:
I note that the most successful games have always respected the community...and have always told good stories.


Yes, what Rose said Smile Anyone thinking of making a game should read that sentence at least 10 or 100 times.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:12 am
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BubbleBoy
Decorated


Joined: 16 Jul 2007
Posts: 271
Location: United States

krystyn wrote:
Unless you're saying that you figured out why it was a bad idea, and are just admitting this here with some weird mixed tone of 'wisdom' and gloating.


It's a very long story, but I had an OOG situation that could NOT be explained or done IG, so the forums where used to get a certain point across. The players only found out later, during the PM chat, that I had posted on the forums and nothing negative was said about it. Personally, I believe that they understood the situation and that my options were very limited.

So, no gloating. Just the point that sometimes, and very rarely, a situation calls for someone to break the rules. Yes, it's wrong, but I found that in this situation it was my only option at the time.

rose wrote:
I wonder if any of the PMs who have broken the rules here have any concern for how their actions affect the community as a whole? I see people thinking only of themselves, usually with ideas that are wholly unoriginal, and not mentioning any concern for the community.

I care much more about the community than I do about any individual who thinks the only way to be creative is to break rules. I note that the most successful games have always respected the community...and have always told good stories.


I believe that you will find that a good 95% of the "rule breaking" is done by people who don't fully understand the rules - whether it is inexperience, not reading the TOS or straight up lack of judgment.

I believe that the other 5% is unintentional. And what I mean by "unintentional" is that they are focused so much on creating an experience that people will enjoy that they don't see it's impact, or don't fully understand the impact that it will have.

Some people are sticklers when it comes to rules and people abiding by them. I am clearly NOT one of those people. I tend view things a little more positively or give people a little bit of slack here and there, giving them the "benefit of the doubt" so to speak.

If a PM posting in their games' topic is the worst thing that happens in my day, then I am having a great freakin' day.

Yes, we have rules and people should abide by them. But if they don't I'm not going to jump all over them for it.

And, yes, I do fully believe that being "creative" can lead to situations that may be seen as uncalled for. But I don't want to take the option of being "creative" in an extreme way away from people. Just because they are afraid of what might happen if they try this or that doesn't mean that they should not try it.

If they try it and it doesn't work or people don't respond positively too it (and please understand that, whether we like it or not, the community will tell us what is uncalled for, not you or I) then we'll know not to try it. But I don't want to take the passion of experimenting with ideas away from people. I think that it just leads us down a road that I don't personally feel comfortable with this genre taking - I believe that you take the possible growth of the genre away.

So when I say that I commend this guy for what he did, I mean that I am happy that he tried it. Yes, it didn't work and the outcome was rather unexpected, I am sure, but I also believe that the intention was NOT a negative one.

Like I said, I tend to give people the "benefit of the doubt" when it comes to these sorts of things instead of tackling them to the ground. But that's just me.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:30 am
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago

BubbleBoy wrote:
It's a very long story, but I had an OOG situation that could NOT be explained or done IG, so the forums where used to get a certain point across.

Oh, come on, don't be coy!
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:27 am
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Rogi Ocnorb
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 4266
Location: Where the cheese is free.

Wow! is it time for another name change, already?
http://howtocreateanarg.wordpress.com/2008/03/29/the-lead-puppetmaster/

http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/search.php?search_author=itwasntmeiswear

I'm sorry. But, it's really hard to know where you stand on an issue.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:48 am
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BubbleBoy
Decorated


Joined: 16 Jul 2007
Posts: 271
Location: United States

Rogi Ocnorb wrote:
I'm sorry. But, it's really hard to know where you stand on an issue.


Our experiences make us who we are. As we get older, or even with just the passing of small amounts of time, our views and opinions on certain issues may evolve. I have had a child within the past 6 months and that has led me to view many things in a different light.

I have not clicked the links to see what I have written in the past, but I am pretty sure that I would like to edit them to express my views of the present. But I will not because these things have also made me who I am. They are just a piece of my "experience" in this genre and in life in general.

I always feel the need to write things down so that I may have a record of my experiences. Some good, some not so good. But that does not mean that I have not learned anything from those words. However, it DOES mean that there is a record of them and people who feel the need to remind me of them have the ability to do so and then I can simply explain that those were my views given my experience at those times.

But that is then and this is now and my views are now different. So I will leave it at that.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:53 am
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imbriModerator
Entrenched


Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland

Rogi Ocnorb wrote:
http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/search.php?search_author=itwasntmeiswear
I'm sorry. But, it's really hard to know where you stand on an issue.
BubbleBoy wrote:
I have not clicked the links to see what I have written in the past, but I am pretty sure that I would like to edit them to express my views of the present. But I will not because these things have also made me who I am.
...
I always feel the need to write things down so that I may have a record of my experiences. Some good, some not so good. But that does not mean that I have not learned anything from those words. However, it DOES mean that there is a record of them and people who feel the need to remind me of them have the ability to do so and then I can simply explain that those were my views given my experience at those times.


Now that's just funny!

But, back on topic...
BubbleBoy wrote:
So when I say that I commend this guy for what he did, I mean that I am happy that he tried it. Yes, it didn't work and the outcome was rather unexpected, I am sure, but I also believe that the intention was NOT a negative one.


I don't see what there is to commend here.

Don't get me wrong - I am all for trying new things. Many of us would really like to see more experimentation and playing this genre. As much as I like the "Beast style ARG" there is so much more out there - whether they've already been tried or not. Please - try new things, explore! Whether it's a happy accident of someone playing with ideas similar to ARGs or some crazy ideas growing out of the community - I don't care, I just want to see it.

But, I have a hard time commending someone for just going out and doing something without thinking it through. I mean it's not as if what Steve did here was anything new or groundbreaking. Sure, it was the first time the ARG community had been infiltrated to such an extent but it most definitely wasn't the first time that this happened. ARGTalk, for example, worked its way into the community but did so in a manner that did not violate trust as deeply (and considering how mean and bitter the characters were, it was actually a bit of a relief that they were just characters mocking the community).

There was plenty of stuff out there for Steve to look at and build off of - from looking at hoaxes (Kaycee Nicole) to embedded ARG characters (PixelVixen) to blurring ARG meta realities (ARGTalk). If he had looked at those and put some thought into the process, there might be something to commend. But, as it happened, it was just some guy thinking he was doing something cool and wonderful and breaking rules and violating trust without putting any thought into the hows and whys of it all - once he started thinking about it, he had regrets that led to him backing out of his design decisions and seeking forgiveness from the community. That backing out may be worthy of some commendation but launching a character without thinking about the design implications - not so much.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:21 am
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Gupfee
Site Admin


Joined: 22 Sep 2002
Posts: 817
Location: Massachusetts

BubbleBoy wrote:

I have not clicked the links to see what I have written in the past, but I am pretty sure that I would like to edit them to express my views of the present. But I will not because these things have also made me who I am. They are just a piece of my "experience" in this genre and in life in general.


I for one, would love to know how your views of the present differ from these views from the past. Could you please look at the links and do a compare/contrast for us?

http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/search.php?search_author=itwasntmeiswear
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:37 am
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ndemeterModerator
Entrenched


Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 1037
Location: Sunny California!

He was more of a 'p' person. Now he's more of a 'e' and heading towards 'q'.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:25 am
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konamouse
Official uF Dietitian


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 8010
Location: My own alternate reality

Gupfee wrote:
I for one, would love to know how your views of the present differ from these views from the past. Could you please look at the links and do a compare/contrast for us?

http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/search.php?search_author=itwasntmeiswear


Too bad so many of those post are pointless "p"s now (i.e. edited and lost)
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:26 am
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johnny5
Entrenched

Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 995
Location: Elysian Fields

Comedy Gold.

This should be a road show...
or maybe an ARG.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:00 pm
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