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 Forum index » Chaotic Fiction » Slender Man Mythos
[LOCKED] [NEWS/META]Stabbing of 12-year-old in Wisconsin
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Lithp
I Have No Life


Joined: 04 Mar 2012
Posts: 2058

 		Blaming the parents really isn't any better. Unless there's an actual article detailing abuse or neglect.

Also, does it really matter if people call Slenderman a creepypasta?

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:43 pm
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Checkmite
Boot

Joined: 20 Dec 2010
Posts: 56

 		Nah, seems like a semantic niggle to me.

Still not too concerned about bad press. Here's what CNN has to say about Slender Man and creepypasta, and it hasn't inspired me to panic.

Frankly I'm more worried about what might happen if some joker decides to use this real-life event as the basis for a story. I think that would be much more harmful to internet short-horror.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:58 pm
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Zarggg
Unfictologist


Joined: 23 Dec 2010
Posts: 1660

 		I've been holding comment on this thus far, but I agree that this is terrible. Those girls were clearly mentally disturbed to begin with. This is what happens when people are unable to tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:31 pm
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Lithp
I Have No Life


Joined: 04 Mar 2012
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 		I don't actually think that's what happened. I think one or both of them concocted the story to try to make herself seem more innocent. If one of them concocted the plan, then she might have convinced the other of the story, but listening to their accounts, it's hard to say that either is less malicious than the other.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:56 pm
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AssassinB
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Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 215
Lithp wrote:
I don't actually think that's what happened. I think one or both of them concocted the story to try to make herself seem more innocent. If one of them concocted the plan, then she might have convinced the other of the story, but listening to their accounts, it's hard to say that either is less malicious than the other.


Do you really think 12 year olds have that much foresight? I mean it's not that hard to believe that they actually did think that Slenderman was telling the one girl things in her sleep. That's why I think that now of all times is when the media should be VERY ACCURATE about terms they use such as calling Slenderman exclusively a pasta, it's misleading to parents who are now just learning about the mythos for the first time through this terrible series of events. Although CNN covered the origin of Slendy (which is more than any other article did, may I add) they didn't explain in much detail what form Slenderman has taken currently, so that leaves a whole lot to the readers interpretation thus making Slenderman and the fear mythos legitimately scary to the uneducated populous. Almost like how when OFWGKTA came into the limelight a while ago and people saw the rap group as a legitimate gang who did every thing they said in their songs (which can't be further from the truth) leading to the banning of all OF clothing, songs, etc. in certain public schools for like a full year (which pissed me off because I'm a huge fan). It might turn into the same thing.

Also in that CNN video Checkmite posted, at one point the reporter says "Police are looking at their computers in order to figure out what else they were influenced by." What does that mean to me? Prepare your jimmies, because they're about to rag on THAC and all the other vlog creators. You can't tell me that these 12 year olds only read a couple pastas and got the idea of proxies and violence that vividly, they had to have had visual influence.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:11 pm
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Checkmite
Boot

Joined: 20 Dec 2010
Posts: 56

 		What's "THAC"?

The girls having used the term "proxies" to me suggests they were certainly familiar with the videos and their fan base, because it's fans of the videos that made up the term proxies, and I'm not 100% but I don't recall ever seeing any of the videos themselves referring to those characters with that term (could be wrong). The fact of them wanting to "prove Slender Man was real" to me also suggests that they've interacted with the fan base, because the fan base are the folks that understand and talk about Slender Man as if he's fictional (because he is).

But in any case, again we're talking about "the media" making all these misstatements. The media is doing nothing but reporting what the girls have said: That they found out about "Slender Man" on creepypasta.wikia.com last year, they called him "the leader of the creepypastas", and they intimated that they were attempting to travel to some "mansion" Slender Man had in a Wisconsin national forest - which is a new one on me, I might add. Of course in order to fully report the story, they have to give a basic rundown on what "Slender Man" is - a fictional character made up by so-and-so on Something Awful, which became prolific internet meme; and creepypastas are scary short-stories posted on the internet. End of story. There's no need for CNN or anyone else to create some primetime special on "the history of Slendormon" or a documentary on creepypasta.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:31 pm
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Lithp
I Have No Life


Joined: 04 Mar 2012
Posts: 2058
Quote:
Do you really think 12 year olds have that much foresight?


There are 2 curious things about this question:

1. You could just as easily ask "do you really think 12 year olds can plan a murder?" Which, clearly, they can. If you read their remarks, they clearly had a lot of plans for the murder. They say that they knew that they were going to kill someone & that it was "probably wrong." Do I believe that they thought that far ahead & then arbitrarily didn't bother thinking about how to get away with it? No, no I do not. One of the girls even asked if it's legal to kill in self-defense, implying that, yes, this was on their minds.

2. The other thing is that you're implying that this is some kind of stroke of genius. It's a popular belief that you can get off in a court by "acting crazy." Yes, I do think this would SEEM clever to a 12 year old. However, it also shows impulsive ignorance, because even a little bit of research would tell you that this isn't likely to work.

Quote:
I mean it's not that hard to believe that they actually did think that Slenderman was telling the one girl things in her sleep.


Why is that not hard for you to believe? Serious question. You are clearly aware that they could not have gotten most of these ideas from the Slenderman mythos. So do you believe that they have hallucinations? Even though there's no evidence for it & they talk about how much they planned the murder?

So if the Mythos didn't tell them to do it, they don't have hallucinations, & it's simply unbelievable that they came up with the idea by themselves, then where do you propose that they got this story from?

You can point to the proxies, but kids tell scary stories about monsters & murderers all of the time, & they rarely say, "Hey, I'm one of those." 12 years old is also 6th grade, which is more than enough time to develop basic skepticism, IE "Santa's not real, you're just placing the presents yourself."

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:42 pm
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AssassinB
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Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 215
Checkmite wrote:
What's "THAC"?


Troy Has a Camera, AKA the MH boys.

Checkmite wrote:
The girls having used the term "proxies" to me suggests they were certainly familiar with the videos and their fan base, because it's fans of the videos that made up the term proxies, and I'm not 100% but I don't recall ever seeing any of the videos themselves referring to those characters with that term (could be wrong).


Still doesn't change the fact that they had visual influences, I don't believe I said that they used the word proxies in videos.

Checkmite wrote:
But in any case, again we're talking about "the media" making all these misstatements. The media is doing nothing but reporting what the girls have said: That they found out about "Slender Man" on creepypasta.wikia.com last year, they called him "the leader of the creepypastas", and they intimated that they were attempting to travel to some "mansion" Slender Man had in a Wisconsin national forest - which is a new one on me, I might add. Of course in order to fully report the story, they have to give a basic rundown on what "Slender Man" is - a fictional character made up by so-and-so on Something Awful, which became prolific internet meme; and creepypastas are scary short-stories posted on the internet. End of story. There's no need for CNN or anyone else to create some primetime special on "the history of Slendormon" or a documentary on creepypasta.


So what you're saying is that the media doing a half-ass job is cool with you? I mean if you don't care that's all fine and dandy but I personally would like to see media cover ALL stories of EVERY kind with more accuracy, it's probably one of the biggest problems plaguing America right now.

Lithp wrote:
Quote:
Do you really think 12 year olds have that much foresight?


There are 2 curious things about this question:

1. You could just as easily ask "do you really think 12 year olds can plan a murder?" Which, clearly, they can. If you read their remarks, they clearly had a lot of plans for the murder. They say that they knew that they were going to kill someone & that it was "probably wrong." Do I believe that they thought that far ahead & then arbitrarily didn't bother thinking about how to get away with it? No, no I do not. One of the girls even asked if it's legal to kill in self-defense, implying that, yes, this was on their minds.

2. The other thing is that you're implying that this is some kind of stroke of genius. It's a popular belief that you can get off in a court by "acting crazy." Yes, I do think this would SEEM clever to a 12 year old. However, it also shows impulsive ignorance, because even a little bit of research would tell you that this isn't likely to work.




1. That's not what I said, I was clearly stating that these girls did not have the ability to see into the probable future and think about the consequences of their actions. You're kind of twisting my words man. Anybody can plan on stabbing someone, not many people can successfully plan how to get away with it, let alone a 12 year old girl. Also, any person with real foresight wouldn't say ANYTHING that they said to the police (if they actually had it they would have said absolutely nothing), this leads me to....

2. >implying that I'm implying anything like that with that sentence
It WAS impulsive, it WAS childish, and yes it probably did seem clever to those girls. I don't think that any amount of googling "how to get away with murder" would have changed their minds, they were clearly set on it for 8 months. So what's with the quasi-disagreement if we're on the same page here?



Lithp wrote:
Quote:
I mean it's not that hard to believe that they actually did think that Slenderman was telling the one girl things in her sleep.


Why is that not hard for you to believe? Serious question. You are clearly aware that they could not have gotten most of these ideas from the Slenderman mythos. So do you believe that they have hallucinations? Even though there's no evidence for it & they talk about how much they planned the murder?

So if the Mythos didn't tell them to do it, they don't have hallucinations, & it's simply unbelievable that they came up with the idea by themselves, then where do you propose that they got this story from?

You can point to the proxies, but kids tell scary stories about monsters & murderers all of the time, & they rarely say, "Hey, I'm one of those." 12 years old is also 6th grade, which is more than enough time to develop basic skepticism, IE "Santa's not real, you're just placing the presents yourself."


They're. 12. Years. Old. Tell me you didn't see shit that actually wasn't there in the corner of your dark room when you were 12. Add that to the fact that the parents most likely weren't monitoring internet activity and did not distinguish fact from fiction and you're looking at a very misled young girl with an overactive imagination. Also, even though it isn't really my place to speculate, but for the sake of this argument it's very possible she had legitimate diagnosed mental disorders/a very hard time in school. Countless of other factors could have gone into it. 12 isn't that old man, I know when I was 12 I was scared of females and catching frogs and shit. It's a pretty impressionable age, don't think it isn't just because you happened to be smarter than the average bear in middle school.

EDIT: Also, when did I say that I didn't believe they got most of the influence from the mythos? They clearly did, I don't know what you're talking about there. Also, hallucinations, no, vivid nightmares, yes. That is a very likely possibility.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:06 am
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Lithp
I Have No Life


Joined: 04 Mar 2012
Posts: 2058
Quote:
So what's with the quasi-disagreement if we're on the same page here?


I don't know? I'm just responding to you. I don't get your argument at all. They clearly did plan on consequences. In one example, they told the victim that she would bleed out slower if she laid down & didn't make noise, which they go on to state was in the hopes that it would prevent her from being noticed.

Yeah, I was scared of things that weren't there as a kid. But that's a really far cry from "Slenderman told me to stab my friend & deliver him to a mansion."

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:39 am
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AssassinB
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Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 215
Lithp wrote:
Quote:
So what's with the quasi-disagreement if we're on the same page here?


I don't know? I'm just responding to you. I don't get your argument at all. They clearly did plan on consequences. In one example, they told the victim that she would bleed out slower if she laid down & didn't make noise, which they go on to state was in the hopes that it would prevent her from being noticed.

Yeah, I was scared of things that weren't there as a kid. But that's a really far cry from "Slenderman told me to stab my friend & deliver him to a mansion."


Alright I guess we just had a communication breakdown then, I'm pretty much on the same page as you OTHER than the fact that my personal opinion is that they didn't have the foresight to understand that no matter what they did they most likely wouldn't get away with it because it's murder, but I believe at this point we're arguing over fine points that aren't really an issue in the first place. The point is that the two girls had a stupid idea, executed it stupidly and after the fact talked to the police in a stupid manner, thus royally fucking themselves because they're 12 and they had no idea what they were doing. I think we can both agree on that point.

And when you were 12 did Slendy exist? Dwell on that a second. Think about the new generation, they're growing up with the things I discovered around 16-17 and I'm 20 now. These girls were 12, this is clearly not the kind of stuff they should be into.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:04 am
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Lithp
I Have No Life


Joined: 04 Mar 2012
Posts: 2058
Quote:
Alright I guess we just had a communication breakdown then, I'm pretty much on the same page as you OTHER than the fact that my personal opinion is that they didn't have the foresight to understand that no matter what they did they most likely wouldn't get away with it because it's murder,


I don't think they'd ever get away with it, nor do I think they'd realize that. Even if they were older, murderers never do seem to get that.

Quote:
but I believe at this point we're arguing over fine points that aren't really an issue in the first place. The point is that the two girls had a stupid idea, executed it stupidly and after the fact talked to the police in a stupid manner, thus royally fucking themselves because they're 12 and they had no idea what they were doing. I think we can both agree on that point.


Fair enough.

Quote:
And when you were 12 did Slendy exist? Dwell on that a second. Think about the new generation, they're growing up with the things I discovered around 16-17 and I'm 20 now. These girls were 12, this is clearly not the kind of stuff they should be into.


I don't think that Marble Hornets or most slenderpastas would be too much for kids. I have a pretty lax attitude towards "exposing kids" to things." If it's too much for them to handle, they'll often avoid it of their own accord. Everything else can be addressed as it comes.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:32 am
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Jsor
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Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Posts: 165

 		I think they were clearly mentally disturbed, but I think the jury's out on whether their insanity was that they were simply sociopaths who concocted a lame excuse; or if they were outright loonies who really believed Tall, Dark, and Faceless was beckoning them to murder someone. The sheer amount of rational planning they did leads me to believe it was the former, but I'm not confident either way.

Cyan507 wrote:

Yeah. Kind of insensitive, really.


Eh, while I'd avoid it in these threads because it upsets some people, I wouldn't call humor after a tragedy "insensitive". It's simply the way some people cope and show sympathy.

Lithp wrote:
I don't think that Marble Hornets or most slenderpastas would be too much for kids. I have a pretty lax attitude towards "exposing kids" to things." If it's too much for them to handle, they'll often avoid it of their own accord. Everything else can be addressed as it comes.


I agree, Marble Hornets (or EMH or anything else) is really nothing compared to your average blockbuster horror film, even the crappy ones. Especially with the hokey acting (sorry Trosephim <3) and low budget. It's certainly not much worse than the campfire stories I heard when I was like, 8.

The most gruesome he gets is that whole "turns your innards into a bloody mist in a foggy forest" thing, and the burning down schools and abducting children part is really abstract (as is the "turning you insane" stuff). I can't see it as being much worse than telling you some crazy ghost woman will eviscerate you if you say her name in front of a mirror 3 times.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:40 am
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Lithp
I Have No Life


Joined: 04 Mar 2012
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Quote:
Eh, while I'd avoid it in these threads because it upsets some people, I wouldn't call humor after a tragedy "insensitive". It's simply the way some people cope and show sympathy.


To me, it kind of depends on the joke. I wasn't offended by whatever was said--I don't remember anymore--but eh, I'm not going to argue about it.

Quote:
I agree, Marble Hornets (or EMH or anything else) is really nothing compared to your average blockbuster horror film, even the crappy ones.


Well, horror movies are, in theory, restricted from kids, so it's not quite the same.

I guess that realism of effects would be a factor, but I was more thinking about the nature of the content. EverymanHYBRID contains explicit references to murder & rape once or twice, & also essentially depicts Evan going nuts & killing his friends. That one I'm a bit iffier on. I wouldn't expect kids to start killing each other after being exposed to it, but it could cause other issues. Like it's kind of hard to be a socially well-adjusted individual if you're afraid that your friends are secretly serial killers.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:00 am
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Cyan507
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Joined: 18 Jun 2012
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Location: Ireland
Lithp wrote:
Blaming the parents really isn't any better. Unless there's an actual article detailing abuse or neglect.


Who are expected to be the responsible ones? The adults or the kids? I can't comment on the girls being trialed as adults but they are still children in the eyes of the law. If the parents aren't due any blame then there needs to be questions asked because this girl was close to death.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:14 am
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Jsor
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Joined: 23 Mar 2011
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Cyan507 wrote:
Lithp wrote:
Blaming the parents really isn't any better. Unless there's an actual article detailing abuse or neglect.


Who are expected to be the responsible ones? The adults or the kids? I can't comment on the girls being trialed as adults but they are still children in the eyes of the law. If the parents aren't due any blame then there needs to be questions asked because this girl was close to death.


Does it have to be anyone's fault?

It's entirely reasonable for parents to not notice an otherwise normal kid planning a murder. Especially since sociopaths are known for maintaining a very convincing veneer of rationality and sanity.

However, the kids are almost certainly mentally disturbed. This wasn't a mafia assassination, or someone killing their cheating spouse in the heat of the moment. Any way the victim could have wronged them in a way that makes this makes sense from the viewpoint that they're sane, rational children exists only in their own minds, which IMO makes it not their fault (albeit still legally culpable).

I don't think we have to blame anyone or burden them with responsibility. As a society, our duty is to make sure this doesn't happen again, whether it means permanent incarceration or rehabilitation.

Now, obviously we don't know all the information. If it turns out the parents were ignoring them torturing small animals or whatever, then sure, the parents probably bear some responsibility. But with the information as given I don't think assigning blame is necessary, productive, or possible.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:21 am
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