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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: General » ARG: Aware
[META] Ouch... info leaked to Alecia 5/17
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jonathan
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Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 36
Location: UK

 		[META] Ouch... info leaked to Alecia 5/17
Quote:


Jonathan,

Your email is a joke. You think you are my only spy? I have documented proof you have broken our agreement. You are going around like a silly little schoolgirl bragging to other Ideltech employees that you are in contact with me. You've even gone so far as to show our agreement. You are lucky to still be alive. If you want to stay that way then I suggest you stop emailing me.

Alecia







I didn't expect that. I was totally unaware that In Game character's visited these boards. I have not told anyone else, while as an "in-game" character(i.e.- ideltech employee) about our contact.

Would you guys not say that by in-game characters visiting boards that deal with solving puzzles related to the game- with us not dealing with it as "real life" but as immersive fun- that it detracts from the reality of the experience?

Rolling Eyes .



thanks

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 3:44 pm
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Giskard
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Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 2066
Location: Chicago

 		Hmmm... I am pretty sure that there is a fiirm understanding with the people that run AWARE that the uF boards are off-limits game-wise. There have been enough discussions to that effect... are you sure you did not mention this to any other in-game characters?

Or do we have a spy in our own midst? I can imagine true Ideltech devotees would warn someone, who could have warned another someone? This gives me the feeling though that we have to be very VERY careful when dealing with Alecia and the fragile contacts that we may have with her...
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 3:54 pm
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Rasputin42x69
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: Eris' Bar & Grill, Limbo

 		If we DO have a spy in our own midst, then wouldn't it behoove them to consider UnForums and #ruaware off-limits game wise as well?
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 4:08 pm
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Giskard
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Joined: 07 Oct 2003
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Rasputin42x69 wrote:
If we DO have a spy in our own midst, then wouldn't it behoove them to consider UnForums and #ruaware off-limits game wise as well?


That's a toughie... game-wise, I'd say yes, but on the other hand, when you consider uF a place where Ideltech employees exchange information, an individual employee could consider him/herself free to use the acquired information in any way he or she wants...

I can't say I'm too comfortable with the idea though.
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 4:17 pm
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Rasputin42x69
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Giskard wrote:
I can't say I'm too comfortable with the idea though.


Neither am I. This could seriously hamper the teamwork aspect that ARG are known for. Players could end up hoarding crucial info out of fear, and hoarding info is in violation of one of the Ten Commandments of ARGs, if I'm correct.
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(Currently playing: BSeeingU - Watching: Year Zero - Played: Project MU, Acheron, Aware)

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 4:28 pm
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rowan
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Joined: 12 Apr 2004
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Rasputin42x69 wrote:
If we DO have a spy in our own midst, then wouldn't it behoove them to consider UnForums and #ruaware off-limits game wise as well?


I would think that UF should definitly be off limits. There is just too much information available here that in-game characters could use.

#ruaware is a little tougher since there have been some very shady instances where information in the channel has seemingly been used by in-game characters (Steve Lake being the prime example). It could be that the PM's consider the channel a gathering of Ideltech employees now that AWARE is 'officially' over, although they would have to walk a fine line in not getting information from links to either the UF boards or the Wiki.

Then you have IM's, both on IRC and the various messaging services, plus emails. Should any IM/email be considered fair game, or only those from Intellim or an Ideltech address? A spy could say that they were acting as an Ideltech employee while the target could say they thought they were talking "off the record".

Now, there is the issue of 3rd party information. Say I were to post on UF that "I like to eat rotten bananas." Someone, we'll say Johnathan, reads this fact. Johnathan later talks to Giskard and says that, "Rowan likes to eat rotten bananas." Now, if Giskard was a spy, could this information be used? Giskard doesn't know that Johnathan only got this info from UF. Johnathan easily could have talked to me directly and gotten this information. If I then get an email going, "We know you like to eat rotten bananas" I would naturally assume the information was taken from the UF board. It was, but only indirectly. This whole idea of what is or isnt availble to use becomes very, very messy.

None of this addresses the issues of whether or not there even should be spies. If Alecia is trying to recruit people to spy on Ideltech, then what are they to do? Spy and tell no one? Spy, but post to UF about their findings and risk 3rd party information leaks? Spy, but keep a few people in the loop so that pertinent information can be leaked to the group? Beats me, but if the PM's continue down this spying path, this won't be the last time this issue comes up.
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 4:52 pm
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Giskard
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Joined: 07 Oct 2003
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rowan72 wrote:
I would think that UF should definitly be off limits. There is just too much information available here that in-game characters could use.


It is, and I think that the PM's are pretty much aware and convinced of that fact as well.

Quote:
#ruaware is a little tougher since there have been some very shady instances where information in the channel has seemingly been used by in-game characters (Steve Lake being the prime example). It could be that the PM's consider the channel a gathering of Ideltech employees now that AWARE is 'officially' over, although they would have to walk a fine line in not getting information from links to either the UF boards or the Wiki.


No, #unfiction and #ruaware are an extension of these boards and are also completely out of game. In-game characters have never entered there before, all IRC contact went through other channels like #l3, #marcus, etc.

Quote:
Then you have IM's, both on IRC and the various messaging services, plus emails. Should any IM/email be considered fair game, or only those from Intellim or an Ideltech address? A spy could say that they were acting as an Ideltech employee while the target could say they thought they were talking "off the record".


I'd say alll e-mail and IM's should be treated as possibly part of the game.

Quote:
Now, there is the issue of 3rd party information. Say I were to post on UF that "I like to eat rotten bananas." Someone, we'll say Johnathan, reads this fact. Johnathan later talks to Giskard and says that, "Rowan likes to eat rotten bananas." Now, if Giskard was a spy, could this information be used? Giskard doesn't know that Johnathan only got this info from UF. Johnathan easily could have talked to me directly and gotten this information. If I then get an email going, "We know you like to eat rotten bananas" I would naturally assume the information was taken from the UF board. It was, but only indirectly. This whole idea of what is or isnt availble to use becomes very, very messy.


This is where the fine line is that Rasputin mentioned above. I think that as a player, using info you found on uF is up to you subject to certain 'etiquette'. The 10 commandments of ARG'ing that Rasputin mentioned would be a good list to go by. Normally, lots of info found here is used in interaction with in-game characters, but in this specific situation it quite forcefully undermined an individual player's strategy and I cannot say I approve of it.

I do not think though that this is a case of the PM's crossing a line but rather one of us crossing the line of etiquette...

Quote:
None of this addresses the issues of whether or not there even should be spies. If Alecia is trying to recruit people to spy on Ideltech, then what are they to do? Spy and tell no one? Spy, but post to UF about their findings and risk 3rd party information leaks? Spy, but keep a few people in the loop so that pertinent information can be leaked to the group? Beats me, but if the PM's continue down this spying path, this won't be the last time this issue comes up.


Maybe this turn of events is also a signal that spying with OmniscientEyes won't get us anywhere? It's a rather tough way to make that point clear to us though...
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 5:00 pm
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Guest
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Quote:
Players could end up hoarding crucial info out of fear, and hoarding info is in violation of one of the Ten Commandments of ARGs



Exactly, Rasputin. It is for this reason alone that I decided to post my e-mails with Alecia on the boards. I could have kept the info I discovered to myself, yet at the expense of plot advancement. So I decide to post the information here, and only here, safe in the knowledge, I presumed, that this was strictly "out of game" Next thing I know what could have been a very good lead later is destroyed. Alecia terminating all contact with me...

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 5:07 pm
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jonathan
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Joined: 10 May 2004
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 		^ that was me, forgot to log in Embarassed

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 5:09 pm
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StercusMaximus
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Joined: 19 Nov 2002
Posts: 204
Location: MA

 		Jonathan, i'm sorry if this came up somewhere else, but which account did you e-mail Alicia from?

And as for what's in game and out of game, here's my 2 cents: I think that any e-mail sent from our ideltech accounts can be ingame, mainly because it was set up my ingame characters, so it would make sense that an ingame character could get access to them. I think the same can be said of an IM conversation....

More than anything else, I think the PM's are just trying to show us how good Alicia is at getting information, possibly even better than TOBI....

SM (MBrown)

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 5:14 pm
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saucey
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Anonymous wrote:
Quote:
Players could end up hoarding crucial info out of fear, and hoarding info is in violation of one of the Ten Commandments of ARGs



Exactly, Rasputin. It is for this reason alone that I decided to post my e-mails with Alecia on the boards. I could have kept the info I discovered to myself, yet at the expense of plot advancement. So I decide to post the information here, and only here, safe in the knowledge, I presumed, that this was strictly "out of game" Next thing I know what could have been a very good lead later is destroyed. Alecia terminating all contact with me...



Hi Guys, just following along at work and had to quickly throw in my 2 cents:

I agree that UF should be off limits...but how do we know where this information came from? If anybody has shared their info with other players or ingame characters off the boards, then that's probably ok. It just means we have to be very careful who we tell stuff to and who we trust. I know that I have shared ingame info with other players so maybe that will come back to haunt me. That's fine by me, because that's what would happen in RL but as for these boards, they should be off-limits to spies, PM's, etc.

As for #ruaware, I'm not sure how that should be handled. Technically it's META, but there could be spies there...I'm certain that there has been PM spies on there, so who knows?

D-

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 5:15 pm
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jonathan
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Joined: 10 May 2004
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Quote:
Jonathan, i'm sorry if this came up somewhere else, but which account did you e-mail Alicia from?



Hi, I e-mailed her from my Ideltech account- reason being this was the only way I could prove to her that I really was working for Ideltech. As a matter of fact I have not e-mailed anyone from my Ideltech accounts detailing my corrospondence with Alecia. So even if she was to look at my mail-history she wouldn't find much.

The thing I dont get though, is that the only place I have posted a log of these e-mails is here, which I thought to be completely "out of game" So Alecia shouldn't be coming here to read them in the first place.

However, If it's someone who is spying for Alecia and stealing their information from here, then thats just bad etiquette Cool

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 5:23 pm
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Giskard
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Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 2066
Location: Chicago
saucey wrote:

I agree that UF should be off limits...but how do we know where this information came from? If anybody has shared their info with other players or ingame characters off the boards, then that's probably ok. It just means we have to be very careful who we tell stuff to and who we trust. I know that I have shared ingame info with other players so maybe that will come back to haunt me. That's fine by me, because that's what would happen in RL but as for these boards, they should be off-limits to spies, PM's, etc.


The truth is that in "normal" situations, while playing ARG's, we continuously share information on uF and use that information in our own interaction with the game or game-characters... the thing is, Johnathan shared his info with us as a player of the game, not "in-character" as Ideltech employee. Someone presumably took this information and used it in-character to communicate with other characters.

It's tricky and as I said, I don't approve of it, but it is still what we do all the time... for example, I remember someone talking to Thad about his relationship with Melody after another player chatted with Melody about it first and posting that chat here... there's nothing strictly wrong with that, but we all do have to consider if we WANT to use information that way, because it will probably indeed scare people into not sharing information, which is not what ARG'ing is all about.

Quote:
As for #ruaware, I'm not sure how that should be handled. Technically it's META, but there could be spies there...I'm certain that there has been PM spies on there, so who knows?


I'd like to stress again that #ruaware is also out of game! Ofcourse PM's may lurk there, but they cannot use information out of chat except for maybe following progress and speeding things up if needed. And again, it is my firm belief the PM's know the above facts and act according to them. There has been enough discussion in the past few weeks on the subject to assure me of that.
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 5:26 pm
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KyraB
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Joined: 22 Mar 2003
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Location: oklahoma city, ok

 		My thoughts... if you are emailing an in-game character from your Ideltech account, it has to be considered in-game. For pete's sake, we all know (or sorta) that Sandy is one of Alecia's spies, and she might have a way to look at our ideltech mail, then there you go.

Second, we have to remember that we've already (supposedly) had a renegade "player". Our lovely Professor could very likely be reading what we post here in UF or otherwise and then reporting it back to in-game characters as another player.

My question is this...if we don't let the PMs know that things that were posted on UF were "breached" so to say, then how on earth are we going to prevent anyone from doing so going forward? I'm so darned confused now anywho about what's real and what's in-game and whatnot I'm bonkers! So, bottom line - How do we proceed? Question

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 5:43 pm
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bagsbee
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Joined: 21 Oct 2003
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saucey wrote:
As for #ruaware, I'm not sure how that should be handled. Technically it's META, but there could be spies there...I'm certain that there has been PM spies on there, so who knows?


I think it's safe to assume that, at any time, there may be a PM lurking in #ruaware. In fact, it's probably wise for PM's to lurk there, sometimes it's the best way to find out where players are at in the story, how far along they are in a puzzle solve, etc. Likewise you can be sure that PMs are poring over the posts in these forums. But in-game characters should, IMHO, never, never, never post in the forums or be in #ruaware, lurking or otherwise. As far as characters go, UnForums and #ruaware don't exist.

If this is truly a case of an in-game character chastizing a player for sharing info here on the forums, then I'm calling FOUL.

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 5:44 pm
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