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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: MetaCortechs » MetaCortechs: General/Updates
[OFFTOPIC] Revolutions [SPOILERS]
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Ahriman
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Joined: 27 Oct 2003
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Omnie wrote:


Anyway, in the scene you mention, Seraph can leave because the Oracle doesn't need him to protect her. She fully intends to let Smith take her over as part of her master plan for defeating him by giving him false visions or whatever it was that she did (I need to go see this movie again).


Not false visions. She let Smith take her over in the knowledge that she would not be totally absorbed and would retain *juuuuust* enough control to make Smith say what he said (and got so upset about) to give Neo the clue that he should let Smith take him over. That's why Neo so readily gives in - he lets Smith take him over, then destroys the whole Smithulation of the Matrix from within. When the Oracle speaks through Smith, Neo realises he can do this when he's inside. Brute force ain't gonno kill him, so...

Seems that people taken over by Smith can be disinfected. So that was the purpose of the One. To be a human Norton Antivirus.

PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 4:36 pm
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Insomniac
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Ahriman wrote:

Seems that people taken over by Smith can be disinfected. So that was the purpose of the One. To be a human Norton Antivirus.



I hope not I've had so many problems with it.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 4:39 pm
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Azathoth666
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 		Well, I saw it last Friday, and now is the first opportunity I've had to truly vent about it, so here is my vent. Very Happy

I couldn't help myself, and I'd read a bit of this thread before I saw the movie (most notably Yanka's contribution: big props for that one) and I can honestly say I walked out of it happy with how it ended, and satisfied with the whole shebang, and I think going in there with a big mind for some of the little drops to philosophy, religion and culture helped a lot.

Then I spent the next two days trying to explain to one of my mates why "matrix-within-a-matrix" would've sucked ass compared to the way this one ended. And I'm still explaining. Some people just don't get it...

Now, I know it's been said before, but the sound design and the soundtrack has to be one of the absolute stand-out features of this movie... I made sure we went to see it in a theatre with good sound and I'm glad I did. Un-buh-lievable.

The seige of Zion... see above. Un-buh-lievable. When that scene finished, I had to take a deep breath: I've never felt so drained from watching a movie before...that just r0x0r3d my b0X0rs. My only question in relation to the whole seige-of-zion/hammer-saves-the-day is WTF happened to Sparks? I know he's mildly annoying at the best of times, but seriously kids, everyone else on the Hammer is either blasting hell out of Sentinels or piloting their ass off, and Sparks? I'm pretty sure they threw him overboard as a decoy or something... I mean even Link gets to play with the guns...

(just had to get that off my chest somewhere...)

And I really don't know what people are whingeing about with the whole trin dying sequence... I thought that was a genuinely touching piece of cinema! Call me daggy, but I was really moved by that scene. IMHO, it was no worse than the Boromir Death scene in LoTR:FoTR.

My only wish would've been for a bit more kung-fu. Thats part of what suckered me into the Matrix in the first place... I know it's a bit superficial given the sheer amount of philosphy in here to dissect, but I love a bit of wire work, and the Matrix trilogy has some of the best. (And to the people complaining about the wire work in Reloaded, watch Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and shudduppa-your-face. Razz Wink )

Just let me clarify something though, I know theres a few interpretations out there at the mo', but how-Neo-ends-up-beathing-Smith...

I thought, because Neo is the result of an unblanced equation (cf the Architect) and Smith is the result of the equation trying to balance itself (cf the Oracle), when Smith takes Neo over the equation is balanced, solved, finished so it goes away no problem anymore? Which would be why the other Smiths explodamacate and whoever they've infected is left as they were (Sati, the Oracle, probably everyone else or at least every other program in the Matrix).

Is this what everyone else was thinking?

Definitely one for the fans though. Which is probably why it's getting bomb reviews: your average film critic don't watch Manga, isn't into doujinshi and could really care less about philosophy. Let me know if I'm wrong, but I'll bet no-one here is a professional film critic, right? But everyone here is into a bit of counter-culture (which is why we're obsessing over an ARG with tenuous matrix ties...) so most of us dig it.

Oh and just as a parting shot... when the Sentinals went into "truce" mode, and were just sitting there flexing their huge metallic claws, was anyone else reminded of a cute little puppy, or am I sicker than I thought?

Laughing Cool
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 8:53 pm
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joebrent
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 		I read a review that compared the Zion battle to a Pollack painting. How right on is that? Composition be damned, just fill every inch of that Imax screen with squiddies and shooty shells!

PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 9:55 pm
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BoogedyBoo
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Azathoth666 wrote:

Oh and just as a parting shot... when the Sentinals went into "truce" mode, and were just sitting there flexing their huge metallic claws, was anyone else reminded of a cute little puppy, or am I sicker than I thought?
Laughing Cool


Nope. I got the same feeling too. the squiddies don't look so bad when they aren't tearing into people.

PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 10:01 pm
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heatha
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BoogedyBoo wrote:
Azathoth666 wrote:

Oh and just as a parting shot... when the Sentinals went into "truce" mode, and were just sitting there flexing their huge metallic claws, was anyone else reminded of a cute little puppy, or am I sicker than I thought?
Laughing Cool


Nope. I got the same feeling too. the squiddies don't look so bad when they aren't tearing into people.



Me three. Kind of reminded me of the Pixar lamp.



With Seraph protecting the girl - I wondered if it was meant to refer to a transition of power? But it still doesn't explain why he'd go with Trinity and Morpheus (to me, anyways).

PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 10:21 pm
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eudaemon
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Quote:
My only question in relation to the whole seige-of-zion/hammer-saves-the-day is WTF happened to Sparks? I know he's mildly annoying at the best of times, but seriously kids, everyone else on the Hammer is either blasting hell out of Sentinels or piloting their ass off, and Sparks? I'm pretty sure they threw him overboard as a decoy or something... I mean even Link gets to play with the guns...


Yes I was pretty sure Roland did just that... Very Happy Sparks was helluva annoying in "Enter The Matrix" and does it again in his two lines in this movie ("...You can clean the windshield while you're at it.") I had hoped for more action from Ghost and Niobe though, pity.

I saw quite a bit of humor in this movie as well. My favorite part? When Lock dissed Morpheus in front of the council ("Because he's the one who believes in miracles...") Followed by silence and that look from Morpheus. That was one great line during a time like the siege!

Btw, I also liked how they wrote in the part on Merovingian forcing the Oracle to change her shell to explain the change in casting. Thought that fit in really well with the story conveniently for them.

PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 11:03 pm
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Omnie
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 		Oh, man...ok, I just came back from watching this movie again, and I've completely and totally changed my mind. That movie rocked! Like, a lot! With lots and lots of rocks inside it, and little bits flying out because it can't contain so many rocks...and even then, that doesn't come close to describing the extent to which it rocked. Mr. Green

I should add at this point that today was extreme Matrix day for me...we watched M1, M2, and the SR anime shorts before going to see Rev. again. So that may have had something to do with that, just because there are so many interconnections.

The problem the first time had been preconceptions, and that's the same problem that the other slightly obsessive Matrix fans are having right now...we all knew, subconsciously or not, how we expected this movie to end...unfortunately for me, I expected it to end exactly the way it did, but I hoped that it would somehow surprise me. When it didn't, plotwise or philosophy-wise, I felt rather empty because that was what I had set my biggest hopes on: a large degree of mind-blowing-ness. So I got frustrated...but I basically ruined it for myself. Yes, this movie logically follows the path set for it by Reloaded and M1. Honestly, if it had done anything else, that would not have been right. So...yeah.

Now, this second time, I knew how it was going to end, and I watched the movie on its own basis, without preconceived notions and expectations. And it rocked! I believe I may have mentioned that already. There is one complaint that I had the first time that is still valid now, and that's the explanation for Neo's powers...but even that makes sense to me now. Once you accept that "The power of the One extends beyond [the Matrix]" and that Neo's touching the source opened up that power within him to its fullest extent...from there, everything follows logically. He can only see machines, nothing else, and he sees those because they are controlled by programs. This is why his vision looks like golden code...he's seeing the code in each machine. It's awesome...it just kinda stinks that we have to accept the first shaky presumption as given to follow the rest of it. Does anyone have a way of explaining the One-source thing in a way that would make sense?

Like I said, that's the only thing that really bothered me this time around. The Trinity death scene is not as bad as I'd first thought at all...see, it makes a difference when you're seeing it with an audience that communally gasps in horror when seeing those pipes sticking out of her. I love my local theater...I should have gone to see it there the first time. Anyway...yeah, it's a bit long, but I really had some tears in my eyes (ok, ok, I did the first time too, but that's not the point!). And, oh, the Superbrawl! How perfect was that music?!?! That was the coolest sequence I've ever seen in anything. Beautiful and emotional and tense...because, this time, in contrast to the fights in Reloaded and, to some extent, the ones in M1 as well, you really had no idea how it was going to turn out. I mean, if they had killed Trinity, surely they would have no problem with killing Neo as well... well, yes, I knew what was going to happen this time (and I pretty much knew it the first time too), but still...just absolutely amazing. That one actually literally rocked...lots and lots of rocks flying around, as well as water. Lots of water. Very Happy

Ok, I think I'll stop raving now. My point is basically that, if you've seen it once, go see it again. If you're on this board, chances are you had as many preconceptions as I did...go see it again without those preconceptions, and watch how your opinion changes. Amazing. I have a prediction...no matter how much this movie bombs in the box office, it will ensure that the series goes down in history, picking up more and more fans as it does so. Also, it would be really exciting if it actually picks up box office steam as people who see it again report how friggin awesome it is, but I doubt that'll happen...wow. I think I had tears in my eyes from the Trinity death scene right up until the end. Seriously. *takes deep breath*

PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 11:59 pm
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Azathoth666
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 		See!!! It's a great movie!!! Especially if you watch it soon after Reloaded, becuase aren't they just one movie cut in half for profits' sake anyway?

Go you Wachowski Brothers! And here's something I forgot in my previous vent... Go Captain Mifune!!! He's the toughest man ever to have claimed right to toughness in tough city where tough is the sherriff. That was totally mind-boggling.

The WBs just completely made a hero out of someone who was previously like a walk-on role... and they kicked-ass with it!!!

I wanna be like Mifune when I grow up... Very Happy

But Omnie, everyone... I'd read Neo's "powers" in the real world differently: the way I see it, Neo can only see things which are in some way connected to the Matrix: 01, obviously... The power plant and to a lesser degree the fields, the Sentinels (obviously 802.11g or GPRS Wink ) and notably, Bane/Smith. Bane/Smith is the only "human" Neo can see: he can't see Trin, just the Smith in Banes' shell (oooh, now we're getting all Ghost in the Shell again!!!)

I can justify this to myself by thinking "OK, Neo was born in the Matrix, connected. His mind is the product of an unbalanced blahblahblah, so his mind is special... so hey, why not be able to see things connected to the Matrix when in the real world?"

And that's the big arguement I'm using against my "pro-MWAM" mates. Idiots, idiots all of them... Wink (any MWAMers present excluded of course... Very Happy )

But then again, how do you argue with someone who says "I reckon they should come back, do an M4 and say 'It was really MWAM after all'"...

Grr...
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 1:16 am
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Omnie
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Azathoth666 wrote:
But Omnie, everyone... I'd read Neo's "powers" in the real world differently: the way I see it, Neo can only see things which are in some way connected to the Matrix: 01, obviously... The power plant and to a lesser degree the fields, the Sentinels (obviously 802.11g or GPRS Wink ) and notably, Bane/Smith. Bane/Smith is the only "human" Neo can see: he can't see Trin, just the Smith in Banes' shell (oooh, now we're getting all Ghost in the Shell again!!!)

I can justify this to myself by thinking "OK, Neo was born in the Matrix, connected. His mind is the product of an unbalanced blahblahblah, so his mind is special... so hey, why not be able to see things connected to the Matrix when in the real world?"


Yeah, I entirely agree about how Neo can only see things related to the Matrix, but I don't think there's that much of a mythical quality to that - he can see the code. It's a reasonable explanation, no? Heh, I don't know about the second half of that...there's gotta be something more than just him being special, so he can see things connected to the Matrix...dunno.

On a side note, I just realized something. The fact that this movie *is* potentially predictable totally justifies all the rampant fan speculation that has been going on ever since Reloaded came out (well, long before that, too, but I have to admit that I only began participating after May 15th). I mean, if you watched M1 and Reloaded many times, watched the Animatrix, played the video game...if you did all that and tried to understand the philosophy behind it all (and you really had to follow the philosophy...I know people who wanted to make predictions based on plot alone, and they were very very wrong)...then you could predict, with a good amount of certainty, what was going to happen in the third movie. This means that all the philosophy wasn't gratuitous, it was the backbone of the trilogy. All the little hints that we found, they weren't the result of us reading way too much into a simple movie, they were actually there because they foreshadowed events in Revolutions so that the entire series stands together as a whole. And really, it would have sucked if Revolutions ended with some kind of twist that we never would have seen coming, because that would have been a cheap trick on the audience. I mean, the twist at the end of Reloaded was blatantly hinted at throughout the entire movie. If the movie had stopped right before the Architect scene, we would have predicted what Neo was about to learn pretty accurately. So if hints pointed to an ending with peace, that's what was going to happen.

Now, if you did all that, if you watched everything and analyzed it to death and then were still wrong...
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
well, I guess you just aren't as smart as I am.

Arrow *grin, duck, and run* Arrow

Mr. GreenMr. GreenMr. Green


*Stop chasing me! I'm sorry! I didn't mean it! Aaaahhhgggg....*

PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 10:45 am
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Raven
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 		just a thought...

my take on how neo defeated smith was the following.

Smith went into exile after he was beaten in M1 because, programs have two choices when they break, be deleted by returning to the source or go into exile. Smith chose to go into exile.

When smith takes over Neo he accidentaly goes to the source because neo is there anyway (with the machine god.) So the machine god takes the opportunity to delete Smith through neos body with his been inhabited by smith.

That was my take anyway!

Quote the Raven Nevermore.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 11:46 am
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Ahriman
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Raven wrote:
just a thought...

my take on how neo defeated smith was the following.

Smith went into exile after he was beaten in M1 because, programs have two choices when they break, be deleted by returning to the source or go into exile. Smith chose to go into exile.

When smith takes over Neo he accidentaly goes to the source because neo is there anyway (with the machine god.) So the machine god takes the opportunity to delete Smith through neos body with his been inhabited by smith.


The only problem with that theory is this; Smith has taken over lots of humans plugged in to the matrix; hardwired into the system. Why didn't the machines use any one of them to purge Smith? They couldn't - hence why Neo said to the Deus ex Machina, "The program Smith is beyond your control". My take (and it seems logical, really) is that when Smith absorbed Neo, just as the Oracle's knowledge passed through the whole Smithulation, so did Neo....and just as the Oracle retained some level of control over Smith (without him realising it until the end), so did Neo, and he did a HUGE version of what he did in the first movie and destroyed Smith. I'm guessing he did it properly this time, though...

This explanation accounts for why he willingly submitted himself to Smith after hearing the Oracles' words and seeing that she could exert control from within Smith.

I do like the idea of the equation balancing itself out, though. Cool idea!

PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 4:51 pm
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Omnie
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Ahriman wrote:
My take (and it seems logical, really) is that when Smith absorbed Neo, just as the Oracle's knowledge passed through the whole Smithulation, so did Neo....and just as the Oracle retained some level of control over Smith (without him realising it until the end), so did Neo, and he did a HUGE version of what he did in the first movie and destroyed Smith. I'm guessing he did it properly this time, though...

This explanation accounts for why he willingly submitted himself to Smith after hearing the Oracles' words and seeing that she could exert control from within Smith.

I do like the idea of the equation balancing itself out, though. Cool idea!


I agree with everything you just wrote. I think you could even take it further, though. Yeah, the reason Neo gave himself up is that he realized he would be able to do something once taken over, so he did to Smith what he had done in the first movie. It actually even looks the same...I checked, and the same kind of white light comes out of Smith in M1 when he's destroyed, and then you see the green bits flying out because that's the inside of Smith. Anyway, in Revolutions, when Neo went into Smith and "blew him up," their codes were finally combined. Each of them carried part of the code of the One at that point...remember "something overwritten or copied" that Smith mentions in Reloaded. So when the two of them were combined, the machines had the entire code of the One connected to the source, and that's why the Matrix was finally able to be reloaded. If this is true, it makes me wonder what would have happened if Neo had chosen the other door in the Architect's room. I don't think it would have worked...

Maybe the "system" (the Source? the Architect? who controls this type of thing?) knew that the Oracle was manipulating Neo into choosing the Trinity door, so it created Smith to force Neo to return his code to the source in whatever way it could. The Oracle says that Smith is the result of the equation trying to balance itself out. The unbalance came about in the first place because of the Oracle's meddling, when she made Neo's side of the equation too strong by having him fall in love with Trinity.

So, starting from the beginning, the Oracle makes Neo fall in love-->his love revives him and actually makes him the One (what had happened to the other Ones who weren't in love, I wonder?)-->the system saw the unbalance and "compelled" Smith to "disobey" and become a powerful exile who carries part of the One code-->Neo chooses the Trinity door as expected and does not reload the Matrix-->Smith grows ridiculously powerful, but so does Neo-->Neo finally chooses freely to merge with Smith and annihilate him.

The difference is that, unlike the previous times when the One wasn't really faced with much of a choice in the Architect's room, this time it was all Neo's idea to go to 01 and help destroy Smith. He did it voluntarily, not just because the alternative was the destruction of the human race. Actually, the alternative was the destruction of both humanity and machines...not much of an alternative, but he held all the pieces because the machines were also in danger. So he was able to ask for peace.

Wow. So the dangerous game that the Architect says the Oracle was playing was based on Neo's final choice...his ultimate sacrifice. Dangerous because she was toying with the destruction of all sentient life on the planet! But she had a good idea that Neo would do it...he had done the sacrifice thing before, in M1 to save Morpheus and in Reloaded to save Trinity. Well, granted that in Reloaded what he was sacrificing was basically the survival of the human race... but he had hope that he would be able to prevent it somehow.

Wasn't there some wonderful quote somewhere about how free will means freely choosing to do what needs to be done? I haven't the faintest idea who said that, or how the quote actually went verbatim, but I saw it mentioned in reference to these movies...heh. Meaning, not choosing to do what you want to do, because that's just being controlled by your impulses and drives, but choosing to do what really has to be done, even if unpleasant...Seems appropriate.

Did any of that make sense to anyone, or am I going crazy? It's very possible that it's the latter, and if it is, don't hesitate to tell me. Mr. Green

[Edit] Wow, that was way too long. I need sleep...

PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 5:34 pm
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Azathoth666
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 		Perfect sense to me Omnie... I'm now torn between the neo-lays-the-smack-down-on-smiths-candy-ass-from-within theory and my previous equation-balances-itself-out theory. Smile

The one thing that popped into my mind while reading that post was "hey, isn't it a cool parallel drawn between the Oracle and the Architect..."

In Reloaded, the Architect gives Neo a big "puh-lease" when he talks about the Oracle, and in Revs the Oracle does the same thing right back at him. Gorgeous. But I like how the Oracle represents the intuitive mind (is that the id or the ego... or the superego? I forget...) and the Architect represents the rational mind. Very clever.

And i likeee the conspiracy idea, I think. Kind of makes the Oracle this sinister puppetmaster figure though...
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 5:44 pm
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Omnie
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Azathoth666 wrote:
Perfect sense to me Omnie... I'm now torn between the neo-lays-the-smack-down-on-smiths-candy-ass-from-within theory and my previous equation-balances-itself-out theory. Smile


Yay, I'm not psychotic... couldn't both theories be true? That's what I was going for...Neo destroys Smith from inside AND balances the equation, thereby killing Smith and reloading the Matrix.

Also...this is probably a stupid question. But, moving aside from the big issues for a minute here, wtf was with that sentinel-like thing that passed through Neo's body on the Logos? I mean, it couldn't have physically passed through his body, but Trinity seemed to have seen it too... and, anyway, it was much smaller than a sentinel. Am I missing something obvious?

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:20 am
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