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 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
Martin Aggett is a Liar
Moderators: imbri, ndemeter
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BubbleBoy
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Joined: 16 Jul 2007
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Location: United States
imbri wrote:
Now that's just funny!


Shhhh... they'll think I have a sense of humor. I don't need that sort of pressure in my life.

imbri wrote:
I don't see what there is to commend here...


In an effort to not repeat myself...

BubbleBoy wrote:
I am not commending you on the act itself. I am commending you for taking a risk.


I understand what you are saying and I am not disagreeing with you, or anyone else here for that matter. I know that he understands his mistake and that he came forward because he finally saw the problem/outcome and attempted to fix the situation in any way that he could. So I felt no need to structure my responses to repeat what he obviously already figured out for himself. That would be like me telling someone that I am sincerely sorry for "spending the night" with his girlfriend because she never told me she was with him and still getting jumped in a dark ally for it. Revenge is such a selfish and childish response. What is done is done.

My responses were an attempt to approach the situation/topic from a more positive angle - to try and see the good in what has transpired, rather than focus on the negative. And what was good was that the attempt to do something original was made and that someone should not be afraid to attempt to try something every once in a while, as long as they at least try to see what the possible outcomes of their actions might be.

I am sorry if I did not make myself clear in that regard.

If I could make a suggestion at this point it would be to PM one of the more experienced people here and explain too them what you want to do and they will be able to point you in the right direction and/or give you suggestions on how to approach your idea in a way that will not result in rules being broken or feelings being hurt. The people here are more than approachable and will keep whatever you tell them just between you two. So don't be afraid to ask if you have any doubts what so ever in your mind.

Gupfee wrote:
I for one, would love to know how your views of the present differ from these views from the past. Could you please look at the links and do a compare/contrast for us?


Depth.

ndemeter wrote:
He was more of a 'p' person. Now he's more of a 'e' and heading towards 'q'.


Yeah... I have no idea what that means.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:05 pm
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Pixiestix
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ndemeter wrote:
He was more of a 'p' person. Now he's more of a 'e' and heading towards 'q'.

BubbleBoy wrote:


Yeah... I have no idea what that means.


yeah, it was a joke mocking you, because your previous screen name, most of the posts were deleted and the letter p is in their place.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:59 am
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BubbleBoy
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Quote:
yeah, it was a joke mocking you, because your previous screen name, most of the posts were deleted and the letter p is in their place.


I got that part of it. I just don't know what the "e" and "q" stand for. There are some things about the internet that I still don't understand, so that went over my head. Maybe they don't mean anything and I'm taking them too literally, but it's nice to know what someone is trying to say when they are mocking you. It just doesn't have the same effect when the receiver isn't quite getting it.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:42 am
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ndemeterModerator
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 		If you look at your keyboard the letter 'p' is on the one end.....eh....nevermind...

It was indeed an attempt at jest over your old posts that were edited out by you.

Needless to say I don't agree with your "hey, I applaud someone for bending the rules" attitude because I don't agree with the concept of that in general. We don't try to steal something from a store because there is a possibility we won't get caught. And as many here have pointed out before there is nothing "original" about what this PM did.

You have attempted to make a point using your past. A past that has been edited out and replaced by "p". I just find that quite humourus.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:28 pm
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BubbleBoy
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Joined: 16 Jul 2007
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ndemeter wrote:
It was indeed an attempt at jest over your old posts that were edited out by you...You have attempted to make a point using your past. A past that has been edited out and replaced by "p". I just find that quite humourus.


Ah, I see. Okay, on some level that is funny. To mention past views consisting only of "p" could possibly be humorous, I suppose. But I guess I am taking what used to be there into account when I mention the past and not how they appear in their current state. But I get it.

ndemeter wrote:
Needless to say I don't agree with your "hey, I applaud someone for bending the rules" attitude because I don't agree with the concept of that in general.


I don't believe that for a second. You mean to tell me that you have never let anything slide? No kids coloring on your projects that are due the next day? No two pennies from the "Take One" penny jar? No going 61 in a 55? No wearing the opposite sex's underwear because they make you feel all warm and cozy-like? Really? Nothing at all? Your a "6 inches from the curb" kinda person, huh? You must be a hoot at parties.

ndemeter wrote:
We don't try to steal something from a store because there is a possibility we won't get caught.


Actually, I believe that most people who steal from a store believe that there is a possibility that they won't get caught. I don't know too many people who steal in the hopes of getting a cold cell, three poorly prepared square meals a day, being able to shower with a bunch of new "friends" or having no control over the TV remote.

Maybe a homeless person.. but that's about it.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:52 am
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


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BubbleBoy wrote:
I don't believe that for a second. You mean to tell me that you have never let anything slide? No kids coloring on your projects that are due the next day? No two pennies from the "Take One" penny jar? No going 61 in a 55? No wearing the opposite sex's underwear because they make you feel all warm and cozy-like? Really? Nothing at all? Your a "6 inches from the curb" kinda person, huh? You must be a hoot at parties.

Except you're missing the crux of the argument, here, which is that in this particular community, with this particular set of guidelines, there have been breaches of trust.

The subsequent conversation follows from that, not from some relativistic follow-through. Sure, metaphor can help out with some comparisons of concept, but telling someone they can't object to having their trust jacked at Unfiction because they once lied on their taxes is quite disengenuous, and doesn't really help anyone, does it?

I think it's time for a music video, y'all!

Nobody's Side, from Chess
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:43 am
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Coal
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Joined: 29 Jun 2009
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 		While I do think it would have generally been wrong to use a 'character' (I use the term loosely) from OOG UF existence, in an ARG, I also believe that it depends on how this is done. For example, if the character is murdered and it is super realistic, then I think that would be wrong. If it was a more light-hearted plot and after the game the user went back into UF OOG existence, then I do not think I would have a problem with that...I actually think that would create a more truthful TINAG ethos than other games.

If the 'character' exists on the UF forums and people believe it to be a 'real' person and never find out that it is a front...then no harm done, on the internet people can be whoever they like.

People are talking about trust within the community, but I don't think that someting like this happpening does break the community trust. I think, because it is extremely rare, while people might be pissed at that one person/ARG, there would not be any considerable damage to the community as a whole. I can see how it can be argued, but I just can't see everyone suddenly questioning wether all UF members are 'real' or not.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:35 am
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BubbleBoy
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krystyn wrote:
Except you're missing the crux of the argument, here, which is that in this particular community, with this particular set of guidelines, there have been breaches of trust.


Don't worry, I'm not missing it. I understand that the comment was made within the context of this forum. I was merely returning the stab that was made at me. In other words, I wasn't being 100% serious with my response. I sometimes do that with the main intention of sparking a debate on an issue. But, in this case, I was "returning a favor".

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:23 am
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imbriModerator
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Coal wrote:
If it was a more light-hearted plot and after the game the user went back into UF OOG existence, then I do not think I would have a problem with that...I actually think that would create a more truthful TINAG ethos than other games.

If there is a term or idea more misguided or misunderstood than TINAG, I would like to know what it is.

This is Not a Game... the very nature of the phrase implies that it is in fact a game. People always seem to ignore that fact.

So, if I may ask, what is a "more truthful TINAG ethos" - I mean it's not that people don't really know it's not a game, is it. That the characters are so real that we just don't know they're characters? Because, I gotta say, it's fairly important that we actually know such things. Not because of the trust issues or the moral issues but because, if we don't, then, well... what in the heck are we playing?!

If I don't know that something is a game - how am I supposed to know that I am playing? And if I don't know that I am playing, then how is it that I can play?


Coal wrote:
If the 'character' exists on the UF forums and people believe it to be a 'real' person and never find out that it is a front...then no harm done, on the internet people can be whoever they like.

If your "character" requires quotes then I'm thinking they aren't so much a character. And if we never know that they are a "front" then, well, they aren't a character - they are, as you say, a front.

There's nothing altogether wrong with that. It's just that nobody likes it. Plus, if you have to rely on such tactics, then there is something inherently wrong with the game and/or team as that's an awful use of time and resources. Even in the "clue giving" scenario - if you focus on giving your clue(s) through a poster on unfiction (or any other singular forum), then you have just closed your game off to anyone not on unfiction and/or forced your players to do enough research to discover a) unfiction b) the thread or forum on your game and c) your specific post in that thread on unfiction. I cannot remember the last time I created a game that was played in just one community place - in fact, I'm not sure that I ever have.


Coal wrote:
I think, because it is extremely rare, while people might be pissed at that one person/ARG, there would not be any considerable damage to the community as a whole. I can see how it can be argued, but I just can't see everyone suddenly questioning wether all UF members are 'real' or not.

You may not be able to see it, but I can feel it. It's not some extreme thing, but I can sense a real change in how I look at both the forum and the people on the forum. I'm more wary of posters than I was in the past and I have changed my expectations of interaction and collaboration. This is now just another place on the internet for me to broadcast my thoughts. I've learned (through Martin and others) that I should expect for there to be any sort of reciprocal give and take and, instead, I need to be prepared to be used for willingness to interact and share my thoughts. Perhaps that is a good lesson to learn... afterall, everyone has an agenda and it is rarely to give back to the community.

Though, like I said, it's nothing extreme and, obviously, I am still willing to share even though I'm fully prepared for you to be some character in an ARG looking for nothing more than to make your game more "real" or some researcher here to just take information for your thesis. However, even if it is just a minute little change, if a number of us feel it, it will have a larger impact.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:48 am
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Coal
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Joined: 29 Jun 2009
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imbri wrote:
This is Not a Game... the very nature of the phrase implies that it is in fact a game. People always seem to ignore that fact.

So, if I may ask, what is a "more truthful TINAG ethos" - I mean it's not that people don't really know it's not a game, is it. That the characters are so real that we just don't know they're characters? Because, I gotta say, it's fairly important that we actually know such things. Not because of the trust issues or the moral issues but because, if we don't, then, well... what in the heck are we playing?!

If I don't know that something is a game - how am I supposed to know that I am playing? And if I don't know that I am playing, then how is it that I can play?


You are taking my quote out of context. Even if the character seems to exist OOG in RL, once IG there can be other indicators whereby you can tell it is a game and not reality.

(NB: I am not necessarily talking in regard to UF/the UF rules, or any forum for that matter)

imbri wrote:
(In regard to people having fronts)
There's nothing altogether wrong with that. It's just that nobody likes it.


That is your opinion, not fact. If I were was having contact with people on the net (on a forum for example) who were using fronts, and I didn't know that they were doing this, I would be none the wiser; therefore I could neither like nor dislike it. I could only like or dislike 'the idea of it', and this could only be based on a perception of deception (pardon my crude wording of that, I couldn't think of a better way to put it) , seeing as I would never be able to tell if I had fallen 'victim' to it or not. I would only be able to form an opinion on each 'user' based on their actions, much as we do with everyone one we meet online or offline. We never know anyone all the time in life, thus we are all percieved as many different things to many people and each have many different fronts. These are relationships.

Coal is not my real name, so is that immoral of me? A name on a forum can be the basis of a persona. Martin/Steve seem to be very similar people if you ask me, so does it matter who he really is? The real question seems to be more related to the fact that he was going to break the forum rules and launch an ARG off the back of his 'front' (no pun intended).

I am not looking for argument, I mean no offence. I am merely interested in debating the issue. I apologise for the disclaimer, but one has to be careful on UF, an argument can be suicide here.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:58 am
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ndemeterModerator
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Coal wrote:
The real question seems to be more related to the fact that he was going to break the forum rules and launch an ARG off the back of his 'front' (no pun intended).


And that seems to be also in the center of the argument. While everyone wishes to argue the "originality" of the act they all seem to get temporary amnesia when it comes to the ToS. All attempts so far have been less about "oops! I didn't know any better" and more about "hey, I just wanted to cash in the popularity of uF and damn the rules".

Coal wrote:
I am not looking for argument, I mean no offence. I am merely interested in debating the issue. I apologise for the disclaimer, but one has to be careful on UF, an argument can be suicide here.


This is not an argument, it's a polite discussion. I don't remember anyone getting punished in here for speaking their minds in a reasonable manner. I don't agree with several people and I let them know my personal thoughts on the subjects as they are letting me know too. As far as the mods go, we are all volunteers that are here to help people (and play along side everyone too!), not bite their heads off. I only play Cthulu on TV, I swear! Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:19 am
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konamouse
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 		Just my 2 cents about the TINAG.

TINAG is a rule for the characters, not the players. We know it's a GAME (well, we should know, so we don't call REAL police to report crimes). But the characters with whom we interact aren't suppose to know they are in a game. To them, this is real life.

Since we use uF to discuss the GAME, the characters should not be in here and should not refer to uF because in their version of RL, uF should not exist. If they knew of uF then why wouldn't they read it and find out that their lives are just a GAME. To avoid that paradox, uF is OOG and thus not part of the universe that the characters inhabit.

PMs often follow the game thread(s) but find ways outside of uF to solve problems that the players may be encountering - without posting within their own threads. Just ask labfly. Players in Sammeeeees had an issue that we were discussing in the thread. Within the context of the story one of the characters steered us towards a solution. And she did this without once coming into our chat room either (she never slept either, but that's a whole nother story).

Martin inhabiting uF is not appropriate for the ToS. Steve found that out and has removed the issue. Lesson learned and thank you for coming clean and stopping before it was too late.

Thank you for this interesting topic.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:46 am
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krystyn
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Coal wrote:
If the 'character' exists on the UF forums and people believe it to be a 'real' person and never find out that it is a front...then no harm done, on the internet people can be whoever they like.

Here's the problem:

Ultimately, and especially in this specific environment of Unfiction, it weakens the narrative.

People come to this place to immerse themselves in a good yarn told across multiple platforms. Many of these platforms are well-suited to the idea of playing with the boundaries of reality.

It was fun for me to answer a payphone and talk to a broken AI and sing to her, and then drive home afterwards and look up at the sky and suddenly feel the enormousness of the universe and what was 'going' to happen to Earth in approximately 550 years. I don't have a problem with immersion, and I love a good story. I love characters that are fully-realized, and I like when I feel that little frisson of excitement when I can see that shimmer and blur of where the game world is weaving itself in and out of my everyday life.

The whole world becomes a gigantic game board, and I have choices and I feel a sense of wonder and I am seeking out others who have shared this experience in some way, so that we may all move forward together.

Here at the Unforums, my expectation is that my fellow community members are people who also do not know what's coming next. They are truly sharing my wonder and speculation, they are NOT Puppetmasters playing their own game because their design is not strong enough to allow the community to thrive and succeed on their own within the game world.

When the narrative is weakened like this, when a Puppetmaster steps outside of the game boundaries and is convinced that the game can only be played by playing it herself in some way, it is either the thing that kills the game, or one of the truest signs that the game design itself is deeply flawed, and it has now become almost a sure thing that the ARG will implode.

It is not only We, The Players, that expect to trust the Puppetmasters who have created cross-media narratives for our edification. The Puppetmasters need to trust US -- that we are willing, we are capable. That this apparent *need* to work from the inside is simply a fear on the Puppetmaster's part, or an easy crutch in place of strong design.

So, back in the day, during the Beast, there were characters/entities referred to as Dalangs (by implication of a password puzzle) - Indonesian puppeteers. And I suppose that's the inspiration for referring to the people that make/run ARGs as 'Puppetmasters.'

But see, the Dalangs are not holding strings that connect to the players' limbs - yours or mine. Or even to the limbs of 'created' sockpuppet players (during the Beast, the creators took special care to stay out of the player space, so this was not an issue). The Dalangs are maneuvering the narrative itself, shaping it, working it, weaving it, trusting it to hold on its own.

They are not, in other words, telling the story from the stage, and then running to the audience and clapping with delight at the words. The feedback loop would be shattered.

Shattered. Especially here, with the guidelines that are currently in place.

Puppetmasters who feel their trust in the players slipping need to step back and look at their own game, again. They need to tighten their narrative, explore the options of conflict between characters, make puzzles easier or harder, use a different background color on a website, make a geocache, use a spellchecker, or see the campaign through to its end instead of simply walking away.

Trust us, the players. As temporary passengers in the game world, there is incredible potential for wonder and community in our numbers. To step in and sit amongst us means that we've all stopped really playing.

See also: Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:40 pm
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imbriModerator
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imbri wrote:
(In regard to people having fronts)
There's nothing altogether wrong with that. It's just that nobody likes it.

Coal wrote:
That is your opinion, not fact.

Of course. For the most part, everything that I write on unfiction is nothing more than my opinion. I didn't realize I needed to clarify that. Additionally, words like "nobody" imply that it is nothing more than a trumped up statement to support an opinion. Plus, as everyone knows, I would never use such language and am always clear in my intent. You can ask anybody. They all know. Wink

Coal wrote:
Coal is not my real name, so is that immoral of me? A name on a forum can be the basis of a persona. Martin/Steve seem to be very similar people if you ask me, so does it matter who he really is? The real question seems to be more related to the fact that he was going to break the forum rules and launch an ARG off the back of his 'front' (no pun intended).


Exactly, as I have posted somewhere a few posts back, there is a difference between characters and personas. The difference between Coal and Martin is that, well, Coal is a persona and Martin is a character. And, unlike Steve, you are not using the relationships that you develop here under Coal to flesh out a fictional story.

Coal wrote:
I am not looking for argument, I mean no offence. I am merely interested in debating the issue. I apologise for the disclaimer, but one has to be careful on UF, an argument can be suicide here.

I'm sorry that you feel that you need to make a disclaimer or that you've lost your trust in our ability to have a discussion. I can't speak for others round these parts, but I quite enjoy discussions and especially enjoy them when there are differing view points. If I was only interested in people that reflected my point of view, I'd just use a mirror.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:21 pm
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Coal
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imbri wrote:

Coal wrote:
I am not looking for argument, I mean no offence. I am merely interested in debating the issue. I apologise for the disclaimer, but one has to be careful on UF, an argument can be suicide here.

I'm sorry that you feel that you need to make a disclaimer or that you've lost your trust in our ability to have a discussion.


It's just sometimes people on the internet like to make things personal, and the way I write can be quite abrasive.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:27 pm
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