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ARGFest 2010!
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xnbomb
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Joined: 13 Oct 2003
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thebruce wrote:
I will of course attend an argfest wherever it is, but this "US-only" kind of sentimentality is a little bothersome... I'd fly to UK for an ARGfest in a second. I've flown to a number of US argfest already. I got my passport in time for this year. Seriously, wherever the location is, if there is enough time for people to attend, then unless $ is VERY short to come by, it shouldn't be an issue.

It's not really a question of sentiment, it's actually a (set of) business issue(s). The first thing you have to recognize (and by you, I mean everyone who is thinking of submitting a proposal) is that by the time an ARGFest ends, a sizable amount of money is owed by someone to someone else for services rendered (historically, this has been Unfiction Inc. to a hotel venue, and that's unlikely to change). The next thing you have to come to grips with is what the consequences would be if the conference does not generate enough revenue to pay that tab, and how a lot of the planning process is about minimizing the chance of that happening.

Once you start viewing things in that light, it's easier to see why a non-US venue is a bigger hill to climb. Off the top of my head, I can think of three issues that add to the already significant uncertainty and risk associated with putting on an ARGFest when you take it out of the United States:
  • Attendance - imbri has already outlined the way a lack of passports could potentially represent a barrier to participation for a large proportion of ARGFest's core audience. Think of planning ARGFest like designing a game, where you want as many participants as possible: Do you want to voluntarily include barriers to participation? (Now, the counter-argument in Toronto's case, is something like: But all these people who are in the area will come if we have it there. A survey that elicits a positive response from those people as part of a proposal would help to convince that this is more than a conjecture, and could quantify this.)

  • Taxation Issues - As someone who has spent too large a proportion of his life sorting out international taxation issues on an individual basis, let me begin by stating that it was no fun, and I suspect it will be just about the same for a corporation. Unfiction Inc. files and pays taxes to the State of Oregon and the IRS. I think I can state unequivocally just how unappealing (and potentially expensive, if professional advice is required) it would be to make that situation more complex. (Take Toronto, for example: If ARGFest conducts business activities there [by selling on-site admissions, t-shirts etc.] does it need to collect GST [or soon HST I suppose, hmm] and file a corresponding return with Revenue Canada? By having ARGFest in Toronto, would Unfiction Inc. be exposing itself to income tax liability in Canada? Before you dismiss this idea, consider the following: I have a Canadian friend in precisely the opposite situation ... his Canadian business sells product to individuals in the United States, and the IRS has been steadfast and resourceful in their efforts to tax his enterprise on its income. I should mention that the US-Canada tax treaties are basically symmetrical in most regards.)

  • Currency Issues - Adding a fluctuating exchange rate to the equation just adds to the uncertainty associated with ARGFest's bottom line. Unfiction Inc. has accounts in $USD. Any venue we deal with in a country other than the United States is going to do business in their local currency. Right off the bat, there is a built-in exchange cost to reconcile that (for example, the cheapest exchange you can find from $USD to $CAD [unless you are dealing in much larger volumes than we are talking about] is about 1.5% above the median market rate ... this is how people who do foreign exchange make money and protect themselves against loss). But the bigger issue is the fluctuations: Suppose we agree to a price with a venue in a currency other than $USD. The true cost to Unfiction Inc. is not set until the actual exchange occurs. Historically, the pricing and contract is set sometime before the conference, and payment in full occurs once the services are rendered. In between, anything can happen ... the rate can move in our favor, or to our detriment, and this is entirely out of our control. We're likely talking a few percent here, but once you start gathering the data for proposals, you'll see that a few percent of the kind of bills we pay at the end of ARGFest is not exactly pocket change.
thebruce wrote:
But I'm still rooting for TO. Rock On

I'm a big fan of the idea of a Toronto ARGFest too. I think Toronto is basically a perfect venue for ARGFest, except for the fact that it happens to be in Canada (and what that means in terms of the issues outlined above). From the point of the view of the Directing Committee, part of the decision will be based on the fact that the bottom line is literally the bottom line. We depend on maximizing attendance and minimizing costs to make it possible to keep having ARGFests. As it is, we get a lot of feedback that ARGFest is too expensive, and presumably some people make their (non-)attendance decision on that basis. Requiring a significant proportion of our attendees to get a passport, pay exchange costs, cover the roaming / long-distance (and heaven help them, the international data) fees on their cell phones, and pay the cost of landing at YYZ (I know, there are alternatives, and believe me I've tried them all ... except Porter, which I intend to try soon ... but assuming your average attendee coming from a great distance wants to travel via Pearson is realistic) adds to what it costs an average attendee to attend. What is going to be required here is a proposal with figures that suggest that Toronto would be cost and attendance competitive with alternatives.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:54 pm
Last edited by xnbomb on Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gupfee
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Joined: 22 Sep 2002
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Location: Massachusetts
Quote:
Requiring a significant proportion of our attendees to get a passport, pay exchange costs, cover the roaming / long-distance (and heaven help them, the international data) fees on their cell phones,


My emphasis above. xnbomb could easily have made this point a bullet item above. My understanding from talking to people from Canada is that your data/cell charges are astronomical, and that it's hard for US travelers to get a fair roaming rate. Someone correct me if I'm wrong/provide back-up data.

I'd say given the wired-in nature of our community, that might be a deal-killer right there.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:21 pm
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Agent Lex
Entrenched


Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 1188
Location: No longer London, still in England
Gupfee wrote:
Quote:
Requiring a significant proportion of our attendees to get a passport, pay exchange costs, cover the roaming / long-distance (and heaven help them, the international data) fees on their cell phones,


My emphasis above. xnbomb could easily have made this point a bullet item above. My understanding from talking to people from Canada is that your data/cell charges are astronomical, and that it's hard for US travelers to get a fair roaming rate. Someone correct me if I'm wrong/provide back-up data.

I'd say given the wired-in nature of our community, that might be a deal-killer right there.

Coming from the UK, I discovered (via Oraclle) an easy way to circumvent this. Given that the hotel has a decent wifi service, the only cost of communications would be of US-based phone calls and text messages. In which case, buying a cheapo pay as you go phone is an easy, and far cheaper, option than paying ridiculous roaming charges. This applies to the other end of the conversation as well, since with most international calls both ends are charged, while with a call to a US-based phone this isn't the case.

That said, while I'd love a London ARGfest, and I have a basic plan for a festquest, and I'd be perfectly willing to scout out hotels and locations, I understand that not only passports but flight costs would be extremely prohibitive to both the majority of potential attendees and speakers, and thus will not likely be submitting an application come August-time.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:00 pm
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Magog
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Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 138
Location: Buffalo NY area

 		How about Buffalo, NY? It is close enough to Toronto to make it nearly as accessible to those who would be traveling to Toronto, but yet allow those with out a passport to still come. There is an International Airport that has flights in and out to not only most of the country, but the world. There is not only a convention center, but many hotels in the area that will rent out space for such events. There are many hotels in the area ranging from hole-in-the-wall, to top end hotels that have all the amenities for people to stay in. There are lots of restaurants, eateries, and bars in the area for people to eat or drink at. There are clubs, theater, and a nice waterfront district for people to see when they aren't at the convention. There are also several sports teams in the area for people to visit if they choose, depending on what sports season it is. There is Football, Hockey, Baseball, and Lacrosse, as well as March Madness (Basketball) will be there in 2010 as well. I don't have hotel prices, or prices for renting out any of the possible event locations, but I'm sure that could be obtained if Buffalo is considered. Thank you to everyone who reads this!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:35 pm
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labfly
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Location: nyc or the haunted house in maine

 		and buffalo wings... (sold)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_wings
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:08 pm
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Magog
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Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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Location: Buffalo NY area
labfly wrote:
and buffalo wings... (sold)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_wings



Of course!! That's the best part! Mmmmm Chicken wings....

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:19 pm
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Oriza
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Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 1078
Location: Michigan and Florida

 		TWO proposals
it's a double whammy
Proposal #1:
DETROIT
---------
Yes, I know what you're thinking. "DETROIT? What are you, insane? Besides Detroit being the U-bend of the proverbial American toilet, Michigan's the second-worst state economic wise (second only to Louisiana, who are still recovering from Katrina)".
However, Detroit has a few benefits. It's a major city, meaning people will know where to find it fairly easily, providing you haven't flunked fifth-grade geography. It's 207.7 miles from the city's center to Toronto (according to Wolfram|Alpha), which means that those of you who live in Ontario shouldn't have *too* far to drive. Depending, of course, on where you live in Ontario.
Public transport is a bit of an issue. There's a bus that'll take you outside the city limits (by the name of SMART) for $1.50, and a bus that'll travel inside Detroit called DDOT that also costs $1.50. Driving's a hassle, since the city's usually packed to the gills with commuters. Taxis are easy to come by, however-- they're all over the place.

Proposal #2:
ANN ARBOR
---------
Ann Arbor's kind of like the nerdy kid in the detention room who was framed by the obnoxious bully. It doesn't *want* to be in Michigan. It's just a college town full of people with inflated egos but good hearts.
If you're flying in, Ann Arbor's actually about as close to the Detroit airport as Detroit itself. Plus, we've got the added benefit of being in Michigan and therefore being nice and close to Canada. Which may be a good or a bad thing.
University of Michigan has places that I think could host the keynote speakers and the other events. I don't really know how that'd work, but there's *loads* of areas that could serve as meeting places all around the city.
I'd be totally willing to help host this, and my mom has agreed to help me. Actually, she'd be thrilled to participate.
Public transport's not an issue, either. There's *loads* of buses that go around the city and through the campus for $1.25.
Anyone who's ever been to Ann Arbor should speak up-- I think it's the perfect place for ARGfest, honestly.

That being said, I think a Toronto ARGfest would work very nicely.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:21 pm
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catherwood
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee

Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 4109
Location: Silicon Valley, CA

 		Re: TWO proposals
it's a double whammy
Oriza wrote:
Proposal #2:
ANN ARBOR
---------

Plus, the Dharma Initiative has a base of operations there. ;)

PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:47 pm
Last edited by catherwood on Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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DavFlamerock
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Joined: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 937
Location: H2Oville, ME, USA

 		Re: TWO proposals
it's a double whammy
Oriza wrote:
Things

I saw what u did thar

PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:26 pm
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thebruce
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Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 6899
Location: Kitchener, Ontario

 		First, imbri, apologies - I didn't mean to come off confrontational - it just sparked a thought about comments that have been raised before about the border-crossing-o-noes-passport thing... and on the same note, I didn't mean to imply "tptb" were unfair or biased or anything, but they do hold a lot of power and sway =)
Second, I had a response to a number of comments above, but a stupid pop-under had me jumping between windows, and I reflexively closed the wrong one, losing it all. So. In a nutshell.

I understand the complexity involved with business financial aspect of the event - at least, as much as I can understand with my (very) limit experience in dealing with business event finances Smile That wasn't what I was focusing on earlier anyway, it was more towards the point of personal costs, and the nature of the event for the community, and communities. Every fest will have different faces depending on distance and costs, and a non-US fest is certainly no exception. I'm prepared to check out the proposal package and see what'll be required to create a sufficient proposal for Toronto - yeah, it might be overwhelming for me, but maybe not for someone else, and I'd definitely at the very least be interested in helping others plan (and I know others would definitely hop on board in creating a proposal and organizing).
Plus Buffalo is only about a 2 hour drive from Toronto if flying in to Toronto is a cost issue (Pearson's a pesky airport). I fly out of Buffalo to save on costs. Flying in to Buffalo and driving to Toronto would likely be cheaper as well, and carpooling would be very optimal and social.
Like I said, TO may never happen, there may not be enough interest, it may simply be unfeasible... we'll see =)

And again, I'd be up for other international fests, knowing that anything beyond US borders will drastically cut down on core community attendance, yet provide opportunity for other communities, members, or businesses to attend and offset that decline. And really, with online streaming and coverage becoming more and more accessible, people who can't be there can still feel quite connected and informed of activities and happenings (as we saw this year mostly).

And I believe it was mentioned above, but perhaps even spin-off fests related to but not officially run/sponsored by Unfiction Inc. would be better suited for non-US fests. Especially from the perspective of running a non-domestic business event.

Detroit or Buffalo sound good too - it's not the same as actually being able to host a fest on home ground, but it's close enough that I can think of a few locals who would still be much more akin to attending.


Ok, a medium-sized nutshell. I had other thoughts, but I'm just tired now... been tired ever since I got back from CC =/ bah.

Oh yeah just remembered one other thing (*groans*) - I do strongly feel that community interest is important. While the community doesn't make the final decision - it's not a vote or popularity contest to decide - interest is a huge factor in deciding a location. Both for the people who may want to organize it, and (I assume) for tptb to weigh in when deciding on a proposal. Attendance is important. A great proposal, but no interest in a location is a problem, just as lots of interest but no proposal or organizers. With the latter (the general result of the "let's do one here!" forum comments), people may decide to step up if they see a lot of interest in their city. So I say keep the suggestions coming - argfest might happen in a city we'd least expect if interest is drummed up and a local decides to create a proposal as a result. =)

but that's just one guy's opinion... Ok done now!
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:56 am
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redct
Entrenched


Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 1233
Quote:
Proposal #2:
ANN ARBOR
---------


I've been up to Ann Arbor once, it's an awesome place. A benefit of being a college town is that it opens up a lot of possibilities for FestQuesting; you've got a whole campus that you could use. Plus if we did it in the summer, there probably wouldn't be many students.


Quote:

Quote:
Requiring a significant proportion of our attendees to get a passport, pay exchange costs, cover the roaming / long-distance (and heaven help them, the international data) fees on their cell phones,

My emphasis above. xnbomb could easily have made this point a bullet item above. My understanding from talking to people from Canada is that your data/cell charges are astronomical, and that it's hard for US travelers to get a fair roaming rate. Someone correct me if I'm wrong/provide back-up data.

I'd say given the wired-in nature of our community, that might be a deal-killer right there.


That's not much of a problem since ARGFest is short. Say you'd be sticking around in Canada for 5 days; you can get 100 text messages and mobile web browsing (not to mention hotel wifi and such) for about $12 and calls @ 30¢/minute. Only catch is that your iPhone/smartphone might not work. However, it's not that bad compared to AT&T's $119 for 100MB of data on an iPhone in Canada.

What I do have more experience with, though, is prepaid here in the US. It's actually quite a good deal here if you use T-Mobile - you can get $1/day unlimited text messages and data that'll work with your iPhone or any other smartphone (that'll work on T-Mobile's network). The data is slower - about the speed of a 1G iPhone - but I'm going to bet that's a good tradeoff for $500 roaming bills
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:52 pm
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jamesi
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Joined: 25 Sep 2002
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Location: Canadia

 		Speaking from recent personal experience, the pay as you go phone was a godsend. My cellular provider was going to charge me a pro-rated $40 for five days of US data roaming, with extra charges for making/taking calls in the US. This was on top of the normal $45 I pay per month. When we got to Portland, I bought a $20 nokia that included $13 of call time, and I used it worry free. In my neck of the woods pay as you go phones aren't even close to that cheap, but maybe a larger metro center like Toronto would be different. My advice is, if you don't need the data at your fingertips, get a burner cell phone.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:14 am
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NFCNorth4
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Joined: 17 Jul 2009
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Location: Where I can root for the Packers

 		Great Lakes
Just a thought, but has there been a ARGFest in Milwaukee. If not I would put my support for that.
The airport is huge (General Mitchell was at one time in the near past the biggest airport in the US) Not that it matters or anything
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:57 pm
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cahill
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Joined: 11 Jun 2009
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Location: where the next clue is

 		austin,texas anyone? its beautiful

PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:21 pm
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NFCNorth4
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Joined: 17 Jul 2009
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Location: Where I can root for the Packers
cahill wrote:
austin,texas anyone? its beautiful
why not LA or SF
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:01 am
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