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 Forum index » Chaotic Fiction » Marble Hornets
[VIDEO] Entry #86
Moderators: Giskard, JKatkina, Zarggg
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TheManPF
Decorated


Joined: 29 Oct 2012
Posts: 191

 		I gave you three occasions in which Tim referred to Alex as a threat, and that's just from #72 onwards

The only time you can see him actually "offering help" to Alex was in this one, and it could be pretty much just to try to save his own ass

Alex still wanted to kill Tim and continue all of that shit anyways, so he could have easily changed his mind in the very moment he heard that Alex was blaming him for everything and not listening to him

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:14 pm
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Geneaux486
I Have No Life


Joined: 17 Mar 2011
Posts: 2423
TheManPF wrote:

"He gave you the tapes to make him look like the victim rather than the cause." Entry #72, 14 entries ago
"We need to be focusing on finding Alex because he is the one who is actually responsible for all of this." Entry #77, 9 entries ago
"At least three people would still be here if it wasn't for Alex" Entry #84, 2 entries ago
"If Alex didn't have a gun I would have gone after him when his back was turned. I wish I did." "Alex has destroyed everything I have. I don't care what happens to me as long as he is stopped." Entry #85, one entry ago

I don't see your point

You can think that Alex is a victim like everyone else, but Tim clearly does not think the same way


"Alex could be a normal person, you could be living a normal life, so could Jessica, so could everybody else if it wasn't for me." Entry #66
"What if what happened to me is happening to Alex right now?" same entry.
"Well, you heard him talking to Amy on the phone on that tape. Doesn't sound like a killer to me." Entry #72

So I guess we're both right, Tim seems to go back and forth on this. However, his attempts at reasoning with Alex in 86 indicate to me that he's accepted that Alex has been altered like everyone else. Tim obviously knows that this thing warps peoples' minds, there's no other way to see Alex but as a victim in the grand scheme of things.

Quote:
But he does have a point in that it's hard to claim that Alex isn't at fault unless he has no free will in the matter, which does not seem to be the case.


Normally I'd agree, but, like I've said, this is an atypical situation involving an entity that alters the way people think. In order for Alex to truly be at fault, he would have had to have done something to cause this mess before it got its claws in him, of his actual free will, and he didn't.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:16 pm
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Lithp
I Have No Life


Joined: 04 Mar 2012
Posts: 2058

 		Don't really think it matters whether or not it's typical. Alex is the only one who goes on a killing spree. That indicates that he made a choice, coerced though it may have been.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:22 pm
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TheManPF
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Joined: 29 Oct 2012
Posts: 191

 		To the contrary, in this entry Tim just realized that what Alex was doing was all intentional and he was not being manipulated by TO, at least not when he was killing people

Tim never saw Alex as a victim at least from #72 onwards, yes, the quotes you gave indicate Tim saw Alex as a normal person, but that was before TO appeared, and it doesn't mean Tim thinks Alex is not to blame for everything he's been doing

Tim is pretty much sick of all the shit he went through because of Alex's actions, and he also thinks killing people was pointless, so him mocking Alex saying "you missed someone" is not that much of a stretch, it actually fits very well with all the anger Tim has been containing because of Alex

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:24 pm
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Geneaux486
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Joined: 17 Mar 2011
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Lithp wrote:
Don't really think it matters whether or not it's typical. Alex is the only one who goes on a killing spree. That indicates that he made a choice, coerced though it may have been.


That's just it, though. Alex is making a choice after a supernatural and incomprehensible being has been rooting around in his skull, and is constantly standing over his shoulder while he does these things.

Quote:
Tim is pretty much sick of all the shit he went through because of Alex's actions, and he also thinks killing people was pointless, so him mocking Alex saying "you missed someone" is not that much of a stretch, it actually fits very well with all the anger Tim has been containing because of Alex


True enough, I concede the point.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:26 pm
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lonsumtravlr
Entrenched

Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 1009
Location: The Great Continent of New England

 		Re: Who do you think uploaded Entry 86?
Tim. Though I do think that final shot is setting up some kind of appearance or flashback/recap. I was more than half ready for TO to appear to Tim's right over the top of the Benedict Hall stairs.

I really think the only other person involved in all this who's still alive is Jessica. I still don't buy that Entry #76 shows an actual TO abduction.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:38 pm
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Lithp
I Have No Life


Joined: 04 Mar 2012
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Quote:
That's just it, though. Alex is making a choice after a supernatural and incomprehensible being has been rooting around in his skull, and is constantly standing over his shoulder while he does these things.


Also exposed to The Operator: Brian, Tim, Jay, & Jessica. And that's purposefully leaving out anyone who wasn't confirmed to have long term exposure.

When you have 5 people subjected to the same stimulus & 1 starts murdering people, that's probably not something that anyone would do in that circumstance.

The "exposed to it longer" argument also doesn't really work, since Tim had been exposed longer than Alex, Brian for nearly as long, & Jay for just a few years less. Only Jessica had significantly shorter interaction with The Operator than Alex did.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:40 pm
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Marble Hornets
Entrenched


Joined: 29 Apr 2013
Posts: 946
Lithp wrote:
Quote:
That's just it, though. Alex is making a choice after a supernatural and incomprehensible being has been rooting around in his skull, and is constantly standing over his shoulder while he does these things.


Also exposed to The Operator: Brian, Tim, Jay, & Jessica. And that's purposefully leaving out anyone who wasn't confirmed to have long term exposure.

When you have 5 people subjected to the same stimulus & 1 starts murdering people, that's probably not something that anyone would do in that circumstance.

The "exposed to it longer" argument also doesn't really work, since Tim had been exposed longer than Alex, Brian for nearly as long, & Jay for just a few years less. Only Jessica had significantly shorter interaction with The Operator than Alex did.



This

It's ok to admit you're wrong nobody is judging

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:45 pm
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Geneaux486
I Have No Life


Joined: 17 Mar 2011
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Lithp wrote:
Also exposed to The Operator: Brian, Tim, Jay, & Jessica. And that's purposefully leaving out anyone who wasn't confirmed to have long term exposure.

When you have 5 people subjected to the same stimulus & 1 starts murdering people, that's probably not something that anyone would do in that circumstance.


Sure, the effects vary, but they're still just that: effects of the Operator's influence. The series has made it quite clear that Alex was a normal person before the Operator, and that it altered his mind. We've seen what it did to Jay while he was leaving that message to Tim in Rosswood. It didn't make him start killing people, but it did alter his mindset in such a subtle way that, unless we had seen the footage of his original attitude towards Tim and his encounter with the Operator, we'd assume he had always been angry about it. Alex was a normal person. Then he met a supernatural being that can remove memories and alter people's emotions and thoughts, in both obvious ways and in subtle ways, and then he started killing people. It still isn't his fault.

Quote:
It's ok to admit you're wrong nobody is judging


And I have no problem doing so if I'm proven wrong about a particular subject.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:50 pm
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lonsumtravlr
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Joined: 23 Mar 2014
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Location: The Great Continent of New England
Lithp wrote:
Quote:
That's just it, though. Alex is making a choice after a supernatural and incomprehensible being has been rooting around in his skull, and is constantly standing over his shoulder while he does these things.


Also exposed to The Operator: Brian, Tim, Jay, & Jessica. And that's purposefully leaving out anyone who wasn't confirmed to have long term exposure.

When you have 5 people subjected to the same stimulus & 1 starts murdering people, that's probably not something that anyone would do in that circumstance.

The "exposed to it longer" argument also doesn't really work, since Tim had been exposed longer than Alex, Brian for nearly as long, & Jay for just a few years less. Only Jessica had significantly shorter interaction with The Operator than Alex did.


To be fair, Brian and Tim did tag team up and attack Jay and Alex.

But, yeah, even if you accept (and I do) that Alex is a victim, it doesn't get him off the hook.

Still, his death... very sad...

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:03 pm
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lonsumtravlr
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Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 1009
Location: The Great Continent of New England
Geneaux486 wrote:
Lithp wrote:
Also exposed to The Operator: Brian, Tim, Jay, & Jessica. And that's purposefully leaving out anyone who wasn't confirmed to have long term exposure.

When you have 5 people subjected to the same stimulus & 1 starts murdering people, that's probably not something that anyone would do in that circumstance.


Sure, the effects vary, but they're still just that: effects of the Operator's influence. The series has made it quite clear that Alex was a normal person before the Operator, and that it altered his mind. We've seen what it did to Jay while he was leaving that message to Tim in Rosswood. It didn't make him start killing people, but it did alter his mindset in such a subtle way that, unless we had seen the footage of his original attitude towards Tim and his encounter with the Operator, we'd assume he had always been angry about it. Alex was a normal person. Then he met a supernatural being that can remove memories and alter people's emotions and thoughts, in both obvious ways and in subtle ways, and then he started killing people. It still isn't his fault.

Quote:
It's ok to admit you're wrong nobody is judging


And I have no problem doing so if I'm proven wrong about a particular subject.


The series seems to have made clear that TO can be contained without ending anyone's life. There isn't proof that Alex was told to kill everyone by TO. He killed them to try to stop an outbreak, and TO tagged along to clean up the bodies for whatever outlandish purpose it has. Jay was apparently able to lead a normal post-TO life until he started watching the tapes from the doomed MH project. Even so, he never became a crazed killer--the closest he came was doing a complete 180 on repenting having tackled Tim and forcibly taken the tape containing Entry #76 away. And he was like an addict with the camera, too. But after all that, he seemed to have gotten over his rage. Alex, though--even if TO's increasing his killer rage quotient, he's had evidence that TO can be stopped, and yet he continues on, not out of any sort of love for or allegiance to TO. He becomes so completely driven on that end goal of stopping the contagion that he thinks there's no turning back.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:09 pm
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Marble Hornets
Entrenched


Joined: 29 Apr 2013
Posts: 946
Geneaux486 wrote:
Lithp wrote:
Also exposed to The Operator: Brian, Tim, Jay, & Jessica. And that's purposefully leaving out anyone who wasn't confirmed to have long term exposure.

When you have 5 people subjected to the same stimulus & 1 starts murdering people, that's probably not something that anyone would do in that circumstance.


Sure, the effects vary, but they're still just that: effects of the Operator's influence. The series has made it quite clear that Alex was a normal person before the Operator, and that it altered his mind. We've seen what it did to Jay while he was leaving that message to Tim in Rosswood. It didn't make him start killing people, but it did alter his mindset in such a subtle way that, unless we had seen the footage of his original attitude towards Tim and his encounter with the Operator, we'd assume he had always been angry about it. Alex was a normal person. Then he met a supernatural being that can remove memories and alter people's emotions and thoughts, in both obvious ways and in subtle ways, and then he started killing people. It still isn't his fault.


Yeah, Alex went from being sane to angry and paranoid, naturally that would happen if you're losing your memory and being stalked on a regular basis. There is zero proof in the series that the operator makes people do things against their will. You're making things up. If the operator could make people do things, we'd have hard evidence of it

Quote:
It's ok to admit you're wrong nobody is judging


And I have no problem doing so if I'm proven wrong about a particular subject.


Apparently you do

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:12 pm
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Geneaux486
I Have No Life


Joined: 17 Mar 2011
Posts: 2423
lonsumtravlr wrote:
The series seems to have made clear that TO can be contained without ending anyone's life.


Ignored and forgotten about, maybe, but I don't think it was ever contained. Look at how quickly the simple act of Alex's girlfriend waving a camera around brought the thing back in full force. That's not freedom, nor anything resembling a solution. It's denial, and the end result wound up being the same.

Quote:
There isn't proof that Alex was told to kill everyone by TO.


I don't think the Operator tells anyone to do anything, but it does compel people to violence. For whatever reason, it thrives on the chaos. Tim said it himself "You're not containing it, you're feeding it!". Alex was clearly trying to rationalize his behavior, so as to convince himself that he was still in control, but I think the evidence presented by the series clearly suggests that he hadn't been in control for years.

Quote:
Yeah, Alex went from being sane to angry and paranoid, naturally that would happen if you're losing your memory and being stalked on a regular basis. There is zero proof in the series that the operator makes people do things against their will. You're making things up.


He alters people's minds to make them do things they wouldn't otherwise do. I'm not making that up, it's been clearly depicted in the show. We saw it with Jay, and we saw it with Alex.

Quote:
Apparently you do


You're basically arguing with the series, not me.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:14 pm
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Marble Hornets
Entrenched


Joined: 29 Apr 2013
Posts: 946

 		"I didn't want to have to kill you Jessica, but Jay got you involved" (paraphrasing) - same kind of idea for entry 52

How is that the operator FORCING alex to do anything? If it was a force, Alex would have kept quiet and just pulled the trigger. If it was forced, Alex would shoot Brian in the face in broad daylight. Instead he takes them to secluded areas so that he doesn't get caught doing it. It's self awareness dude.

When you argue back, make sure to include specifics. Not generalizations like "we've seen this in the series" - give concrete examples

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:18 pm
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Geneaux486
I Have No Life


Joined: 17 Mar 2011
Posts: 2423
Marble Hornets wrote:
When you argue back, make sure to include specifics. Not generalizations like "we've seen this in the series" - give concrete examples


I did. You've ignored them. I'm not saying the Operator physically forced Alex to kill people, I'm saying the Operator altered Alex's mind so that he was capable of doing/compelled to do these things. Like I said, he attempts to rationalize his actions, so he doesn't have to admit that he's under its control, but the fact remains that he is. He was a normal person before he met that thing, and now he's a violent murderer because of it.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:21 pm
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