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 Forum index » Chaotic Fiction » Marble Hornets
[VIDEO] Decay
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pravado
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Yuki wrote:
pravado wrote:
Yuki wrote:
Susil wrote:
ToTheArcanine wrote:
So guys, about ol' totheark using Jay for everything... Why is this?


Far be it from me to distract us from a good game of 'circle the shrub', but I want to pull this question back up in the thread. Because important.

Really though, why do TTA think Jay will lead them anywhere? Jay's idea of dectective work is to stare at an antique dealership for three months. Then to sit outside a mental health clinic for a week. With a camera.

Obviously we all love Jay for his derpiness, but it makes it really hard to see how he will lead anyone to "the ark". If Tim is capable of magically breaking into Jay's house/appartment/hotel, and TTA (if not Tim) can follow Jay without his knowledge, why are they so convinced he will lead them anywhere, to anything? TTA seems to know so much more than either Jay, or indeed any of us - whats stopping them looking for the ark on their own?


I think it's because Jay is the only one that's not completely batshit as a result of all of this. It's hard on him, but not nearly as much as for Tim, Brian, Jessica, and Alex.



I still think it's because Jay is immune to the sickness. He has been taken by the operator at least once and let free (entry 23) but has not developed any signs of sickness outside of immediate sickness (coughing and passing out) - but he never coughs up blood or shows any sign of a dual personality in his recordings


He's been fucked with, though; remember the entry that he got up and went somewhere but didn't emerge on the other side of the door, and remembers nothing?


that could just be the operator / totheark screwing with the camera, has nothing to do with the slender sickness

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:34 pm
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Cougar Draven
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pravado wrote:
Cougar Draven wrote:
I'm of the opinion that every time Jay is being surreptitiously filmed by someone else, it's Hoody/Sinclair filming him. I also have some ideas as to the identity of this person, and I think they're working together.

It delves into the nature of the psychology, but put simply, I believe totheark is a surrogate personality taken root in Jay's mind, similar to how Tim appears to be Tim and Masky. Likewise, I think Hoody is what's left of Brian after Big and Tall got to him. I don't think there's anything left of "Brian", but "Sinclair" seems to still exist.




totheark videotaped jay in entry 16, and also videotaped him in return (present day) - tta can not be jay


You're just not reading anything I'm writing, are you? Go read that again, what I quoted above, the part where I have a sound argument against you. Seriously.

Camero wrote:
True. That said, the concept that Jay may be acting quite a bit without himself or us realizing it is something work considering. He can't be the current TTA if he was EVER TTA(which is very unlikely in my opinion), but its entirely possible that he's been acting against his own will.


"current" TTA? That doesn't make any damn sense whatsoever. Why should there have been more than one in the first place, and if not Jay, then who? Tim's the only other likely candidate, and he's had a shot at Alex, so it's very unlikely that anyone's going to "lead" him anywhere he hasn't been. Brian's missing, presumed dead.

Jay is the most likely candidate. Hell, if people would just fucking read something every once in a while instead of ignoring everything they didn't come up with themselves, we might be somewhere with this.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:41 pm
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Mondai
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Cougar Draven wrote:
Jay is the most likely candidate. Hell, if people would just fucking read something every once in a while instead of ignoring everything they didn't come up with themselves, we might be somewhere with this.


Calm down, sugarcube. A stubborn disagreement isn't always for lack of listening, so to speak. Maybe the people disagreeing with you here just see things differently. You seem to be focusing on the narrative and psychology. Some people prefer to focus on more tangible kinds of proof. Me, for one: I don't see how Jay could have gotten third-person video such as sleeping in the back of his car. So I find it hard to believe that he could be TTA. That obviously isn't conclusive enough to say that he CAN'T, but I personally don't think it makes sense unless there's more than one person involved in TTA.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:25 pm
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morscata12
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Cougar Draven wrote:
pravado wrote:
Cougar Draven wrote:
I'm of the opinion that every time Jay is being surreptitiously filmed by someone else, it's Hoody/Sinclair filming him. I also have some ideas as to the identity of this person, and I think they're working together.

It delves into the nature of the psychology, but put simply, I believe totheark is a surrogate personality taken root in Jay's mind, similar to how Tim appears to be Tim and Masky. Likewise, I think Hoody is what's left of Brian after Big and Tall got to him. I don't think there's anything left of "Brian", but "Sinclair" seems to still exist.




totheark videotaped jay in entry 16, and also videotaped him in return (present day) - tta can not be jay


You're just not reading anything I'm writing, are you? Go read that again, what I quoted above, the part where I have a sound argument against you. Seriously.

Camero wrote:
True. That said, the concept that Jay may be acting quite a bit without himself or us realizing it is something work considering. He can't be the current TTA if he was EVER TTA(which is very unlikely in my opinion), but its entirely possible that he's been acting against his own will.


"current" TTA? That doesn't make any damn sense whatsoever. Why should there have been more than one in the first place, and if not Jay, then who? Tim's the only other likely candidate, and he's had a shot at Alex, so it's very unlikely that anyone's going to "lead" him anywhere he hasn't been. Brian's missing, presumed dead.

Jay is the most likely candidate. Hell, if people would just fucking read something every once in a while instead of ignoring everything they didn't come up with themselves, we might be somewhere with this.


First, I do want to point out that your argument is not sound because that would require that all of your premises are true. Since we are only speculating rather than building off confirmed facts, your argument cannot be proven sound until everything your argument is built on have been proven true. We cannot start throwing around things like soundness to try to prove our theories over those of others.

Anyway, I understand what your theory is. The current theory is that ToTheArk consists of multiple members, somewhat acting together to reach a common goal, and that tonal inconsistencies across videos is due to having multiple members with different styles. You are theorizing that Jay alone is ToTheArk, and that he is working alongside Masky and Hoody to get what he wants.

A lot of the phrasing in the videos imply that Jay might be only one of several members in season 2, and wasn't a member in season 1. Season 1 had lines like "Return to us" and "we will wait for you no more, control is being taken away from you", implying that there is a collective waiting for Jay to rejoin ToTheArk.

Here's how I think it could play out: Alt-Jay would reveal that he had created videos and asked Masky and Hoody to bother him so he'd break down real-Jay. This would give him more time in real-Jay's body, giving him time to find The Ark.

However, ToTheArk's motivations and actions don't really change if they reveal it was Jay the whole time. Anyone could be doing these actions, and the only reason you could put Jay's alternate personality into that slot is because anyone on the cast could fit there. I feel like Jay's journey to finding the truth is the central story for MH. If Jay is ToTheArk, that seems to throw a lot of that story away in favor of an unnecessary twist.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:36 pm
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pravado
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Cougar Draven wrote:
pravado wrote:
Cougar Draven wrote:
I'm of the opinion that every time Jay is being surreptitiously filmed by someone else, it's Hoody/Sinclair filming him. I also have some ideas as to the identity of this person, and I think they're working together.

It delves into the nature of the psychology, but put simply, I believe totheark is a surrogate personality taken root in Jay's mind, similar to how Tim appears to be Tim and Masky. Likewise, I think Hoody is what's left of Brian after Big and Tall got to him. I don't think there's anything left of "Brian", but "Sinclair" seems to still exist.




totheark videotaped jay in entry 16, and also videotaped him in return (present day) - tta can not be jay


You're just not reading anything I'm writing, are you? Go read that again, what I quoted above, the part where I have a sound argument against you. Seriously.

Camero wrote:
True. That said, the concept that Jay may be acting quite a bit without himself or us realizing it is something work considering. He can't be the current TTA if he was EVER TTA(which is very unlikely in my opinion), but its entirely possible that he's been acting against his own will.


"current" TTA? That doesn't make any damn sense whatsoever. Why should there have been more than one in the first place, and if not Jay, then who? Tim's the only other likely candidate, and he's had a shot at Alex, so it's very unlikely that anyone's going to "lead" him anywhere he hasn't been. Brian's missing, presumed dead.

Jay is the most likely candidate. Hell, if people would just fucking read something every once in a while instead of ignoring everything they didn't come up with themselves, we might be somewhere with this.


your defense in this argument is weak as hell, sperglord. rereading that i still found no "solid argument" or anything that contradicts what i said. totheark can't be jay because jay can't be standing behind himself filming himself

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:39 pm
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Cougar Draven
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Mondai wrote:
Cougar Draven wrote:
Jay is the most likely candidate. Hell, if people would just fucking read something every once in a while instead of ignoring everything they didn't come up with themselves, we might be somewhere with this.


Calm down, sugarcube. A stubborn disagreement isn't always for lack of listening, so to speak. Maybe the people disagreeing with you here just see things differently. You seem to be focusing on the narrative and psychology. Some people prefer to focus on more tangible kinds of proof. Me, for one: I don't see how Jay could have gotten third-person video such as sleeping in the back of his car. So I find it hard to believe that he could be TTA. That obviously isn't conclusive enough to say that he CAN'T, but I personally don't think it makes sense unless there's more than one person involved in TTA.


Christ. Fuck you, and fuck your condescension. It stops being "stubborn disagreement" and starts being "can't fucking read" when I have to repeat the same thing three times and it's still being casually disregarded by someone without anything to back their own viewpoint up other than "lolnoyou'rewrong".

And I've already responded to the people who say "WELL HOW DID HE FILM HIMSELF", it's not my fault if people just are too lazy to go find out what I've said.

pravado wrote:
your defense in this argument is weak as hell, sperglord. rereading that i still found no "solid argument" or anything that contradicts what i said. totheark can't be jay because jay can't be standing behind himself filming himself


Four times.

So I'm guessing that the part where I pointed out he's not actually filming himself didn't get through your meter-thick skull.

Good to know.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:46 pm
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Cougar Draven
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morscata12 wrote:
First, I do want to point out that your argument is not sound because that would require that all of your premises are true. Since we are only speculating rather than building off confirmed facts, your argument cannot be proven sound until everything your argument is built on have been proven true. We cannot start throwing around things like soundness to try to prove our theories over those of others.


When people stop considering only their preferred theory as the One True Epileptic Tree, I'll stop hammering the point home that none of us knows what the fuck's going on here. Until then, deal with it.

morscata12 wrote:
Anyway, I understand what your theory is. The current theory is that ToTheArk consists of multiple members, somewhat acting together to reach a common goal, and that tonal inconsistencies across videos is due to having multiple members with different styles. You are theorizing that Jay alone is ToTheArk, and that he is working alongside Masky and Hoody to get what he wants.


And the "current" theory is needlessly complicated, as well as likely wrong. But hey, that's just my opinion, right?

morscata12 wrote:
A lot of the phrasing in the videos imply that Jay might be only one of several members in season 2, and wasn't a member in season 1. Season 1 had lines like "Return to us" and "we will wait for you no more, control is being taken away from you", implying that there is a collective waiting for Jay to rejoin ToTheArk.


Alternatively, TTA is an alternate personality of Jay's that is superaware, while Jay is not aware of TTA's piggybacking of his mind. That seems to be what has happened with Tim regarding the "Masky" personality. Also, more often than not, the videos that had text in them were directed at Alex, not at Jay.

morscata12 wrote:
Here's how I think it could play out: Alt-Jay would reveal that he had created videos and asked Masky and Hoody to bother him so he'd break down real-Jay. This would give him more time in real-Jay's body, giving him time to find The Ark.


Or he's trying to become aware enough to completely take control of Jay and kill Alex for exposing him to the Operator and beginning his mental descent. We don't even know what this "ark" is, if it even exists.

morscata12 wrote:
However, ToTheArk's motivations and actions don't really change if they reveal it was Jay the whole time. Anyone could be doing these actions, and the only reason you could put Jay's alternate personality into that slot is because anyone on the cast could fit there. I feel like Jay's journey to finding the truth is the central story for MH. If Jay is ToTheArk, that seems to throw a lot of that story away in favor of an unnecessary twist.


Actually, not "anyone" could fit there. Only Jay, Brian, Tim, and Alex could ever have fit there, and Alex and Tim make no sense as TTA after the end of season 2. Brian also makes little sense, as someone needs to be Hoodie, and that one's pretty obviously not Jay.

Also, how does that throw away any story, and why would that twist be unnecessary? That's like saying revealing Tim as Masky was unnecessary.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:59 pm
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Nyxandria
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 		Text Wall Incoming:

While from a psychological stand point, it could make a hell of a lot of sense for Jay to have Dissociative Identity Disorder, likely to cope with being stalked by an Eldritch Abomination, it doesn't, at this point, make much "artistic sense". Yeah, he could have a split personality and he could've been doing this the whole time, but it still doesn't feel like it's a good fit. Yeah, it could explain the random memory loss, and how TTA was able to get into his Twitter and YouTube to upload enttry 37, and sure, the footage of him looking sleep-deprived and terrified in "Return" would probably be enough emotional trauma to give most people DID, but it still just doesn't feel right.

In most recorded cases of Dissociative Identity Disorder, people rarely have memories of their secondary personalities, while the secondary personalities are usually very aware of the primary. If we were to assume that Jay's alternate personality is involved in TTA, then I suppose "Reminder" could make sense, like perhaps TO only managed to wipe Jay's memories and not Jay2's memories. So it is entirely possible. But then this:

Should there be an alternate personality of Jay's running ToTheArk hour and have these videos to make artistic sense to me, JayPrime and Jay2 would've had to lose their memories completely, meaning someone else is having to try to force JayPrime and Jay2 to wake up and remember whatever it was TO wiped from them. Or maybe Jay2 got wiped and JayPrime didn't and they don't mean JayPrime will lead them to Alex, but Jay2. Which I guess could explain why TTA was quiet for those 7 months where JayPrime doesn't remember anything, because Jay2 was the one in charge. But then, it does make me wonder why the TTA videos seem threatening from time to time. If Jay2 is in ToTheArk and JayPrime is just along for the ride, then Jay2 has to have some kind of idea on how JayPrime is going to react to seeing these videos. It would be easier to have both personalities working towards the same goal, so why be cryptic and terrifying and "Found You Forever" when it could be easier to upload the videos and just list out what Jay2 knows for JayPrime to read instead of hiding and playing games?

So yeah, DID would cover a lot of the bases. But it still leaves too many open questions for me to readily accept it as "the One True Epileptic Tree".
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:25 pm
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Mondai
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Cougar Draven wrote:
Mondai wrote:
Cougar Draven wrote:
Jay is the most likely candidate. Hell, if people would just fucking read something every once in a while instead of ignoring everything they didn't come up with themselves, we might be somewhere with this.


Calm down, sugarcube. A stubborn disagreement isn't always for lack of listening, so to speak. Maybe the people disagreeing with you here just see things differently. You seem to be focusing on the narrative and psychology. Some people prefer to focus on more tangible kinds of proof. Me, for one: I don't see how Jay could have gotten third-person video such as sleeping in the back of his car. So I find it hard to believe that he could be TTA. That obviously isn't conclusive enough to say that he CAN'T, but I personally don't think it makes sense unless there's more than one person involved in TTA.


Christ. Fuck you, and fuck your condescension. It stops being "stubborn disagreement" and starts being "can't fucking read" when I have to repeat the same thing three times and it's still being casually disregarded by someone without anything to back their own viewpoint up other than "lolnoyou'rewrong".

And I've already responded to the people who say "WELL HOW DID HE FILM HIMSELF", it's not my fault if people just are too lazy to go find out what I've said.

pravado wrote:
your defense in this argument is weak as hell, sperglord. rereading that i still found no "solid argument" or anything that contradicts what i said. totheark can't be jay because jay can't be standing behind himself filming himself


Four times.

So I'm guessing that the part where I pointed out he's not actually filming himself didn't get through your meter-thick skull.

Good to know.


Awwwww, sweetie, you thought I was being condescending.

Did I say that you were wrong? That doesn't sound like something I'd have opened with... Here I thought I'd said that you may very well be right. I'm certain I meant to point out that I respect that you have a different point of view. But when people talk about Jay being taped in season 1, it seems likely to me that they don't mean from the original Marble Hornets video, or from him recording his sleep, but maybe they mean for example when he passed out in, who's was it, Brian's house I think? And maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I don't think that was Kay's camera, was it?

And say it was goodies taping Jay when he was passed out in the back of the car in season 2. That's a perfectly reasonable theory. But how did Jay (or, his alter ego) get it? This is a rather important factor that I can't seem to explain.

And for the record, hon, I read every single post in this thread. But I didn't take the time to memorize exactly who said what. Stop assuming that everybody's too lazy or self-important to read before posting. And if you don't accuse me of being condescending, I won't patronize you, nn'kay sweet pea? Very Happy

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:32 pm
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chaos_angel
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Cougar Draven wrote:


Actually, not "anyone" could fit there. Only Jay, Brian, Tim, and Alex could ever have fit there, and Alex and Tim make no sense as TTA after the end of season 2. Brian also makes little sense, as someone needs to be Hoodie, and that one's pretty obviously not Jay.

Also, how does that throw away any story, and why would that twist be unnecessary? That's like saying revealing Tim as Masky was unnecessary.


Tim pretty much *has* to be, if not part of TTA, working with TTA. All the Masky footage in TTA's videos demands it. Same with Hoody. Both have been seen in TTA videos with footage that is pretty obvious was shot specifically for that TTA video. We've never seen anyone else in a TTA video that wasn't footage taken from somewhere else. Therefore, Masky and Hoody are, at most, full TTA members, or at least, working with whoever TTA is. Tim is confirmed as Masky; Jay is pretty clearly not Hoody. We have no evidence to suggest a third member; that said, there could *be* one, as it's possible that Hoody was always part of TTA and we never saw him in Season One. We just haven't seen anything to hint at a third member yet.

I've always been a fan of the "Jay's alternate personality is secretly TTA" theory, to be honest, and I'd really like it to be true because it would be an awesome part of the story. I just haven't seen anything that makes me 100% sure he's involved, and until I do, I'm going to assume he's not.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:42 pm
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morscata12
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Cougar Draven wrote:
Actually, not "anyone" could fit there. Only Jay, Brian, Tim, and Alex could ever have fit there, and Alex and Tim make no sense as TTA after the end of season 2. Brian also makes little sense, as someone needs to be Hoodie, and that one's pretty obviously not Jay.

Also, how does that throw away any story, and why would that twist be unnecessary? That's like saying revealing Tim as Masky was unnecessary.


I meant "anyone" as anyone in the MH crew. Jay has the same motives as Tim, Seth, Brian, and the other cast/crew - Alex betrayed them all to the Operator. And any of them could be running the channel, regardless of their physical role in the present timeline (Tim as Masky, Brian as Hoody, Jay as owner of the MarbleHornets channel).

However, on the story level, I feel like the main character arc is Jay's. He came to the audience with a confusing stack of evidence, and puzzled through it while fighting off obstacles. I feel like the end of his arc will be him coming to terms with the truth before being destroyed by it. That might feel undermined if the reveal of ToTheArk indicates that Jay already knew everything (subconsciously) and didn't gain very much from his efforts. It would turn his arc from a sweeping tale into something incredibly small. At this stage of the story, I feel like there would be too much dissonance between a small ending and Jay's large-scale search. I don't think enough of those pieces have been placed to make that conclusion to the story, and if this season focuses on Tim, they might not have enough time to build that framework to make that sort of twist ending work.

Cougar Draven wrote:
morscata12 wrote:
Here's how I think it could play out: Alt-Jay would reveal that he had created videos and asked Masky and Hoody to bother him so he'd break down real-Jay. This would give him more time in real-Jay's body, giving him time to find The Ark.


Or he's trying to become aware enough to completely take control of Jay and kill Alex for exposing him to the Operator and beginning his mental descent. We don't even know what this "ark" is, if it even exists.


It seems like during the Season 1 break, alt-Jay had a lot of opportunity to come out and strike at Alex. He was around Alex a lot, and would just need to black out once for the alternate personality to take Alex down. With the Operator and Masky nearby, I would be surprised if Jay wasn't consistently blacking out during the break (since I think that's what triggered his condition during Season 1). We know that Jay didn't take Alex down, since Masky was the one to pull the trigger on that (intentional pun), so if that was alt-Jay's motivation, it's odd that he didn't act on it.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:44 pm
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ReverendJ
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Cougar Draven wrote:

When people stop considering only their preferred theory as the One True Epileptic Tree, I'll stop hammering the point home that none of us knows what the fuck's going on here. Until then, deal with it.

I've got a theory, screaming like a spoiled baby isn't going to make people listen to you.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:45 pm
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Mondai
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ReverendJ wrote:
Cougar Draven wrote:

When people stop considering only their preferred theory as the One True Epileptic Tree, I'll stop hammering the point home that none of us knows what the fuck's going on here. Until then, deal with it.

I've got a theory, screaming like a spoiled baby isn't going to make people listen to you.


So I wasn't the only one who found that bit, in particular, somewhat ironic?

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:53 pm
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Randoman96
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Cougar Draven wrote:
When people stop considering only their preferred theory as the One True Epileptic Tree, I'll stop hammering the point home that none of us knows what the fuck's going on here. Until then, deal with it.
I'm afraid you're the only one doing that, buddy

Everyone has their own theories and whining like a child when people dismiss yours isn't going to make a better case, you just end up looking like a child.

Tell you what, even if you are right and every single person here that disagrees with you (which appears to be everybody) is wrong, so what? What do you get out of bitching on a forum about it? Go do something else. Come back another time and mention your theory if more evidence comes up for it. If people don't take to it, then that's that. No need to derail a topic for a page and a half because you feel the need to insult everyone about it.
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onetruepurple
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 		Tangentially related to the above shitfest: Jay might not be TTA, but I feel he was the one who actually posted enttry #37 in a lapse of awareness.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:43 pm
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