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[joebrent]

http://www.imdb.com/StudioBrief/#1

[Azathoth666]

Wow... Revolutions kills everything in it's path with minimum advertising... not too shabby at all!

What I've been seeing here is a lot more advertising now that the movie has been showing for a while... I think Warner Brothers were counting on this one being a "sleeper hit" and they just totally buggered it up.

Green_Knight... I'll apologise on behalf of everyone who ridiculed your post: reading it was just like reading a bunch of unqualified spec, I couldn't see anything really to back it up. Your second post does clarify a few things you meant but...

The Architect treats everything as variables in an equation, which means his world-view is skewed in that way. Neo and Trin are both born in the matrix, so it is possible that the matrix just uploaded the most recent one data to Neo when he was born, but Statistically it is just as likely that Neo is a product of chance.

I'm not so sure we can separate Neo from Mr Anderson and Trin from... Trin. This goes back to the "digital projection of our mentals selves" thing in M1. We know that the matrix can overwrite bits of peoples minds (Smith/Bane), but bottom line is that Neo and Mr Anderson are the same person, just looking at things through completely shifted paradigms.

Same goes for Trin.

The Merovingian can't be the offspring of a previous One... He's a program just like the Oracle, and has obviously been around just as long. I'd be more inclined to compare Merv to the Architect...

I think in the interest of keeping this discussion on an intellectual level we all need to justify what we say here. The problem that XtraVa and I had with your spec is that it just read as completely unqualified.

No harm, No foul?

[Ahriman]

[green_knight]

You're the man Azathoth.

Thanks, I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post, and to give me reasons why you disagree. Its great, and leads to discussion, rather than arguments.

You have valid points, and popular ones too. Always a good sign when smart people who love something can agree on it. I'm just trying to find a new general theory of the matrix for myself. On another note, The MWAM , although its what lots of people wanted, isn't justified to me. I think that one thing the Wach bros tried to do was make their universe as real as possible, which meant that Neo couldn't fly in the real world, only in the matrix. But I do like the theory that touching the source somehow adapted his mind, or programming (depending on your view) to be able to see machines with his inner sight.

In our world, its possible to interface with machines, as neo did, and in a computer world, its possible to do anything. As far as interfacing with machines in the real world, it was recent news that in a revolutionary experiment, monkeys were hooked up to robotic arms via fiber optic cable running directly to their brains. The monkeys were trained on a joystick to move the robotic arms first, then they took the joysticks away and the monkeys remembered how to control the robotic arms, the way they would their own. Its a great article on MSN news, showing how compatible we really are with computers.

So, the idea of Neo and the One being either separate entities (in the real world we don't have scientifically verified proof of bi-location) seems possible to me. Mainly because he wasn't jacked in, and still existed in the Matrix. In the real world, that's not possible. Although an argument could be made that he learned how to communicate with the machines through the equivalent of a wireless uplink. Could go either way, both seem good to me. But it wasn't magic. In the "real" world of Zion, they have the same rules we do. Not saying that magic can't possibly exist, just that no one has ever been able to prove diddly about it in objective scientific experiments. Unless you want to talk about quantum physics, and that's a horse of a different color. For that, see the upcoming Michael Crichton film "Timeline", if its true to the book, his explanations of how quantum physics works in laymans terms will blow people away.

Anyway, I'm rambling. But I do want to address the Merovingian thing. Your idea of him having a lineage to the architect sounds interesting, and very plausible. I just go from the theory that the ONE program (yes I'm sticking with it!) that inhabits Neo is capable of creating life, just like the programs of Rama and Kamala were able to create Seti. And since there have been 5 previous Ones, I consider the connection a possibility, though I will admit that I don't have crap to base my Trinity theory on, other than the architect saying that previous Ones all had to make the same choice. Pretty flimsy, but its just one direction you could go.

You were right though, I didn't explain myself enough in my first post, so it probably just seemed like I didn't have any idea what I was talking about. I love everything Matrix, and have been enjoying trying to solve the puzzles for years. Just wanted to try a new idea is all. I'll do a better job of explaining myself in the future.

Once again, I appreciate your thoughts, and taking time out of your day to respond to me. Adios!

[colin]

ok... something got away from me ; what is the source?

Also, I gave up on trying to explain Neo's real world powers and just took it as mythology/fantasy. Like how how they can fight in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, no explaination in science, they just can. I think it fits with what the W.B's are influenced by, and what they draw on.

[Omnie]

[Azathoth666]

I think I can field that one though Omnie... All the machine AIs (like the Sentinels) are connected (wirelessly, whatever) to the Source/Mainframe. This is how Agents in the Matrix can skitch the sentinels on the source of a broadcast (M1, when the Agents sick the Sentinels on the Nebuchanezzer after Neo & Trin bust Merpheous out).

Bit of basic computing theory, and it makes sense that the Sentinels are thin-client machines: the bulk of the Sentinel AI Code sits on a server somewhere, with only a little bit of code (I/O, basic functions) sitting inside the Sentinel itself. Thats how I'd do it, if I was making millions of these things, all the same. So all Neo has to do is FUBAR the connection between a Sentinel and the Mainframe, and that Sentinel is stuffed, it can't crunch the numebrs any more. Which I guess could explain the Sentinel-going-through-Neo phenomenon: it's just the last transmission the Sentinel sends. Still don't know how Trin sees it and grabs Neo and says "Gotcha" though.

Neo never actually goes to the Source... Deus Ex Machina is just another machine, or a machine construct made up of little machines. That has a really cool voice capable of pulverising concrete. However, Neo does talk to the Architect, who is like a compiler program for the Matrix. I'm happy to accept that the Architect is half as tricksy as the Oracle and Neo left that room slightly altered.

Although, everyone born in the Matrix is just that: Inherently connected to the Machine. Neo could just be a statistical outlier who can see these connections irrespective of whether he's plugged in or not.

Green_knight: don't mention it. This is, after all a forum. Look it up in a dictionary: all about open sharing of ideas and discussion. If you hadn't backed up that first post with the second one, I would've just thought you were some kook, but the second post proved you were happy to bounce ideas around, which really, is all we're doing here.

[Omnie]

Nice...I like. I'll take your word on the concept that there is a logical programming explanation for having all the programs and AI connected to a central mainframe. My knowledge of programming extends to some BASIC and the brilliant ability to make my graphing calculator display any line of Pascal's triangle (that's my greatest programming accomplishment, hee).

So...Neo sees the code that's being passed between the source and the machines. I suppose that's why he sees Smith inside Bane? Because Smith, who must reside somewhere in the machine mainframe (because there isn't anywhere else that he could reside, right?), is controlling Bane's body... that would be why Neo-vision Bane looks like Smith, while everything else that Neo sees just looks like a golden version of itself...that was really obvious, actually, never mind. You know, this actually starts to make sense. Neo's mind is connected to the Source because his mind has been altered by certain programming thingies...the Oneness is a program that represents...how did Archy put it?...the eventuality of the anomaly. I'm not saying that Neo is a program, just that certain parts of him are... I mean, you can't really argue that Neo is entirely human. There is direct film evidence against it: Archy said, "your predecessors were, by design, based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation" intended to create a profound connection with the species. It scares me that I just quoted that from memory, but I didn't feel like looking it up... Anyway, what I was saying was that Neo's Oneness has a connection to the Source. Oh, that'd be why the Oracle said that the power of the One extends beyond the Matrix, right? If Neo can see the code in the Matrix, then why wouldn't he be able to see the code between machines and the mainframe? Once he's been in the mainframe, of course, which he hadn't been before he went into the Architect's room. This is exciting, there's actually a logical explanation for his powers! Azathoth, I heart you!

green_knight, you make some interesting points...one thing I'd argue, though, is that Trinity had no counterpoint in the previous versions of the Matrix. She's a new variable in the equations, me thinks. I'll try to prove that if you want to debate it, but there's really something else that I should be doing. Er, should have been doing for the last half hour or so, actually...ugh. I would like college a lot more if it didn't involve actual work...

[Darkshadow]

[Azathoth666]

Flashbacks to Monty Burns' army of winged monkies...

"Fly my pretties!"...

[EDIT} and a big congrats everyone!!! I just noticed that this thread has been viewed more times than the Guide!!!

Hee!

[Dasein]

[Azathoth666]

Omnie and those who are interested: the explanation I owe of thin-client computing and why they'd use it for Sentinals.

In networked environments, you can have a fat client or a thin client. A fat client is where the bulk of the program is stored on the client: the client (be it a PC, PDA or Sentinal) does all it's input/output, processes the data itself, acts accordingly on the results, and passes any necessary communications back to the server.

A thin client is just the opposite: most of the program is stored on the server, and only I/O functions and some very limited system operations are stored on the PC/PDA/Sentinal. In this example, the client will take input, pass the data back to the server for processing, recieve results and instructions back from the server and carry them out.

Now conversely, where you have a fat client, you have a thin server and little strain on communications media. So this is cool if you have few clients, or lots of dissimilar clients and / or limited server capacity or sommunications ability.

Where you have a thin client, you necessarily have a fat server and big demands on your communications. If you have lots or server capacity and no real limits on your comms, this is scalable for LOTS of devices, especially if all the devices are all the same.

The big advantage in thin-client computing where you are dealing with millions of Sentinals (similar devices) is that when the machines figure out ways of making the Sentinal control code more efficient, they don't have to reall every Sentinal and reload them: all they do is change the code on their server: the code which every Sentinal necessarily accesses.

End of lecture.

[Omnie]

Thanks...that's very helpful. The terminology is hilarious, though. A question - you say that, with "fat clients," the bulk of the code resides in the client. Meaning that a portion of the code is stored on the server? There's a reason I ask... I agree that the sentinels are all controlled through a central server, but the Neo-sees-code-communication theory really makes a lot more sense if his One code is also partially stored on the mainframe. That's the only way he'd have a connection to the Source, isn't it? Actually...if the One code is partially stored on the mainframe, why didn't he have the connection before he went to Archy's room? Could his touching the Source have activated some bit of code or upgraded it? Ugh, I hate fuzzy theories, this was all looking so nicely concrete...

Also, the Agents and other non-exile program dudes have code at least partially stored on the server, right?

One more question - is there a good programming explanation for "The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program"? I've never really understood that intuitively, and it sounds like it may be the lack of programming knowledge again...

(As a random side-note about the Matrix movies... I was sitting in a class today, listening to a lecture about social stratification theories... the TA was describing Marx's social theory, saying that Marx believed that finances were all that really mattered. If you believe in all the ideals spouted by society about mobility and that kind of thing, then you've already lost the game. So, while listening to this, I found myself writing down something like, "everything else is an illusion, created by those with power to control those without." So then I zoned out for about five minutes trying to connect social stratification theories with Merv's theory about power. I don't know whether I'm crazy, or the Matrix really does have connections with just about everything...)

[Azathoth666]

True: most fat clients will have some code on the server relating to them, even if it's only a log file or backup procedures. Programs like Seraph and the Oracle (etc) would be stored 100% on the Matrix servers: they have no extension into the real world, but Smith is an exception to the rule vis a vis Bane.

While people are plugged into the matrix, a bit of them would be stored on the servers (like control algorithms). When someone unplugs from the Matrix, Id suggest that there is still a bit of that person stored in the Matrix: memories other people have of the unplugged person etc. In Neo's case, it's Smith remembering him and Smith reaches a critical mass by the end of the movie. Seeing as there's a bit of Smith code in Bane, Neo sees the Smith code.

I reckon Neo did have the connection to the matrix from the real world from the beginning: he just didn't know about it until after he saw the Architect. Only after that did he understand his choice to save Trinity, so he could see through it and move on. Please don't ask me about the whole "not being able to see past the choices we don't understand" thing, coz that still bakes my noodle.

EL Kabong answers your question on the function of the One over here by posting this link to Metaphilm about the Godel Sentance. It's a little deep, but is a very satisfactory answer.

[Omnie]