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 Forum index » Chaotic Fiction » Marble Hornets
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420Goku
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Joined: 19 Sep 2013
Posts: 109
Lithp wrote:
Yeah, after Jay started questioning him about it. That's not a contrived coincidence, Tim actually had a reason to suddenly look it up. Jay suddenly bumping into Tim might have been, though.


We're talking about a militant hobo whose only life goal, seemingly, was to murder Alex. He had all the reason in the world to be googling stuff about him. And just to point out even more reason for it not to be weird for them to randomly find MH, slender man is a massive meme and has been since 2009. Brian or Tim see slender man online, recognize him, do some research, easily find marble hornets listed somewhere, recognize that name, see Alex, and boom. I mean seriously, this is not a hard plotpoint to imagine happening. There are SO many other parts of season 1 you could dissect and find "lazy" and "illogical" I have no idea why you're using this. A lot of season 1 wasn't about story, it was about spooky atmosphere, feelings of paranoia, etc. I mean it really was just a part of the whole "photoshopped picture of slender man with caption" thing. It's not a masterpiece it's just supposed to be spooky.

Quote:
"I can empathize with you because I have this memory loss which you don't reference & have encounters with this monster that I don't remember but you seem to, which could easily entirely change your outlook on events."


I have no idea where it's implied Alex remembers encounters with TO. I think you're just making that up.

edit: remembers encounters anymore than Tim does, I mean.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:53 pm
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Blackout_2014
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DHawk314 wrote:
Okay, I've gotten tired of talking about this again, so here's what I really think. I've been with the series since season 2 barely began. Back then, we really didn't know what was going on. There was hardly a structured plot. We know a shit ton more about pretty much everything since then, so I think the idea that "almost nothing was answered" it completely absurd. The stuff that wasn't answered I don't think needed to be. If you honestly thought "How did totheark find Jay's channel" was gonna be answered then you were deluding yourself. And I told people towards the end that they weren't going to go too in depth about Hoody's motives. They went way in depth about how the Operator had changed Tim and Alex, and Hoody's symptoms are really just an amalgamation of their's.

He's clearly a guy being stalked by the Operator trying to kill Alex. If you watched the series with any amount of detail that was clear as day. Him being Brian, who Alex led to the Operator in an attempt to kill him, makes perfect sense, and I literally told people they were probably just going to reveal it was Brian and not go too much further. And I was right.

So what does me being right about that signify? To me, it signifies that what unFiction always wanted from Marble Hornets was never anything Marble Hornets actually was. I always liked Marble Hornets. I thought Marble Hornets was really scary. I thought the characters of Alex, Jay, and Tim were fascinating and I think the way their arcs converged was excellent. And once again, the idea that by the end of Season 3 we didn't no more than we did before Season 3 is just ridiculous, and it really forgets how little we knew about anything back then. So many gaps have been filled in.

And a lot of the questions were answered implicitly. You have to be paying attention. But that also falls under the category of me knowing what the nature of the series actually was from the start; I knew it was going to be this way. Here's the thing: I loved it. I loved it when I first watched it and I knew it was going to be that way, and I always thought that the way it was was actually really cool. It's obviously not for everyone, and that was always obvious, no matter which way you actually thought it was going to go.

People have been listing off unanswered questions since Season 2 and I've been telling people their lists had things that either didn't need to be answered in this kind of series, or were already answered and they didn't catch it. But forget about all of that bullshit. Because I don't care if you didn't like it. If you didn't like it, I totally respect that opinion. Seriously, if you didn't like Marble Hornets, that doesn't make me lose any respect for you.

Here's my actual problem, here's what I actually think: Everyone who didn't like the series is really condescending about it and I'm really fucking sick of it. Everyone who didn't like it acts like their opinion is objectively correct. If you read my above paragraphs and thought "Wow his opinion about the nature of the series was kind of condescending," understand, that's how people who didn't like it have been coming off every since it ended, except to the like tenth power.

I did not "like the series because my standards were lower." If one more person tells me I liked it because I have lower standards then I'm going to pee on everything that person likes. The plot structure was unconventional, answering questions implicitly, keeping things mysterious while still advancing the plot and basically answering the big things. By Season 2, it sort of became a character driven plot, bringing characters like Tim or Alex, and even occasionally Brian to the forefront to implicitly show what was going on with them, while still having a sense that some mysterious malevolent phenomenon was in the background.

I didn't like the series in spite of the weird plot because my standards were lower, I liked the series because of the weird plot structure, and that's what I've liked about it since I first marathoned the first season 3 years ago. I've marathoned the whole thing twice since it ended, once by myself, and once with friends, and both times I thought it was scary, and both times I thought it was interesting, and both times I thought the character arcs were excellent. It ended exactly in the manner I thought it would, because that was the manner I always thought it should.

And let me reiterate: I have no disrespect for people who didn't like the series, or the ending, or anything else about it, at all. The point I've been trying to make up until now is that it wasn't disappointing to you because Troy, Joseph, and Tim made mistakes, it was disappointing because they weren't ever trying to do what you thought they were trying to do with the series, and personally, I think what they did with it was fucking great.

But that's not the point I'm trying to make now. Now, my only point is this: you know that respect I show you despite your disagreement with me about the series? I really want you all to show me and everyone else who liked it at least one tenth of that respect for our opinions, and not just treat them like their objectively falser than your's, and like we have lower standards, and like we just don't understand how stories are "supposed to be," because I am literally just so fucking tired of having conversations like that here.


TL;DR

Kidding, kidding. Very Happy

I like the series, I just wanted the ToTheArk part to be more than what it actually was. It's become really clear that to the creators it was just a lark. And I'll admit I was frustrated by that, but I've pretty much gotten over it.

I look forward to their next series and hopefully they will use Marble Hornets as a learning experience and make a better series.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:00 pm
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Blackout_2014
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Quote:

We're talking about a militant hobo whose only life goal, seemingly, was to murder Alex.


I guess if you look at it that way who was worse at killing people? Hoody or Alex?

At least Alex made a few notches in the belt.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:03 pm
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420Goku
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Joined: 19 Sep 2013
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Blackout_2014 wrote:
Quote:

We're talking about a militant hobo whose only life goal, seemingly, was to murder Alex.


I guess if you look at it that way who was worse at killing people? Hoody or Alex?

At least Alex made a few notches in the belt.


Hey, Hoody didn't have an eldritch abomination on his side ;p

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:10 pm
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DHawk314
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Joined: 17 May 2011
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 		Yeah, and I admit the series had problems, but I think a lot of those originate from it beginning as a virtually plotless video version of Slender Man pictures for the SA forums made during a boring summer, and then spinning out of control, forcing them to work around those things. You can argue about like, how did totheark find Jay's channel, like people are up there, but that's something that happened 9 entries in. I came to terms with the idea that that would cause certain disorganizations a really long time ago. Also, I feel like someone who watched everything now would never wonder that, only people actually looking for criticisms would even notice that.

And going off them leaning from their mistakes, I think in the next series they'll know what they're doing from the start, and I agree that I hope they improve from that.

Hoody was only trying to kill one dude and he got 0/1. But then he arranged Alex's death, so I guess it's more like .5/1. Alex killed five people but he was only trying to kill four of them, and he totally failed at killing Tim, and Brian, and Jessica. Then again Tim killed Brian too early, so it's more like 4/6, having totally missed Tim and Jessica.

I think the really egregious thing is how many times Alex seemingly tried to kill people, and failed. Actually, the really bad part is that he seemed to actually believe he'd killed Tim, Brian, Jay, and Jessica for some time, but was totally wrong. Now that's real ineptitude.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:13 pm
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Blackout_2014
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Quote:
Hoody was only trying to kill one dude and he got 0/1. But then he arranged Alex's death, so I guess it's more like .5/1. Alex killed five people but he was only trying to kill four of them, and he totally failed at killing Tim, and Brian, and Jessica. Then again Tim killed Brian too early, so it's more like 4/6, having totally missed Tim and Jessica.


He also set up Jay's death so maybe 1.5/2?

Quote:
I think the really egregious thing is how many times Alex seemingly tried to kill people, and failed. Actually, the really bad part is that he seemed to actually believe he'd killed Tim, Brian, Jay, and Jessica for some time, but was totally wrong. Now that's real ineptitude.


I always just chalked that up to Operator influence. Given how the Operator was left ambiguous maybe the operator planted it in his head that he succeeded?

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:11 pm
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ReverendJ
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 		I don't think Hoody wanted Alex to kill Jay. I think he wanted Jay to kill Alex and Alex got loose and took his gun and Hoody just ran around like a crazy hobo not willing to run too far from Alex.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:55 pm
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Lithp
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Joined: 04 Mar 2012
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Quote:
And just to point out even more reason for it not to be weird for them to randomly find MH, slender man is a massive meme and has been since 2009.


Too bad that's not canon to Marble Hornets.

Quote:
I mean seriously, this is not a hard plotpoint to imagine happening.


Then why didn't Trosephim simply think it up & put it into the script? Not even a simple Tweet, like, "You know, I found MH with Google, so maybe they just did that." At least SOME kind of effort at an explanation.

Quote:
There are SO many other parts of season 1 you could dissect and find "lazy" and "illogical" I have no idea why you're using this.


Because it is the thing that we happen to be talking about right now. Yes, Marble Hornets has a lot of problems in its writing, that's what I've been saying. And it's not just Season 1.

Quote:
I have no idea where it's implied Alex remembers encounters with TO. I think you're just making that up.


A. It's not suggested that he doesn't.

B. Can't keep going on a killing spree if you don't remember that you're supposed to be killing those people.

Quote:
Yeah, and I admit the series had problems, but I think a lot of those originate from it beginning as a virtually plotless video version of Slender Man pictures for the SA forums made during a boring summer, and then spinning out of control, forcing them to work around those things.


I really don't think that should have even mattered in the long run. Having to rely on having everything planned out in advance is arguably a bigger problem than going in without a plan in the 1st place.

Quote:
Also, I feel like someone who watched everything now would never wonder that, only people actually looking for criticisms would even notice that.


I don't know if you're talking about my thing or Alex's kill record, but both are quite noticeable to me, along with many other odd plot contrivances & unanswered questions, particularly because the story didn't give me much else to focus on to distract me from that shit.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:15 pm
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420Goku
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Lithp wrote:
Too bad that's not canon to Marble Hornets.


how so

Quote:
Then why didn't Trosephim simply think it up & put it into the script? Not even a simple Tweet, like, "You know, I found MH with Google, so maybe they just did that." At least SOME kind of effort at an explanation.


that'd be such a stupid and irrelevant thing to do.

Quote:
A. It's not suggested that he doesn't.


All the recording himself is supposed to be for if he can't remember. Clearly he can remember big things like he's supposed to be killing people, it's the events that he can't remember.

Biggest single thing of evidence for this: entry 29

Quote:
Having to rely on having everything planned out in advance is arguably a bigger problem than going in without a plan in the 1st place.


wtf are you even saying. like that's not even what he was really talking about

TBH I think you're just arguing for the sake of it and trying to find stuff to dislike for the sake of it instead of just watching the series again and seeing what you actually like and dislike. because you've proven before your knowledge of the plot isn't very good and you always argue about really weird and irrelevant things. I wouldn't really even be pointing it out or being mean about it if that wasn't the whole state of this forum right now.

EDIT: also, like

Quote:
Because it is the thing that we happen to be talking about right now.


didn't you bring this up man? this is what Im talking about. why even say something like that when YOU brought it up and are the one pressing the argument. makes me think I"m just getting trolled.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:08 pm
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DHawk314
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Joined: 17 May 2011
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 		It is canon to MH, if you read the original SA post by Jay you'd know that Jay did know about the Slender Man meme on SA before he began. Anyways, I'm talking about the how did totheark find the channel thing. You're grasping at straws for plot holes if you think that's important. Personally, I don't think they did need to rely in everything being planned out in the long term, I think the series was good, I'm just saying pretty much all if your nitpicks can be traced to it not being planned out in the long term.

I don't know what you're trying to do at this point. Do you feel like people have minimized your opinion that the ending is bad, and you're defending yourself? Or are you just dead set on everyone agreeing with you that your complaints are actually important? I get that you didn't like the ending, but it seems like ever since you decided you didn't, you've been trying to find evidence "proving" you must be right that it's bad. If you didn't like it, that's an opinion, and it's a broad feeling, and it is fine to have. But seriously? totheark finding Jay's channel? That can't actually have anything to do with it, does it? It seems like your just desperate for justifying your completely subjective viewpoint with some kind of proof.

Lithp wrote:
I don't know if you're talking about my thing or Alex's kill record, but both are quite noticeable to me, along with many other odd plot contrivances & unanswered questions, particularly because the story didn't give me much else to focus on to distract me from that shit.


First of all, the totheark thing is not noticeable, at all, nobody would question that if they weren't looking for things to complain about after the fact. But fine, it's noticeable, we'll agree to disagree on that.

Second of all, what are even you saying here? Are you saying that you'd care less about all of these minor nitpicks if you just enjoyed the ending more anyway? Because if that's true, fine, but just admit it wasn't what you wanted and that's what actually has you bothered. It's gotten to the point where you seem so insistent that that nitpick is actually important, that I'm literally just questioning your motives. Will you just not rest until you've shoved the idea that it was all somehow objectively bad down everyone's throats? I'm never going to agree with you, none of the stuff you pointed areas left unanswered was ever stuff I thought would be answered, I never thought it mattered.
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I was just lurking around the forums and i have no idea who MH is

I'm in here sometimes: http://tinychat.com/thehoodyhub

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:04 pm
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Lithp
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Joined: 04 Mar 2012
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Quote:
how so

It is canon to MH, if you read the original SA post by Jay you'd know that Jay did know about the Slender Man meme on SA before he began


Good point, but it never came up again, & they commented to the effect that The Operator is an original character loosely based on Slenderman. They also apparently counted their 5 year anniversary from the Introduction video, not the Something Awful post. Maybe this is 1 of those many Season 1 ideas that were thrown out. Or maybe it is canon, but this would raise many more questions than it answers. Either way, not ideal.

Quote:
that'd be such a stupid and irrelevant thing to do.


How is it stupid & irrelevant to explain how your antagonists found your protagonist after years of silence?

Quote:
All the recording himself is supposed to be for if he can't remember. Clearly he can remember big things like he's supposed to be killing people, it's the events that he can't remember.


Alex stopped filming himself at all times a while back. I don't remember exactly when, but he clearly does not bring a camera to any of his attempted Final Showdowns with Jay or Tim. There was also the period of time where he was pretending to not even have a camera, after burning all of the tapes.

Quote:
wtf are you even saying. like that's not even what he was really talking about


Yes, because I don't believe that his statement is sufficient. I've said this a number of times now.

Quote:
because you've proven before your knowledge of the plot isn't very good


I've always said that Marble Hornets is difficult for me to follow because of questionable writing decisions. Yes, believe it or not, I've had reservations about Marble Hornets for a while now. A lot of people have. People didn't just decide to rail against it overnight to be edgy. You just didn't notice.

Anyway, if you hop over onto the EverymanHYBRID forum, my grasp of the plot is MUCH better, even though that's supposedly the more confusing series. I've attributed this to things like the Entries not being memorable enough or having individualized names, & the timeline being too vague. It also probably makes more sense to you guys because you're willing to watch these things again & again & theorize on them nearly endlessly.

But some of these Entries I didn't even like the 1st time around, why would I want to jump right back into the 9 hours, especially after I've already seen Seasons 1, 2, & roughly half of 3 twice now? I don't think I've ever watched a show, in full, 3 times over, & I've certainly never needed to do that to understand their plots.

Quote:
and you always argue about really weird and irrelevant things. I wouldn't really even be pointing it out or being mean about it if that wasn't the whole state of this forum right now.


What, exactly, are your criteria for judging relevancy?

Quote:
Anyways, I'm talking about the how did totheark find the channel thing. You're grasping at straws for plot holes if you think that's important.


I have never once called it a plot hole, I cited it as an example of how the writers don't do much actual writing. They didn't tell us how Totheark found Jay & even if we assume that they just randomly Googled things, that's lazy. Okay, so you "didn't think it would be answered," but are you telling me that it shouldn't have been? That it would have somehow taken away from the story to actually have a fleshed out backstory? Especially for major antagonists? Do you consider doing that to be poor writing?

Quote:
I'm just saying pretty much all if your nitpicks can be traced to it not being planned out in the long term.


And every time you've said that, I've pointed out that it's not a valid excuse because they've had more than enough time to revisit old points & chart a new course.

Quote:
I don't know what you're trying to do at this point. Do you feel like people have minimized your opinion that the ending is bad, and you're defending yourself?


Why is it okay for you to continue making your points, but if I do it, I get a bunch of leading, barbed statements like "you seem desperate" & "are you dead set on everyone agreeing that your complaints are actually important"? Am I seriously expected to answer these questions? If you don't think it's important, you don't need to demand that I drop the subject, you are perfectly capable of doing that yourself.

Quote:
First of all, the totheark thing is not noticeable, at all, nobody would question that if they weren't looking for things to complain about after the fact. But fine, it's noticeable, we'll agree to disagree on that.


You literally never once wondered how Totheark found Jay in the 1st place? The thought never even crossed your mind? Okay, maybe I'm just more interested in plot than you are. Sure, whatever, disagree to agree.

Quote:
Second of all, what are even you saying here? Are you saying that you'd care less about all of these minor nitpicks if you just enjoyed the ending more anyway?


It's a paraphrasing of a point made by the Nostalgia Critic. All film making is flawed, but a good film hides the flaws. It's not simply a matter of being entertaining, writing quality is also a factor. A lot of this is open to interpretation, but with so many people having similar problems with the writing, there is definitely a systematic, objective flaw in the writing. You say it's the initial lack of plan, but that's not really sufficient. You could easily write ways around all of that. For example, I showed how a Skully Jay Arc could tie together many of the hanging plot threads, if done right.

Now, you can say that just brainstorming ideas is 1 thing & actually filming them is totally different, but do you really think that Trosephim are the 1st filmographers to have to plan around things & pull plots out of nowhere on a limited budget? Not likely. I'm inclined to say that enough time has passed that the initial lack of planning SHOULD be irrelevant, but at the VERY least, it is not a sufficient excuse.

Quote:
Will you just not rest until you've shoved the idea that it was all somehow objectively bad down everyone's throats?

didn't you bring this up man? this is what Im talking about. why even say something like that when YOU brought it up and are the one pressing the argument. makes me think I"m just getting trolled.


Interesting questions. I actually didn't remember how the argument started, so I looked back. I initially simply asked DHawk how Jay led Totheark to Alex. He was the 1st to bring up "why [I] didn't like the ending & [he] did," which was putting an awful lot of words in my mouth--including more-or-less said that my problem was that I just didn't understand the obvious plot points--but I assumed that he didn't mean anything by it & elaborated upon my reasoning.

At some point, 420Goku responded, basically just randomly arguing against me.

Since then, I've simply been answering direct responses to me. You 2 are apparently upset because I haven't either conceded to you or stopped responding.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:22 pm
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DHawk314
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 		I don't want you to concede that you're wrong, I want you to acknowledge that my opinion that the series was good has to do with us having wanted different things from the series, and NOT because my standards are lower, or that the series was objectively bad. The writing style of Marble Hornets was never conventional, and I've always liked that about it. Why do I have to feel like I somehow "Don't understand how stories just OBVIOUSLY SHOULD be" in order to have thoroughly enjoyed a non-conventional story? My issue isn't that you won't admit I'm write, it's that your viewpoint on my opinion seems to be that it somehow means I'm stupider than you, or that I don't understand stories as well as you. I think the way the plot was done was fine. I think the important part of the story was the character driven arcs which I think we're really good! I get why you didn't like it, I just don't get why, when you explain what you didn't like about it, you have to be such a dick about it to everyone who did.
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I was just lurking around the forums and i have no idea who MH is

I'm in here sometimes: http://tinychat.com/thehoodyhub

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:49 pm
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420Goku
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 		lmao dude if you don't enjoy the series and can't even follow it just say that fuck

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:44 pm
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lonsumtravlr
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 		Why can't everyone just fuckin' play fuckin' nice?

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:54 pm
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Bulb
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DHawk314 wrote:
when you explain what you didn't like about it, you have to be such a dick about it to everyone who did.


420Goku wrote:
lmao dude if you don't enjoy the series and can't even follow it just say that fuck


If Lithp's opinion (or the way he expresses it) is so obnoxious, then I recommend you speak to one another instead. From the few posts of his that I've read, he seems respectful of other people's opinions. If he happens to challenge yours, (which any poster is entitled to do,) you should know better than to call him a "dick" or suggest he isn't smart enough to follow the series. From where I'm standing, comments such as those only cast doubt on your own intelligence.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:10 pm
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