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 Forum index » Chaotic Fiction » Marble Hornets
[SPEC] Entry #29
Moderators: Giskard, JKatkina, Zarggg
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pravado
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Joined: 22 Apr 2011
Posts: 1833
Starkley wrote:
Yeah, I agree, and also, it IS possible for it to get dark that quickly...but I don't remember the exact date of #23 off the top of my head. But anyway, that's why I said possibly/assume. Even if TO can change the way time passes, it's not THAT relevant to the story so far except for the possibility that it could explain #29s impossible place in time.


Not that it's dark outside. The downstairs door to the house was opened more and blocking the light coming in so it appears darker in the house when he looks down the stairs after going through the rooms.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:56 pm
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aidansean
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Starkley wrote:
aidansean wrote:
and here are several continuity errors and retcons in the series.


What retcons/errors?


Off the top of my head, Jay runs out of the wrong door in the hotel when he escapes from Masky in the Entry #33, according to the DVD commentary Troseph had no plan for the KEY and had to fill in some gaps to make it work. And of course, in many people's opinion, the entirety of Entry #29. Arguably Seth's entire involvement is a retcon. The actor just turned up one day and then the character played a conveniently silent cameraman role whenever they needed another character (entries #20 and #22.)

PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:59 pm
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aidansean
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pravado wrote:
Starkley wrote:
Yeah, I agree, and also, it IS possible for it to get dark that quickly...but I don't remember the exact date of #23 off the top of my head. But anyway, that's why I said possibly/assume. Even if TO can change the way time passes, it's not THAT relevant to the story so far except for the possibility that it could explain #29s impossible place in time.


Not that it's dark outside. The downstairs door to the house was opened more and blocking the light coming in so it appears darker in the house when he looks down the stairs after going through the rooms.


Yep. At 4:06 (when Jay enters the basement) the corridor is pretty well lit from the right.

EDIT: Of course, this throws a spanner in the works for the time travel idea. This is the first time I noticed the light at 4:06.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:00 pm
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Drnothing1
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 		I'm still on the "non-canon" boat right now. Once again, this is very early on in season two and I think I read they planned on that being the last season. I think that they planned the murder out differently but something came up.

All the other theories we have here are based mainly on hypotheticals with very little evidence.

Time-Travel: He (maybe) can speed up time. Most will agree here because of Entry 23. Speeding up time doesn't mean he can traverse time. The faster you move, the slower things around you happen while everything else remains constant. This is in no way time-travel because travel constitutes the ability to traverse both forwards and backwards in time. At this point it seems like a certain person keeps trying to force their theory to work.

The rock: In entry 49 Alex hold the rock like any saddistic killer would- the "corner" facing down. Jay also states that he hit Bruce 4 times. The rock we see in 29 has only one, very minor, blood stain on the edge of the rock.

To me, the evidence points closer to discontinuity than multiple murders or multi-verses.
_________________
What if The Operator is really the ghost of movie critics past trying to prevent Alex from ever making his god-awful movie?

PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:57 am
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Starkley
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Quote:
I find it a bit ridiculous that we all agree he can teleport (or at least run really really fast), selectively wipe memories, move human bodies (alive or dead) from place to place, and interfere with recording devices, and yet creating/moving a bloody T-shirt is completely beyond him/it.


We agree that it can do those things because we've seen it happen/some stuff becomes ridiculous unless those powers are true. I find it hard to believe that TO just climbed up the window into Jay's hotel room, or that it jumped into the maintenance tunnel from somewhere. In fact, if TO can't teleport, a lot of the story would seem rather ridiculous...

Selectively is a strong word, unless you mean as far as time gaps go. And that could just be an effect of being near TO: if you're near it, you don't remember shit. But wiping out seven months isn't something I would call selective. Nonetheless, we've seen that contact/proximity to TO = memory loss. In like every appearance.

Interfering with recording devices is just a given. I mean, come on.

But no direct and obvious evidence of time travel, nor any direct evidence of moving objects - besides possibly this one body - 50 yards away. Even if it can do it, that doesn't mean that it did do it. It just seems like such a mundane and arbitrary act. Especially because of how cryptic a message it would be.

That's really the problem with this whole discontinuity thing. It's such mundane and trivial stuff that doesn't match up, and the guys go out of their way to make EVERYTHING different, except for the presence of the puddle, which they don't control. More rocks in different locations, not enough blood, random inexplicable shirt/rag...

It's also really hard to believe that the guys didn't notice it when they were recording...

"Okay, we need to go shoot the murder from #29 now."
"Cool, let's do it without rewatching #29 to make sure we maintain continuity."
"I think I remember something with a bloody rock and shirt"
"Nah, I don't remember a shirt"
"True, true"

But meh. I guess we'll find out when the season's up what's going on here.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:29 am
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pravado
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Starkley wrote:
Quote:
I find it a bit ridiculous that we all agree he can teleport (or at least run really really fast), selectively wipe memories, move human bodies (alive or dead) from place to place, and interfere with recording devices, and yet creating/moving a bloody T-shirt is completely beyond him/it.


We agree that it can do those things because we've seen it happen/some stuff becomes ridiculous unless those powers are true. I find it hard to believe that TO just climbed up the window into Jay's hotel room, or that it jumped into the maintenance tunnel from somewhere. In fact, if TO can't teleport, a lot of the story would seem rather ridiculous...

Selectively is a strong word, unless you mean as far as time gaps go. And that could just be an effect of being near TO: if you're near it, you don't remember shit. But wiping out seven months isn't something I would call selective. Nonetheless, we've seen that contact/proximity to TO = memory loss. In like every appearance.

Interfering with recording devices is just a given. I mean, come on.

But no direct and obvious evidence of time travel, nor any direct evidence of moving objects - besides possibly this one body - 50 yards away. Even if it can do it, that doesn't mean that it did do it. It just seems like such a mundane and arbitrary act. Especially because of how cryptic a message it would be.

That's really the problem with this whole discontinuity thing. It's such mundane and trivial stuff that doesn't match up, and the guys go out of their way to make EVERYTHING different, except for the presence of the puddle, which they don't control. More rocks in different locations, not enough blood, random inexplicable shirt/rag...

It's also really hard to believe that the guys didn't notice it when they were recording...

"Okay, we need to go shoot the murder from #29 now."
"Cool, let's do it without rewatching #29 to make sure we maintain continuity."
"I think I remember something with a bloody rock and shirt"
"Nah, I don't remember a shirt"
"True, true"

But meh. I guess we'll find out when the season's up what's going on here.



lmao

PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:41 am
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DHawk314
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 		Something else. By end of Entry #49, the rock was right at the entrance to the tunnel, in the puddle of Beard Guy's blood. By Entry #29 though, the rock's deeper in the tunnel, and the shirt that everyone's complaining about is on top of it.

To be honest though guys, all of this seems really minor. The shit's om a different position. They also leave the window to their cars open sometimes when they're not supposed to be open. I realize that's less obvious, but I doubt that this means the entirety of Entry #29 in non-canon.

My personal theory is this: the beginning of Entry #50, and all of Entry #38 is the day after Beard Guy's death. The end bit of Entry #50 where Jay steal's the tape with Brian on it is the next day: Two days after Beard Guy's death. When Jay does this, he first watches Alex drive away in his car. I think he was going back to the scene of the crime. I mean, if I murdered someone with my a rock I'd probably be thinking about it a lot, plus he was already going into Rosswood Park a lot with the chest cam. So, that's when I think it takes place. The same day as the end bit of Entry #50.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:38 am
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pravado
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DHawk314 wrote:
Something else. By end of Entry #49, the rock was right at the entrance to the tunnel, in the puddle of Beard Guy's blood. By Entry #29 though, the rock's deeper in the tunnel, and the shirt that everyone's complaining about is on top of it.

To be honest though guys, all of this seems really minor. The shit's om a different position. They also leave the window to their cars open sometimes when they're not supposed to be open. I realize that's less obvious, but I doubt that this means the entirety of Entry #29 in non-canon.

My personal theory is this: the beginning of Entry #50, and all of Entry #38 is the day after Beard Guy's death. The end bit of Entry #50 where Jay steal's the tape with Brian on it is the next day: Two days after Beard Guy's death. When Jay does this, he first watches Alex drive away in his car. I think he was going back to the scene of the crime. I mean, if I murdered someone with my a rock I'd probably be thinking about it a lot, plus he was already going into Rosswood Park a lot with the chest cam. So, that's when I think it takes place. The same day as the end bit of Entry #50.


oh wow i never thought of that

PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:59 am
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aidansean
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Starkley wrote:
Quote:
I find it a bit ridiculous that we all agree he can teleport (or at least run really really fast), selectively wipe memories, move human bodies (alive or dead) from place to place, and interfere with recording devices, and yet creating/moving a bloody T-shirt is completely beyond him/it.


We agree that it can do those things because we've seen it happen/some stuff becomes ridiculous unless those powers are true. I find it hard to believe that TO just climbed up the window into Jay's hotel room, or that it jumped into the maintenance tunnel from somewhere. In fact, if TO can't teleport, a lot of the story would seem rather ridiculous...


I agree completely.

Starkley wrote:
Selectively is a strong word, unless you mean as far as time gaps go. And that could just be an effect of being near TO: if you're near it, you don't remember shit. But wiping out seven months isn't something I would call selective. Nonetheless, we've seen that contact/proximity to TO = memory loss. In like every appearance.


No, I mean selecting which bits of the brain to interfere with for the wiping. finding where memories are "located" in the brain is an intractable, removing them even more so. Which means we're left with awesome supernatural powers as an explanation.

Starkley wrote:
Interfering with recording devices is just a given. I mean, come on.


I agree again.

Starkley wrote:
But no direct and obvious evidence of time travel, nor any direct evidence of moving objects - besides possibly this one body


Two bodies. It teleports Alex in Entry #44. Just read this sentence and see if it makes any sense" The operator can teleport a live human body, clothes and all, from one place to another without any side effects, but cannot teleport a T-shirt."

(And to be pedantic, if teleporting is instantaneous then it implicitly involves time travel, in both directions.)

Starkley wrote:
- 50 yards away. Even if it can do it, that doesn't mean that it did do it. It just seems like such a mundane and arbitrary act. Especially because of how cryptic a message it would be.


Right. My two speculations are 1) the operator kidnaps people from their beds and teleports to them places where it does its best to tell them what it wants them to do. In this case, go to this tunnel and kill someone, in which case the shirt isn't Bruce's in the first place, and it isn't a mundane and arbitrary act. (Cryptic? Yes, but would we expect anything different from the operator. It can't talk. It must work with the physical world around it. It must be great at charades.) 2) Alex came back and filmed this himself, in which case it doesn't need to be a shirt at all, it could just be a rag.

Starkley wrote:
That's really the problem with this whole discontinuity thing. It's such mundane and trivial stuff that doesn't match up, and the guys go out of their way to make EVERYTHING different, except for the presence of the puddle, which they don't control. More rocks in different locations, not enough blood, random inexplicable shirt/rag...

It's also really hard to believe that the guys didn't notice it when they were recording...

"Okay, we need to go shoot the murder from #29 now."
"Cool, let's do it without rewatching #29 to make sure we maintain continuity."
"I think I remember something with a bloody rock and shirt"
"Nah, I don't remember a shirt"
"True, true"

But meh. I guess we'll find out when the season's up what's going on here.


Uh-huh, I agree. I'm of the opinion that it's canon, so either it's a stupid continuity error, or we've got to work with the information we have at hand to come up with a workable theory. I'm just killing time until the next entry comes along with some speculation here.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:42 am
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Starkley
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DHawk314 wrote:
My personal theory is this: the beginning of Entry #50, and all of Entry #38 is the day after Beard Guy's death. The end bit of Entry #50 where Jay steal's the tape with Brian on it is the next day: Two days after Beard Guy's death. When Jay does this, he first watches Alex drive away in his car. I think he was going back to the scene of the crime. I mean, if I murdered someone with my a rock I'd probably be thinking about it a lot, plus he was already going into Rosswood Park a lot with the chest cam. So, that's when I think it takes place. The same day as the end bit of Entry #50.


I might be mixing up my timelines here, but wouldn't Jay have seen something then while he was going through the tunnel earlier in #50? He came in from the side closer to the entrance; I mean, I know TO removed all the evidence, but there should at least have been blood in the puddle; otherwise I don't know why it would be there in #29. Unless it's not ACTUALLY the next day.

Anyway, as far as the "bloody shirt is a symbol for murder" idea goes, I would have wanted to see evidence of TO doing similar things with the other attacks that Alex has committed before anything else.

EDIT: Or, Jay DID see something in the tunnel (explaining his weird sit down if it's not him resting after running so much). I mean, he was chasing Tim. Lately when a masked man shows up and makes you follow him around, if it's not to get you killed, it's because they want you to see something crucial. That would explain why is first instinct is to go back and start investigating Alex the next day. And then #29 is Alex doing cleanup while Jay is robbing his house at the end of #50? Maybe TO was mad that Alex had left so much evidence of what had happened and left the shirt and rock there as a "YOU DONE GOOFED," leading to the events of #52.

EDIT #2: Still no definitive explanation for how this ended up on Jay's hard drive though. It's also worth noting that throughout the entirety of #49 (just skimming through), Jay never compares the events of the murder in #49 to #29. There's no "this must be what happened in #29" or anything. Just "this must be what happened after Alex left me in #38."

PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:05 am
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aidansean
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Starkley wrote:
Anyway, as far as the "bloody shirt is a symbol for murder" idea goes, I would have wanted to see evidence of TO doing similar things with the other attacks that Alex has committed before anything else.


The operator left dead animals in Alex's garden, then we never hear of Rocky again. It's as if the opreator was testing Alex, seeing if he was capable of killing his own pet before moving onto harder targets. This by no means strong evidence, but it's super creepy.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:37 am
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DHawk314
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 		I refuse to believe Rocky is dead! I know he's out there...somewhere...

Anyway, Jay does notice the similarities between the tunnel and the tunnel from 29 in Entry #48, saying "I need to see what Alex did in that tunnel." And then in the next entry it shows him killing the white T-Shirt guy, so it just seemed kinda obvious I think.

Anyway, as for why Jay doesn't notice the remains of Beard Guy's death in the tunnel when Masky leads him there, I don't know. I think it's safe to assume Masky leads him there so he can see the remains, but S2 Jay pointed out that 7 Month Jay failed to notice. I seem to recall my impression being that Jay was too busy yelling at Masky, but I realize that's not that great an explanation.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:56 am
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Starkley
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 		I think the best explanation really is that for some reason TO moved stuff to the other side of the tunnel, and during that video cut in #50 Jay saw whatever it was. The more I look at it, there's definitely an Operator symbol on the other side of that tunnel. And if #29 is worth anything, it tells us that TO could have appeared there (not saying that #29 and #50 are the same events obviously, just that #29 could be evidence for saying that The Operator could have done something at the end of the tunnel).

Although, it's still really convenient, because if The Operator had been there, Jay shouldn't have been able to remember too clearly what he saw. I guess he did though, and realized that he NEEDED that tape he saw in #46, so he went back to Alex's house the next day and stole it...but then decided that it was safe to go with Alex somewhere in the forest anyway? He couldn't have watched it, or else he's a major asshole for bringing Jessica with him and risking her being Slendynapped. But he should at least have had some serious suspicions of Alex at that point, enough to make him not want to go anywhere with the dude.

Just, no matter how you piece this together, it makes no sense. Including #29s existence at all.

It makes no sense within either the plot or narrative for #29 to be on the laptop; Jay never goes back to the tunnel after he sees it; all of the Season 2 entries (post-hotel-weirdness) are from the tapes he took from the hotel room. So really, #29 has no visible effect on the plot. If it was a message to say "DON'T TRUST ALEX," then it was pointless because Jay never meets Alex after the chronological events of #52. If it was a video to say "HERE BE EVIDENCE," it was pointless, because Jay never goes back to the tunnel after the chronological events of #52. If it didn't exist, in fact, the series would be better off...

You could argue that maybe #29 was put on the laptop before #52, but that just makes it even more ineffectual...

If that's the case, maybe #29 really has been retconned. It throws such a wrench into the series' logic; it seems like it only existed for our benefit.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:10 pm
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pravado
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 		the best example was that one posted recently about alex going back the day jay steals the entry 51 tape imo

totheark somehow got it on jays computer as no entry because he doesn't want jay to enter that tunnel anymore perhaps

PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:18 pm
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elkapo
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 		If Jay steals the camera after the event, could not find this clip in the camera's internal memory? Having gone to the computer, and so confused at the time, label it as "no entry" to find out something before releasing it? Then comes the memory gap and it is something new for him ...

PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:51 pm
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