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 Forum index » Chaotic Fiction » Slender Man Mythos
On Slendyvlog Crossovers
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awakeasaurusrex
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Joined: 12 Oct 2010
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 		On Slendyvlog Crossovers
I am increasingly of the opinion that I am sick of crossovers and wish high-profile, high-quality Slendervlogs would stop doing them.*

I can see why people want to do them. There's a benefit to creating the impression that your series is part of this wider cosmos. But I think there are costs to this which outweigh the benefits.

The way I see it, a crossover can happen two different ways:
a) You intended to cross over with a different Slenderseries from the start and planned accordingly. If you didn't know and weren't collaborating with the people running the other Slenderseries, that's kind of arrogant and presumptuous, and to be honest I can't think of any actual Slendervlog series which was actually created specifically for the sweet, sweet crossover action.

b) 99% of the time, so far as I can tell, people didn't plan to do any crossovers at all. They just started their Slendervlog, it got big enough and popular enough that people decided you were cool and you started hanging with other Slendervlog producers (if you weren't already), and then once you're established crossovers start happening spontaneously.

The former case, as established, almost never happens. In the latter case, because the crossover wasn't planned from the beginning, you need to adapt your plans and work on how the crossover is going to work, and whilst sometimes this can be accomplished smoothly in such a way that it looks natural (TribeTwelve and Dark Harvest's crossover with the cult meeting and the Slenderman beach party is perhaps the best crossover I've ever seen), I've also seen too many crossovers which just looked forced (the TribeTwelve/EMH crossover where Noah runs into HABIT and other EMH cast members just plain didn't work for me for this reason).

So, crossovers can impact the writing process in that way, even before you get into the question of how extensive the crossovers are. The way I see it, here you have three choices:

a) The crossover is significant in some way, and is a true "crossover" in the sense that the two different stories do cross paths. The characters from one vlog show up in another vlog and it's clear that they are those specific characters, and stuff happens which is significant to the plot of one or both vlogs. I find this sort of crossover to be the sort of idea which is really exciting in theory but actually kind of hurts both series in practice, for the following reasons:

i) Unless you do a really good job on the writing, people who haven't followed the other vlog are going to find the crossover confusing because you have these other characters showing up with their own motivations and histories which people who haven't followed their stories won't understand. It's deeply obnoxious to expect people to go catch up on some other story to understand what's going on in your own story; whilst I appreciate that you might really want to promote your favourite Slendervlog to your own viewers, at the same time if your story can't stand on its own, it just isn't a very good story.

ii) Once you bring the characters in, then you're establishing that they and you exist in the same universe. This means that either you have to take the creatively limiting option of agreeing to respect each others' take on how Slendy and other supernatural elements of your stories work, or you have to take the confusing and contradictory approach where in one story Slendy is an otherdimensional invader and in another story he's a tulpa spawned from people's own imaginations (or whatever) and you end up with two stories which actually have mutually incompatible backgrounds and cosmologies and secrets crossing over anyway for the hell of it. Neither solution is satisfying. ("But wait, what about parallel universes/other dimensions?" - again, that's fine if those things exist in the cosmologies of both stories, but often that isn't the case.)

iii) Plot developments are a pain. If you want the plot developments in question to be relevant to the other vlog as well as your own, then you're going to need to throw in information which, again, will mean nothing to people who are only following your vlog, which is obnoxious for reasons already outlined. If the plot developments that happen in the crossover are not relevant to the other vlog, then you're going to piss off their audience by wasting their time with stuff which doesn't actually affect the story they are following. If the plot developments are not relevant to your own vlog - or ultimately don't mean much to either vlog - then the crossover is just an enormous chunk of filler, and why burden either story with that?

In short, I find that making a crossover actually significant and meaningful lashes stories together in a way which is constrictive to both of them and will at points conflict with what one or the other wants to achieve, but if the vloggers in question ignore those constraints then it creates plot holes and confusion.

b) You could just go for a cameo. Have the actors from a different vlog show up briefly, make sure it's conceivably possible that they are the characters from their own vlog whilst not actually directly demonstrating that, and have their interactions with your characters (if they actually interact rather than passing by in the background) have no real critical plot relevance.

If you happen to have folks from a different series over to help you out with one of your videos, then a cameo could seem like a nice way to express your gratitude and give them a little shout-out without actually disrupting your plot. And if you keep the cameo low-key enough then you leave open the ambiguity as to whether those were the actual characters or merely their actors and so you don't have to worry about developments in each others' series affecting the others. At the same time, I still think this should be avoided, because you have to remember that even though you know that it's just a meaningless cameo, your audience don't, and unless you drop OOG and directly tell people that the cameo doesn't mean anything, your followers are going to latch onto the red herring and assume it means something, and at least some will be disappointed or annoyed if it turns out to be genuinely meaningless.

c) You give them a significant one-off role to play in your series but make it clear in-context that they aren't playing the character they play in their own vlog. This isn't really a crossover because the actual stories aren't crossing over, you're just having an appearance from someone who does a different vlog but they're playing a different character. Again, this should be avoided because part of the point of the medium is to create a sense of verisimilitude, and having the same person playing a different character in your vlog kind of destroys that by sending a loud and clear "THIS IS JUST A STORY, THESE ARE JUST ACTORS" signal.

In short, I don't think there's any way to do crossovers which doesn't dilute the story you are trying to tell or otherwise compromise the integrity of your vlog. As tempting as crossovers are, I am increasingly of the opinion that what I really want to see is people trying to just make great self-contained stories that can stand on their own. (Stories with an actual beginning, middle and end that don't drag themselves out but come to a proper and satisfying conclusion would be nice too.)

* Not going to address the blog scene because I simply don't follow it to the same extent, and the practical considerations there are radically different. (For starters, if you want a character to appear in a blog, great, you can just write an entry where they appear, whereas if you want a character from another vlog to appear in your videos you actually have to align schedules and do some filming, which is a whole logistical hurdle before you even begin to consider how to actually accomplish the crossover).

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:42 am
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Oransel
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 		I am only following Big 5 Series and it looks like 4 of them are finally connected.

As a longtime fan of various comicbooks, I am used to crossovers. It's not a bad concept, mind you. In fact, I enjoy them very much if they are done in a correct form (good storyark, good explanation for why you need to cross, no blatant contradictions).

Marvel and DC have editor's boards which maintain control over hundreds of simultaneous storylines and keep them in check, so there won't be any ridiculous stuff going on. Sometimes crossovers turn out to be bad, because of the editor's interference, sometimes they turn to be good, but at least such glaring questions as what is in the same universe and what is canon are more or less sorted out.

Slenderverse is organized on a horizontal principle. There is no authority to sort out the lore and any person with his/her series can cross with any other vlog/blog which is also connected to other, creating what we see here:

JosiahMiller wrote:
http://imgur.com/VojGdpD

It's in our DNA at this juncture.


Slenderverse has pulled almost all types of crossovers already. Main and sattelite channels for the same series (main EMH channel and Alex channel, for example); 2-way crossover (EMH and TT); multi-crossover (EMH, TT and DH).

I believe that we still may see a mega-crossover/Crisis event where all major players like EMH, TT, DH, MLA, Whispered Faith etc. will be parts of the same storyline (maybe on one channel even) which would try to finally unify them and create some sort of "canon" for Slenderman and explain WTF is going on. Or it may codify that what we've seen so far are different universes interfering with each other because of Slenderman and it's all big multiverse. In fact, lot's of things in recent TT and EMH videos are hinting at this possibility.

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:22 am
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awakeasaurusrex
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 		I honestly find Crisis-style kludges to try to explain the mutually contradictory elements of a bunch of stories which were originally separate to each other to be downright painful.

Crossovers make sense in comic franchises because DC and Marvel are central authorities who exist to sort out the lore, and because the DC Universe or Marvel Universe specialise in long ongoing sagas - Superman or Batman or X-Men aren't supposed to have a definitive "end", they just keep going and going and going. I honestly don't see that the Slendyvlog medium would benefit from some sort of consistent mythology.

And if you tried to have one big megacrossover, then in the course of doing so you'd end up creating a central authority, if only because you'd need a person or committee to step up and handle the logistics of getting everything in order and thrashing out a canon "bible" for folks to follow for the purpose of the crossover.

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:47 am
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Oransel
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awakeasaurusrex wrote:
I honestly find Crisis-style kludges to try to explain the mutually contradictory elements of a bunch of stories which were originally separate to each other to be downright painful.


Most of the times, yes.

awakeasaurusrex wrote:
Crossovers make sense in comic franchises because DC and Marvel are central authorities who exist to sort out the lore, and because the DC Universe or Marvel Universe specialise in long ongoing sagas - Superman or Batman or X-Men aren't supposed to have a definitive "end", they just keep going and going and going. I honestly don't see that the Slendyvlog medium would benefit from some sort of consistent mythology.

And if you tried to have one big megacrossover, then in the course of doing so you'd end up creating a central authority, if only because you'd need a person or committee to step up and handle the logistics of getting everything in order and thrashing out a canon "bible" for folks to follow for the purpose of the crossover.


Correct. However, you have to consider that slendervolgs are still a relatively new genre and like in all new genres, people want to experiment with the medium capabilities. Megacrossover may happen. It seems to me (though I may be wrong as I am just a regular watcher) that

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
TribeTwelve and EverymanHybrid along with closely associated channels and blogs groom their series for a big final confrontation between Slenderman (+ Collective), HABIT, other monsters, cults and "heroes". All Big 4 Slenderverse series simultaneously hint at major events coming down and those events are pretty much interconnected


Logistically and plot-wise it would not be an easy task to organize and film such event, though it's far from impossible.

Other option is simple handwaving, like hints at multiverse in each series.

Ignoring the crossover issue and refusal to explain that intercconection web at least in some fashion (including "everyone is a cameo" cheap excuse) would not be a good idea at all - some series are so interconnected (TT and EMH) that it's not really possible. This is in addition to high risk of disapointing the fans who are following the crossovers.

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:07 pm
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knifeman
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 		The problem with the whole every series is intertwined thing, is that the plot doesn't match for a lot of the series. For example, GlassBeetles connects to Michael'sCamera connects to memorysearcher connects to ICSTG connects all the way to TT, but in GlassBeetles, Michael turned into an evil God, defeated Slenderman, and the series is over (although it is starting to play a part in TRotTM now, go figure).

You can't really take all of it literally, or else none of the plots make sense, and every series is over.
_________________
SLOW AND STEADY WINS THE RACE.

Also, The Mystery of the ManTree or whatever is pretty cool.

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:37 pm
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ChildOfAtomModerator
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knifeman wrote:
The problem with the whole every series is intertwined thing, is that the plot doesn't match for a lot of the series.


This is an issue in ANY shared universe situation. Thanos can single-handedly bring the whole of the Avengers to their knees... and yet was defeated in solo combat by Squirrel Girl? Mr. Terrific is an atheist superhero who fights alongside Wonder Woman, who gets her power from... gods. Yet he remains an atheist? Wolverine is currently on 4 teams, runs a school, AND has has solo adventures, yet one of his powers, (oddly enough) is NOT time-travel?

You have to pay attention to the parts where the stories CAN interconnect, rather the points where they CAN'T.

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:07 pm
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Lithp
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Joined: 04 Mar 2012
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 		The fact that this stuff also happens in comics is exactly why I don't read comics. Other than that, I basically agree with the OP.

Also, if I had a series, & EMH made the offer, I would cross over so fast that it would...be like...something...really fast. So I'm not saying that people who make/enjoy crossovers are terrible people, or at least no more terrible than I am, I'm saying that crossovers are misguided & clunky, & generally only done because someone thinks that it would be cool.

As indicated in the OP, there's an exception when the series are basically planned to be combined from the start or as part of some kind of alternate continuity.

Point is, I can accept a crossover as a necessary evil, as long as the stories don't lose their sense of self in the process.

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:45 pm
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awakeasaurusrex
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Lithp wrote:
The fact that this stuff also happens in comics is exactly why I don't read comics.

This. I basically read standalone comics only precisely because crossover bullshit is ridiculous and off-putting and just hurts stories more than it helps nine times out of ten.

Quote:
Also, if I had a series, & EMH made the offer, I would cross over so fast that it would...be like...something...really fast. So I'm not saying that people who make/enjoy crossovers are terrible people, or at least no more terrible than I am, I'm saying that crossovers are misguided & clunky, & generally only done because someone thinks that it would be cool.

Yeah, I 100% see why the temptation is there, I just think it's a terrible idea to actually go through with it. I have huge respect for Marble Hornets in remaining aloof from crossovermania.

Quote:
Point is, I can accept a crossover as a necessary evil, as long as the stories don't lose their sense of self in the process.

Which is precisely what I've found is happening too much these days.

Oransel wrote:
Correct. However, you have to consider that slendervolgs are still a relatively new genre and like in all new genres, people want to experiment with the medium capabilities.

I don't mind experimentation, but I find it really alarming that more or less all the major series (aside from Marble Hornets) seems to have been drawn into the experiment.

The thing about these sort of stylistic experiments is that they are risks and if they go badly then you can't make them unhappen and your story is forever less than what it could have been afterwards. It disturbs me that there seems to be almost no Slendyvlogs of a high quality (by the genre's standards) that have resisted being drawn into this. It feels too much like putting all the eggs in one basket.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:35 pm
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Oransel
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Lithp wrote:
Point is, I can accept a crossover as a necessary evil, as long as the stories don't lose their sense of self in the process.


awakeasaurusrex wrote:
The thing about these sort of stylistic experiments is that they are risks and if they go badly then you can't make them unhappen and your story is forever less than what it could have been afterwards. It disturbs me that there seems to be almost no Slendyvlogs of a high quality (by the genre's standards) that have resisted being drawn into this. It feels too much like putting all the eggs in one basket.


I see your points and I understand them, but I don't think that crossovers have ruined any individual slenderseries so far.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:49 pm
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Lithp
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 		My experience has been that a crossover won't "ruin" a series directly, but like A.S.R. said, it adds strain to the story, & if you're already having problems, that's not a good idea.

And you're not going to have the same effect in everyone. Someone who follows & enjoys Tribe Twelve is less likely to be concerned about the recent EMH...thing. There are also people who will follow certain series no matter what, or just like crossovers for the sake of crossovers, for whatever reason.

On the other hand, you don't lose people because you don't cross over.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:16 pm
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awakeasaurusrex
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 		Then I don't think we're going to be able to usefully agree, Oransel, because I think they have already ruined several.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:16 pm
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Lithp
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awakeasaurusrex wrote:
Then I don't think we're going to be able to usefully agree, Oransel, because I think they have already ruined several.


Care to elaborate? Though, fair warning, I probably won't recognize anything that doesn't contain the words "Keratin Garden" or "EverymanHYBRID."

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:18 pm
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awakeasaurusrex
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Lithp wrote:
On the other hand, you don't lose people because you don't cross over.

This. Thisthisthisthisthisthis. This. Nobody said "Man, this Slendervlog is OK, but what it really needs is a crossover with EMH, then I'd really be into it", or "Damnit, I'm getting increasingly pissed off that this Slendervlog isn't crossing over with TribeTwelve" and nobody ever will. People might dig the idea of a particular series crossing over with another one, but it's never going to be a make or break issue for people - nobody ever followed a series solely because they hoped at some point Evan would show up and get all HABITy about the place.

Conversely, more or less every time a crossover happens, even when it's a really well-executed one like the first major DarkHarvest00/TribeTwelve crossover, I see people going "eh, fuck this, I'm done".

This being the case, who in their right mind would deliberately alienate and piss off a section of their audience for the sake of giving a different section of their audience a little treat that that section of the audience would be perfectly happy if the crossover had never come to pass? Provided you don't actually announce a crossover then cancel it, nobody can be disappointed or angry that you didn't provide one - at least, nobody reasonable enough that their opinion is worth bothering with in the first place.

@Lithp: EverymanHYBRID I found enough of a pain to follow with its very, very diffuse structure and increasingly attenuated storytelling, but the crossovers were the straw that broke this camel's back. I also find EMH sufficiently irritating at this point that whenever it turns up in another series I always think worse of the series in question. I know this may not be a popular opinion but I think EMH has well and truly outstayed its welcome and given the absolutely glacial pace of the plot it could have happily wrapped up a year or two ago, at least.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:23 pm
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JosiahMiller
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awakeasaurusrex wrote:
Nobody said "Man, this Slendervlog is OK, but what it really needs is a crossover with EMH, then I'd really be into it", or "Damnit, I'm getting increasingly pissed off that this Slendervlog isn't crossing over with TribeTwelve" and nobody ever will.


Well to be fair, the DarkHarvest/Tribe Twelve crossover increased my interest for DarkHarvest so that isn't true at all.

It was really enjoyable to see the DarkHarvest boys as being dickish to Noah and then watch it from their side and see "oh man...everyone loses here."

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:34 pm
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Lithp
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Quote:
Well to be fair, the DarkHarvest/Tribe Twelve crossover increased my interest for DarkHarvest so that isn't true at all.


But that's not going to mean shit if DarkHarvest can't keep your interest without crossing over. A crossover may cause a surge of activity, but after a while, it will regress back to the average.

Quote:
@Lithp: EverymanHYBRID I found enough of a pain to follow with its very, very diffuse structure and increasingly attenuated storytelling, but the crossovers were the straw that broke this camel's back. I also find EMH sufficiently irritating at this point that whenever it turns up in another series I always think worse of the series in question. I know this may not be a popular opinion but I think EMH has well and truly outstayed its welcome and given the absolutely glacial pace of the plot it could have happily wrapped up a year or two ago, at least.


I don't think it could have ended that quickly, even accounting for how slow it's been updating & for how long. Still, I would say that people would have a hard time saying that most of this is irrelevant, if they actually look at what all of the fans are saying, as opposed to just the really dedicated ones.

I stopped watching Keratin Garden because I thought she was tossing cameos & plot twists out when she hadn't done enough to develop her own series yet.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:50 pm
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