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 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
Players Changing the Story
Moderators: imbri, ndemeter
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danteIL
Unfictologist


Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1990

imbri wrote:
danteIL wrote:
Lessee.... Stu? Eddie Pope?? Elftrytub????


Devon. Sploit.. Exu...

None of those originated in a design document and all have gone on to be fairly instrumental and, even, pivotal. Stu & Eddie Pope were both born in design documents (book 1 and book 3, respectively). Elftrytub, though, was a fairly spontaneous creation along with several others.


Aww you responded seriously. It was a joke, as I was trying to identify the *least* likely candidate characters for 'pivotal' status. Smile

Going back to the original question, I'm not sure I understand the request for "examples of players reaching out through the 4th wall." To me, that suggest that players are trying to do something unusual/purposeful to change the course of a game. Instead, I see it as players just doing whatever it is that players typically do -- muddle through and act based on the information given. Sometimes those actions are unexpected from the point of view of the PMs, but players' expectations about where things are going are necessarily limited, after all. Thus, the need for flexibility in game design...players get verrrry cranky (and I know cranky) if they feel like they are being railroaded down a predetermined path. The rails should be invisible and made of changeable stuff...

PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:56 pm
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LindbergMTL
Boot


Joined: 05 Sep 2009
Posts: 16
Location: Somewhere between Pierrefonds & Vancouver

I was asked to write the synopsis of my dreams by a producer, in the context of asking for a development grant for a ARG documentary.

So, in order to illustrate how stories must sometimes be changed, or secondary characters brought forward as main characters, I came up with the idea that some player hacked the puppetmaster computer, forcing him to change the story and characters in order to preserve the integrity of the whole project.

What do you guys think about that possibility? Far fetch, too far fetch?

PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:09 pm
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imbriModerator
Entrenched


Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland

It's a bit far-fetched. More, I think it really misses the point. When puppetmasters change things it's usually because of the interaction between the players, the story, and the puppetmasters. That interaction is what makes ARGs magic.

Throwing it out there that someone hacked a computer and so they had to change things makes it more malicious than organic. And it makes it so that the change was the result not of players, but of a security failure. That sort of change could happen in virtually any industry and any entertainment field.

Perhaps it would help you to understand if you think of ARGs as improvisational music - such as jazz. The musicians have a plan, but as they play off of one another and the audience, the music sometimes morphs and changes before returning to plan. Sometimes it goes someplace else entirely. It's not because someone from the audience jumped up and stole one of the instruments. It's because of the moment and where the musician felt he could or should go.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:26 pm
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catherwood
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee

Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 4109
Location: Silicon Valley, CA

i love the jazz analogy. That's what needs to be documented, not examples of failures. Players are not supposed to be adversaries with the PMs over the path a story takes.

Quote:
So, in order to illustrate how stories must sometimes be changed, or secondary characters brought forward as main characters,...


I suppose it's the difference between wanting to tell a fixed story and wanting to build a story organically. The idea that a story "must be changed" assumes that the PM was writing it all out before consulting his partners, the audience.

We've had several ARGs which imploded with the excuse of "my brother borrowed my computer" or "a disgruntled team member deleted files". That's not fun at all.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:14 am
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LindbergMTL
Boot


Joined: 05 Sep 2009
Posts: 16
Location: Somewhere between Pierrefonds & Vancouver

The jazz improv analogy really helps. There must be a form of dialogue that takes place between the PM and players.

As for the endings, some games need to have a specific ending, such as in Perplex City it was finding the buried object, others, the ending is not determined.

All of this makes me wonder if one day we will see a movie that was first an ARG, which with the help of players, was written by the players. Characters, plot points, ending, all the crucial elements would be written by the players.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:45 pm
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imbriModerator
Entrenched


Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland

LindbergMTL wrote:
All of this makes me wonder if one day we will see a movie that was first an ARG, which with the help of players, was written by the players. Characters, plot points, ending, all the crucial elements would be written by the players.


I have no doubt that we'll see this. I've talked with people about this very idea and a television show along those lines has always been in the plans for Eldritch Errors.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:26 pm
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LindbergMTL
Boot


Joined: 05 Sep 2009
Posts: 16
Location: Somewhere between Pierrefonds & Vancouver

imbri wrote:
I have no doubt that we'll see this. I've talked with people about this very idea and a television show along those lines has always been in the plans for Eldritch Errors.


What kind of television show, do you know?

PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:33 pm
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Daeld
Unfettered


Joined: 02 May 2009
Posts: 308
Location: Australia

LindbergMTL wrote:

All of this makes me wonder if one day we will see a movie that was first an ARG, which with the help of players, was written by the players. Characters, plot points, ending, all the crucial elements would be written by the players.


Or perhaps a documentary Wink

PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:34 pm
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LindbergMTL
Boot


Joined: 05 Sep 2009
Posts: 16
Location: Somewhere between Pierrefonds & Vancouver

Daeld wrote:
LindbergMTL wrote:

All of this makes me wonder if one day we will see a movie that was first an ARG, which with the help of players, was written by the players. Characters, plot points, ending, all the crucial elements would be written by the players.


Or perhaps a documentary Wink



Well, that is what I am hoping for. And the million dollar question for us is: are we going to initiate our own ARG with a big sponsor, and then follow players with varied profiles , or should we associate ourselves with an already planed project ?

PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:54 pm
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imbriModerator
Entrenched


Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland

LindbergMTL wrote:
imbri wrote:
I have no doubt that we'll see this. I've talked with people about this very idea and a television show along those lines has always been in the plans for Eldritch Errors.


What kind of television show, do you know?


The link explains it in more detail. But the idea of Eldritch is that the players are a collective protagonist, The Sentries, and they are an integral pat of the story. They have a forum (Sentry Outpost) where they interact with the characters & story. The story is a serial and there have been three of them so far. Now, we hope to extend that into other media - such as graphic novels and television. These would look at the events that have happened and tell the story in different ways which includes telling the story of the Sentries. So, everything that the players have done and the actions that they have taken have effected and changed the story universe.

Quote:
All of this makes me wonder if one day we will see a movie that was first an ARG, which with the help of players, was written by the players. Characters, plot points, ending, all the crucial elements would be written by the players.


So, the idea isn't exactly as you have wondered. We maintain creative control, but the players have had an incredible amount of influence on the story. They have made and changed plot points and characters and other elements. It is a very collaborative sort of process where the players collaborate through their play and exploration.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:15 pm
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labfly
Unfettered


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 717
Location: nyc or the haunted house in maine

and Sammeeeees was optioned for a tv show about a month after the part one wrapped & continues to be pitched for a tv project. its been developed and re-developed, but it is all about the journey of the Sammeeeees. Sammeeeees are not only fictional characters in my storyworld, they're all of those who played as well. the players stepped into the fiction the minute they phoned Mister Alan Johnson. Smile
_________________
r u a sammeeeee? yep.
resident of Snow Town
(friend of Peeps & Peg)


PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:56 pm
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LindbergMTL
Boot


Joined: 05 Sep 2009
Posts: 16
Location: Somewhere between Pierrefonds & Vancouver

labfly wrote:
and Sammeeeees was optioned for a tv show about a month after the part one wrapped & continues to be pitched for a tv project. its been developed and re-developed, but it is all about the journey of the Sammeeeees. Sammeeeees are not only fictional characters in my storyworld, they're all of those who played as well. the players stepped into the fiction the minute they phoned Mister Alan Johnson. Smile


How long has it been running? Is there an ending in view? Why is it not being done as a TV show?

PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:12 pm
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labfly
Unfettered


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 717
Location: nyc or the haunted house in maine

LindbergMTL wrote:

How long has it been running? Is there an ending in view? Why is it not being done as a TV show?


Sammeeeees & Samm II args both concluded, but i would still love to explore the storyworld and characters on other platforms.

the tv show... who knows? i may have been going around a little early with the project. many execs didn't know about the genre. the landscape is quite different now, maybe Sammeeeees will find a place/network very soon.
_________________
r u a sammeeeee? yep.
resident of Snow Town
(friend of Peeps & Peg)


PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:56 pm
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notgordian
Unfictologist


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 1383
Location: Philly

Since we're talking about movie/ARGs, I think it's also worth mentioning Lance Weiler's project, HIM. To shamelessly lift from my writeup on the project,

Quote:
The thought-provoking horror story will be a film at its core, but will fuse together elements of gaming, live events, serialized shorts, and graphic novel content taking place around the world and in your own living room. While the rules of the universe are established, Weiler has left considerable room in the story for what he describes as "controlled spontaneity": the rules of the universe are set up, but the ripples from audience participation can have significant effects on the final product.


As of February, A Scanner Darkly's Tommy Pallotta was slated to produce it and Weiler won the top prize at CineMart, so this project is likely to happen...

PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:23 am
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konamouse
Official uF Dietitian


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 8010
Location: My own alternate reality

LindbergMTL wrote:
How long has it been running? Is there an ending in view? Why is it not being done as a TV show?


My signature has links to both Sammeeeee's "Story So Far" threads.
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r u a Sammeeeee? I am Forever!


PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:41 am
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