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Forum index » Chaotic Fiction » Marble Hornets

Dumbest theories thread
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Lithp
I Have No Life

Joined: 04 Mar 2012
Posts: 2058

Quote:

Yes, I realize why it's tempting to call an unanswered question a plot hole, and I'm not sure what the better term would be either. But I'm not sure it's quite correct.

Well, I'm pretty sure, & even if it's not, calling it that is still the most practical solution.

Quote:

There are nonetheless plot holes in MH, though I would say a lot of them are comparatively minor.

I'd say that Marble Hornets is pretty bad for plot holes, but the bigger problem is that they're so glaring. The reason why people don't like plot holes is because it kills the suspension of disbelief.

Quote:

Most of this is speculation on my part, but it's all possible within the established lore.

If you have to speculate, then the information is not filled in.

Quote:

He's crazy, we've seen every character that's suffered from the Operator experience irrational behavior. Brian chasing after something that didn't really exist isn't a plot hole.

This isn't the catch-all excuse that people think that it is, because insanity is still a plot device & so it still needs to have some kind of consistency. You could have no explanation at all, say "they just decided to act that way," & it would make about as much sense. It's bad enough that the "insanity" varies so wildly between characters, but what's even worse is how badly it varies within Hoody alone. We're resorting to "irrationality" to explain his behavior, but that "irrationality" conveniently doesn't seem to get in the way of his ninja chessmaster shtick.

The same goes for "Operator manipulation," "magic," or any other convenient-yet-poorly-explained catch-all excuse for inconsistency.

Quote:

In short, these things would only be plot holes if we fully understood the nature of the Operator and its effects, and these things then directly contradicted a set of rules in the canon.

The notion here seems to be that, if I have enough gaps in my story, technically nothing "contradicts," & therefore

That strikes me as arguing that killing a patient counts as curing their illness. Nothing "contradicts" because there aren't enough points to string together into a cohesive, logical explanation in the 1st place.

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:09 am

Geneaux486
I Have No Life

Joined: 17 Mar 2011
Posts: 2423

Quote:

If you have to speculate, then the information is not filled in.

Which isn't a bad thing in and of itself.

Quote:

It's bad enough that the "insanity" varies so wildly between characters

That's kind of how insanity works. It varies wildly in real life, too. Thing is, there is a consistency in Marble Hornets. Paranoia, irrationality, violence, all of the characters exhibited these things to varying degrees.

Quote:

that "irrationality" conveniently doesn't seem to get in the way of his ninja chessmaster shtick.

But if you do away with the idea that Brian had a solid plan and knew what was going on (which he didn't in the end), then really he was just a crazy guy who stole people's medicine, filmed people, and basically just acted like he was working some big angle when all he was really doing was keeping the conflict going.

Quote:

The notion here seems to be that, if I have enough gaps in my story, technically nothing "contradicts," & therefore

This requires that I take it for granted that Marble Hornets *needed* to explain everything, or that there was some expectation that it would. It was a story about crazy paranormal stuff told through the perspective of a bunch of people who had no idea what the hell was going on. I don't see how they could have explained everything and had it be done in a believable way. They did answer some questions, and they gave us enough to speculate on others. But yes, if certain moments don't contradict established lore (even if it's because it deals with a part of the lore that hasn't been established), then it isn't a plot hole.

Quote:

Nothing "contradicts" because there aren't enough points to string together into a cohesive, logical explanation in the 1st place.

We are able to do that. We're given more information than people seem willing to acknowledge, it just isn't conveyed to us directly.

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:25 am

Xman
Decorated

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 280

Geneaux486 wrote:

So basically, the premise is that Brian was just a crazy guy in the end with no real plan? I'm sorry, but does anyone think that's cool? That's so boring and uninteresting to me.

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:23 am

ReverendJ
Unfettered

Joined: 04 Aug 2011
Posts: 558

I like it, seems logical.

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:24 am

og1764
Boot

Joined: 06 Dec 2013
Posts: 59
Location: Australia

TheJoker wrote:

Well, there's also TV Trope's definition:

Quote:

Plot holes can come in many forms:
-Characters suddenly having knowledge that was never passed to them, or vice versa; characters not knowing something they knew last week, or something that anyone in their position must know.
-An event does not logically follow from what has gone before.
-Characters ignoring or avoiding obvious solutions to their problems.
-An event occurring that other events in the work simply do not allow.

Other stuff.

So is Jay a "plot-hole" by this definition?
Or are we just going to believe that he's a bit... not all there? I know he was developed that way... sorta. Especially near the end of the series when he was getting screwed around by TO. And I know it's hard for us, OOG, with our limited knowledge to know what's going on with him, but he has ignored fairly obvious solutions before... Also, when did TTA stop being important? I know that Trosephim decided that we were too dumb for his codes and stopped posting them, and after hoody died well.. yeah... but it was acknowledged by Jay at the start, in Series 1 i'm pretty sure, and then seemed to be forgotten about....

Anyway, rambling.
tl;dr, by the bolded definition, is Jay technically a "plot-hole"?

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:53 am

Lithp
I Have No Life

Joined: 04 Mar 2012
Posts: 2058

Xman wrote:

Geneaux486 wrote:

So basically, the premise is that Brian was just a crazy guy in the end with no real plan? I'm sorry, but does anyone think that's cool? That's so boring and uninteresting to me.

Not only that, it's ridiculous, because "he's crazy" when they don't want to explain anything, but it conveniently doesn't affect his competence when they need him to leave clues or spy on Jay.

Laser Guided Crazy is basically confirmed, but it's still a lazily written plot device. You might as well say, "People do weird things" & not even attempt any kind of character consistency.

Quote:

tl;dr, by the bolded definition, is Jay technically a "plot-hole"?

I would say, "No," because it was basically confirmed in the AMA that his stupidity was a character trait, & also implied that the Operatorsickness was impairing his thinking, though that last part teeters on the edge of that Laser Guided Crazy bullshit.

These things would mean that Jay's behavior follows logically from what we know about him.

That's also a difficult criterion to apply. It's mainly useful for when something is so pertinent but is bizarrely avoided, or they do or think something just so incredibly stupid that there's no way anyone in that position would do that.

Examples, with obvious spoilers:

For the former, in "Legend of Korra," which is the sequel to "Avatar the Last Airbender" if anyone is unfamiliar, Korra recently lost her connection to her past lives. However, there's a relatively easily accessible tree in the Spirit World that can replay any event from any time, & it's not explained why she doesn't simply go there whenever she needs to know something from her past lives.

For the latter, the Captains in "Bleach" recently decided that it was a good idea to stage a rigged fight between 2 of their strongest members to power up the strongest. That doesn't sound so bad, except the plan is to let the 2nd strongest die, & the strongest ONLY has strength going for him, while the 2nd strongest is much more intelligent, versatile, & also the best healer. At least on some level, even the author himself seems to realize how stupid this is, because the Captain that they powered up was incapacitated after his 1st battle, screwing them over. If only they had someone else who could fight, or at least heal him...anyway, there are so many obvious flaws in this plan that, while a layperson may fall for that stupid logic, it's completely unreasonable to believe that a military force in a time of crisis would think it's a good idea to cripple themselves in the hopes that an increase in the raw power of 1 branch will win the war for them.

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:14 am

lonsumtravlr
Entrenched

Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 1009
Location: The Great Continent of New England

Lithp wrote:

With all due respect, I don't think "he's crazy" is as lazy as you say. I understand (I think) why you're arguing this: You were hoping for some sort of depth behind the codes and expressionistic videos, etc., and when you read Trosephim saying, "Well, Brian got a little insane," you're let down. But there's the kind of crazy of someone wandering around the park and downtown with his big conspiracy ideas of who did what to him and who owes him what, and then there's the kind of crazy that comes from being completely fucked over and traumatized and getting insight into some kinda truth and not being able to handle it other than to try to set into motion some sort of plan that will bring about "justice" as you see it. The line's fine between crazy guy diving into dumpsters and crazy Ahab bent on justice because a particular type of dumpster took his leg and so he's getting back at all of that type of dumpster. Both have some sort of gripe, but the latter has one that's rooted in reality, even if that reality's distorted and interpreted in an idiosyncratic way. Particularly in the IG context of Marble Hornets (in which something really did happen to Brian and to others), it takes on an almost cosmically ironic significance.

It doesn't absolve the series of its problems or mean that Brian being Hoody being ToTheArk was perfectly handled (I like Entries #83 and #84, but they could have come earlier and worked into the story better, fleshing out some aspects of the story more while Trosephim could have kept the ending they'd long ago written). But I don't see how the TTA videos and Hoody being such a bizarre antagonist are examples of laziness just because the creators confirmed that Brian, the character behind them, was batshit. When you equate this with saying "People do weird things," it's almost as if you're making some sort of backhanded or even subconscious slam either that the trio's just being arbitrary in their writing or that IG everything's arbitrary. I don't see evidence of either.

I'm also not saying that there arent' poorly executed examples of Laser Guided Crazy, or that Laser Guided Crazy can't be about as convenient as a deus ex machina. I am just saying that I don't think this is one example of either.

Also, can I just say that getting Oppynapped and Slendywiped may have been just the existential crisis that Brian needed to help him make the most of his film school training. He finally found his auterial "voice." Too bad he won't be around to see whether he's nominated for a Lifetime Achievement Streamy.

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:20 pm

Lithp
I Have No Life

Joined: 04 Mar 2012
Posts: 2058

Quote:

That's part of it, but there are other things. First, I immensely hate this myth that "crazy" is some mystical transcendent state that's beyond anyone's comprehension. We've been studying "crazy" since the 1930's & have made pretty good progress, especially when there are biological factors involved. To that end, there are 2 ways to solve the consistency problem:

1. Use actual mental illnesses in their proper contexts, or at least close enough that it's plausible.

2. Just suck it up, create some rules for the Imaginary Mental Illness, clearly define them in the plot, & make sure they're consistently applied.

And just do whichever can actually be accomplished.

Quote:

When you equate this with saying "People do weird things," it's almost as if you're making some sort of backhanded or even subconscious slam either that the trio's just being arbitrary in their writing

I am pretty directly saying that the plot was terribly written for a lot of reasons, including that. Dialogue/characters/atmosphere all passable, but plot...no.

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:35 pm

lonsumtravlr
Entrenched

Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 1009
Location: The Great Continent of New England

Lithp wrote:

We're really not that far apart on this. They obviously went with Option 2, and it could have been handled better. The pills were introduced in Season 1. Why wait until very, very, very late in Season 2 to make Tim's illness a part of the plot again, AND THEN wait till Entries #69-74 to bring the pills back and show that Hoody needed them too? It really coulda been better handled in seasons one and two (especially since Tim was shown in Entry #20, I think, with a prescription bottle). This was, in my opinion, the one "rule" that shoulda been established earlier. We also coulda had confirmation to the audience but not to the other characters of Brian as Hoody as TTA come before "Null" and had it still be an in-game mystery (for all the trio talks about admiring David Lynch, they coulda taken a page from his playbook, because the reveal of Laura Palmer's murderer, along with being one of the finest things committed to video [and written and directed by Lynch], was perfectly placed in the series--this is venturing on spoiler territory, so I'll stop typing this point now). That would have made Entry #84 more effective and, really, far, far, far more poignant. We woulda known and woulda seen the tragedy not only of Brian having become vengeful Hoody but also of Tim trying to be stoic in finding out what had happened to his one-time best friend. We woulda felt it more. (I don't think it's that the reveal was bad--I think it was badly handled in some respects.)

As for mental illness being a "mystical transcendent" thing--not only is your estimation spot on about so much fiction in general, but also I'm glad that I'm not the only one occasionally trying to integrate school words into these posts.

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:51 am

Lithp
I Have No Life

Joined: 04 Mar 2012
Posts: 2058

Quote:

We also coulda had confirmation to the audience but not to the other characters of Brian as Hoody as TTA come before "Null" and had it still be an in-game mystery

I agree with everything up to this point. This part I don't understand.

To backtrack slightly, you're right that there was an attempt to create a consistent "type of crazy," but that it wasn't always handled that well. If Jay & Alex had developed masked personas at some point, I think it would have been clear to everyone that it's the end result of Operatorsickness. As it stands, they're the odd ducks out. There's no explanation for why Jay didn't start down that path before Tim started feeding him pills & Alex just seems to act totally contradictory to it. His "Totheark symptoms" are much less pronounced, but he's way more violent. How does this work, especially when The Operator supposedly gets off on violence?

Quote:

As for mental illness being a "mystical transcendent" thing--not only is your estimation spot on about so much fiction in general, but also I'm glad that I'm not the only one occasionally trying to integrate school words into these posts.

I'd like to credit education because it makes me sound like much less of a nerd, but I think I've been using "transcendent" so much because of Bleach & I thought of "mystical" because the Crazy Card reminds me a lot of the justification that A Wizard Did It.

"Mental illness," though, that's probably something I started using because of psychology classes.

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:32 pm

Geneaux486
I Have No Life

Joined: 17 Mar 2011
Posts: 2423

Editing my post because upon reflection, I don't feel that I was justified in being a smartass about it, but I genuinely don't understand what the problem is with Brian being crazy. His behavioral patterns match up with Operator-sickness as we understand it. No two characters exhibit the exact same behavior (and trying to establish a solid set of rules for insanity would be crazy), but for all of them paranoia, erratic behavior, and tendencies toward violence are factors.

Yeah, it seemed like Brian had some kind of master plan before we found out that he didn't. He left clues that Jessica was still alive, where Alex might be, etc, and the stuff he actually set in motion did come to fruition. He kept the conflict going, same as Alex did when he inexplicably gave Jay most of his tapes instead of burning them. Ultimately I think the totheark videos, from a story-telling standpoint, were just a window into the mind of a crazy person, and the fate that awaits anyone who can't deal with the Operator.

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:38 pm

lonsumtravlr
Entrenched

Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 1009
Location: The Great Continent of New England

Lithp wrote:

me wrote:

We also coulda had confirmation to the audience but not to the other characters of Brian as Hoody as TTA come before "Null" and had it still be an in-game mystery

I agree with everything up to this point. This part I don't understand.

Yeah, I temporarily forgot that we were discussing a found footage series with a degree of interactivity between the in-series and out-of-series worlds. My point was that the Brian's Hoody! reveal they chose would have worked far, far, far better in a paranormal mystery show in which one of the mysterious figures has his identity revealed to the guessing audience before he has it revealed to the in-series protagonists. But you can't do that when the one in-series character creates social media accounts that exist both in-series and out-of-series, the mysterious character responds to and hacks both, and the other in-series characters read them, now, can you? You'd get a vlog response in which Tim and (if it was before he was killed, Jay) discuss their shock. On TV or as a YouTube series with no interactivity and fourth-wall penetrating, it could be done well. For an example of what I mean--and if you haven't watched Twin Peaks this is a MASSIVE DOUBLE spoiler!!!!!!!--go on YouTube and search for

Spoiler (Rollover to View):

"Laura Palmer Killer" and then "death of Leland." David Lynch wrote and directed the former scene, and it's brilliant. Someone else did the second, but it wraps up the arc (while creating the potential for a new one) in the way that Entry #84 I think was supposed to. They were several episodes apart, but the former and what followed clearly set up the tragectory toward the latter

Quote:

To backtrack slightly, you're right that there was an attempt to create a consistent "type of crazy," but that it wasn't always handled that well. If Jay & Alex had developed masked personas at some point, I think it would have been clear to everyone that it's the end result of Operatorsickness. As it stands, they're the odd ducks out. There's no explanation for why Jay didn't start down that path before Tim started feeding him pills & Alex just seems to act totally contradictory to it. His "Totheark symptoms" are much less pronounced, but he's way more violent. How does this work, especially when The Operator supposedly gets off on violence?

I think they left the door way too open for us to speculate that Jay may have been acting that way on his own when we don't see him onscreen. There was the discarded plot avenue of Jay being exposed to TO and having the latter slendywalk right by him. Then there's Tim/Masky's apparent abduction of Jay, Jay disappearing from his apartment for hours with no footage showing him leaving... It inspired a lot of crazy theories (Hoody as Future Jay, Hoody as Alternate Reality Jay).

I still don't think the mental illness issue is quite as problematic as you do, or that "Brian's crazy" is such a big deal--I'm still holding out my belief that there is more in the entries that wasn't expressed verbally here. But we're in agreement that his condition in particular could have been much better done. Definitely.

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:59 pm

lonsumtravlr
Entrenched

Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 1009
Location: The Great Continent of New England

Geneaux486 wrote:

I think that the problem, or part of it, is that not everyone's convinced that the mental illness was established in a convincing enough way, and so that without seeing these supposed connections that are "out there," it seems like smoke being blown up everyone's ass, Cult Hit! Inspired others! Buy my dog stickers! and so forth.

I buy the mental illness for Brian. I think he was so profoundly transformed by the experience of his friend setting him up to be killed and then abducted by TO, which didn't take at first, that mentally, spiritually, and biochemically he was bent on some sort of justice and came up with this big explanation for The Ark (which was some sort of grand end, fine, OK). In Brian's mind, the experience and everyone and thing involved was invested with a cosmic significance. he's either, as I've posted before (and I wish this were my own contribution, but it's not), Ahab gunning for the White Whale or Sy the Photo Guy from One Hour Photo--if you haven't seen that, man, it's great cinematically and also as it goes to demonstrate what I'm saying here. Mental illness, etc., isn't a transcendent crutch for the writer to lean on to get out of explaining things. It's a device that offers some insight into the world of a character who for some reason has in his own mind become almost like a knight on a significant errand.

My problem, as I've responded to Lithp I think on another thread earlier today, is not with this--I think this was done well. I think they waited too long to set up Tim's backstory and problem and also could have brought a little more of the possibility of Jay having a "Masky" life. I thought Brian was handled well or at least well enough (though I think that if they could have had an earlier reveal it would have helped). I also liked how Alex himself was handled.

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:36 pm

lonsumtravlr
Entrenched

Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 1009
Location: The Great Continent of New England

Geneaux486 wrote:

Yeah, it seemed like Brian had some kind of master plan before we found out that he didn't. He left clues that Jessica was still alive, where Alex might be, etc, and the stuff he actually set in motion did come to fruition. He kept the conflict going, same as Alex did when he inexplicably gave Jay most of his tapes instead of burning them. Ultimately I think the totheark videos, from a story-telling standpoint, were just a window into the mind of a crazy person, and the fate that awaits anyone who can't deal with the Operator.

Yeah--he had some sort of master plan that was obvious to him and that he seemed to think should have been obvious to others involved (despite his feeling the need to encode some of it). In this sense, I don't think that the TTA videos were "just" a window into a crazy mind. They had significance enough to Brian himself. But they did include at least some clues, etc.

About Jessica, though--Jay made the point that TTA never seemed to have original footage of her other than what was in Jay's entries. Yet TTA had that tape that was purportedly planted on Tim in Entry #62. That's not a plot hole, but it is strange. Unless Tim really came up with that tape? But why would he fabricate such a thing? To throw off Jay until a possibly safe time and to get him pumped to find Alex? There likely wouldn't ever have been a safe time, and it had the opposite effect, if only for a brief while. It's maddening, just a bit, trying to wrap one's brain around it..

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:41 pm

Lithp
I Have No Life

Joined: 04 Mar 2012
Posts: 2058

It also sort of helps that I've actually had a crazy man yelling at me over the internet, so I sort of know what it looks like. Look up Dennis Marzuke/Dave Mabus.

I'm sort of losing track of this conversation, so I'm not sure if I mentioned it or not, but Brian's delusion, in & of itself, could be interesting to explore & give insight into what makes Brian Hoody*.

*=Bet that's his full name.

Quote:

My problem, as I've responded to Lithp I think on another thread earlier today, is not with this--I think this was done well. I think they waited too long to set up Tim's backstory and problem and also could have brought a little more of the possibility of Jay having a "Masky" life. I thought Brian was handled well or at least well enough (though I think that if they could have had an earlier reveal it would have helped). I also liked how Alex himself was handled.

I don't remember, but I mostly agree with this.

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:00 pm

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