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Slyfox
Unfettered


Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 323
Location: Manchester, UK

 		I had a quick look at the image to see if anything was stegged. Embarassed
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"I mean, think about it.....its on the internet, right? Therefor, it's GOT to be real!! I mean, who would use the internet to lie? That'd just be crazy!" --- StercusMaximus

PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:35 am
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NashCarey
Veteran

Joined: 11 Dec 2003
Posts: 102
Location: Nierstein, Germany

 		My response
Quote:

In a perfect ARG universe nobody would ever know who the puppetmasters of games were.

Who's definition of perfect? Without knowing who you are or what experience you have how can you define "perfect." Unfortunately someone thought enough of you to allow you to post something like you did. They know that you are a credible source, but I like to make opinions on people not by what Steve sees in you, but what I do, or the rest of the community. Could you have a bad image in the eyes of some already and not want exposure so you post annonymously? Possibly. Or is it the fact that you are worried that you might not be able to voice your opinion with out strong backlash like these boards have presented? What ever your reason is, I can't seem to get past that part that deep down it deals with fear. Kind of like that second post on the board

Perfect is in the eye of the beholder. And the beholder is the audience. Never will there be a game that pleases everyone. Never will someone not walk away upset. Never. So perfection is unobtainable, but should be attempted by the person who is putting a game together. And "Perfect" to them might be different than perfect to someone else.
Quote:

Not before the game started, not during the game and quite possibly not after the game.


Why? I am dying for Dave to do another game. When he does I am playing it. I also know someone who worked BTS with me at one point is working towards putting a game together. One I definitely won't play. Because I know a little about their style.

Here we are in UF. Do you think if someone is putting a game together we won't hear about it before it is done? I have heard of six different games which are currently in production and know the main PM for 4 of them. And I only talked directly to one of them. The rest came through the "rumor mill" and all have been verified as true.

I do what I do for a reason. My other people BTS are supposed to keep quiet. Sometimes I have issues as seen before. And when brought to my attention (something that couldn't be done if I was a mystery) I can correct the issues, before they get posted for everyone to see, and worry about. I will never be a closed PM. I like the fact new people can Email me with issues they are having. I feel my game is here to serve them, and I can do that best when I am "out."

I also feel it makes a game more marketable. Sponsors need a name and a face to talk to. I want to bring money into this Genre. I believe more quality games will be a result of it. Sponsors would lose interest quick if they have to hire a P.I. to figure out who was running a game. My philosophy has worked so far. I have found someone interested in investing as much as $50k to make a full-time office which specializes in these games if I can show enough interest at a free level. Which honestly, right now I am failing in.

And even another reason is the legal issue. I don't want to be held responsible if anyone decides to do something stupid and gets me sued. Or I might need to reach out to a confused youth who is playing my game. I already had to break curtain a few times because my game scared a young teen. I believe it would be irresponsible to have a game like AWARE and allow any youngster with a computer to play without having some sort of check and balance. Reality is some parents don't supervise. They leave that to me.

I intend to be "out" for my next game coming out in March. After that, Real World Gaming will be hosting the games. And no one will know who the person in charge of the game will be.

Quote:

The PM's would fade into oblivion with only their logs from chat, archives from forums and a deep sense of satisfaction for a game-well-played to gratify them.


In my case I am doing some things in AWARE which require some Out of Game explanation. So I had a Post-PreGame chat. Couldn't do that if I was behind a curtain. And the genre could never experience radical thinking because it may be to confusing.

Quote:

In a not-so-perfect ARG universe PMs are often challenged to keep their identities secret but are seduced by the interaction with players to reveal themselves.

Good, now we are talking reality.
Quote:

It's not difficult to seduce PMs, especially if they don't have a corporate shield to hide behind and don't have a lot of experience being published and appreciated for their creativity.

Um, geeesh, well, teach me master. But if I wanted to be "appreciated" I chose the wrong game plan with this group. I want to bring something that hasn't been brought out before. I want to challenge you all a bit. I want to break the "this is the ONLY way an ARG should be thinking." But I guess with some it makes them like concrete (all mixed up and permenantly set).
Quote:

Corporate shield PMs, creators of such games as AI (Microsoft), Alias (Touchstone), PUSH (Live Planet) and :K: (ad company for BMW) appear to have more incentive to stay hidden. Perhaps by mandate, perhaps by achieving a collective discipline, these PMs managed to succeed in maintaining the integrity of the alternate reality they create.

Hmmm, but we still know who put these games on. So why were these games successful in keeping a PM hidden? We know who they are.
Quote:

Lockjaw and Metacortechs went a long way toward preserving the concept of anonymous PMs. Granted, there were isolated players who knew the identities of some or all the makers of these games, but for the most part, they both succeeded admirably in keeping alive the belief that players can create games that achieve the high standards set by the Corporate shield PMs.

But we know who they are too. So how was that successful? If someone wants to PM hunt hard enough, they WILL succeed. I give myself up to take all the criticism so my PMs don't have to.
Quote:

What sets the anonymous PMs apart from the PMs who can't resist identifying themselves and interacting directly with players?

I stated above my reasons.
Quote:

Why are the anonymous PMs able to retain their discipline and professionalism while others succumb to socializing with players and taking their bows (in some cases) before the game has even begun?

If I were out to take bows at this point I would have to expect some rotten tomato's.
Quote:

Having wondered this many times and having some experience with first-time writers, I'm inclined to believe that inexperience, intense need for recognition and possibly loneliness might be considerable contributors to this lax in discipline.

How about none of the above. How about personal preference.
Quote:

Dare I say, even an over-inflated sense of the value and quality of one's work plays a significant part in the failure to fortify the boundaries around an alternate reality.

When Hoyle creates a Rule book of ARG's and we have a written label to define what an ARG is supposed to be, then I might read it, take it for what it is worth, then still do my own thing. This is an art form. Would someone tell a five year old their drawing wasn't art? No, because to the artist it is. I am glad we have forums to get critiques like this one. It gives us opportunity to discuss what we like and don't like. But this five year old isn't going to change the way he colors.
Quote:

Maybe the fault lies with the ARG community at large for not cultivating a greater sense of the importance of anonymity to the overall quality of the genre.

Or, maybe the fault is not everyone feels the same way you do. I understand your perception is your reality, but take a moment and think that others might not care if a PM is out or not. Some might even like an approachable PM better.
Quote:

I hope the real issue isn't that players simply don't care anymore if PMs invade our playing space and force us to interact and contend with their egos.

You exhaust me. Don't like they way AWARE is run, don't play. Or even rubberneck. Just ignore it. Like changing the channel if you don't like what is on.
Quote:

I know I'm not alone in my desire to find a way to enforce these boundaries.

Who defined the boundaries? You? When I see boundaries that tell me I am not permitted on UF or anywhere I will be upset. Before I created AWARE how many games were active? Zero. I am at UF and other places because it is my home and my place to interact with people who share my love for the game. And one thing I have learned is the internet is an infinite space. If the community doesn't want me, I will go somewhere else. And I will continue to create games. I will continue to create sites. But I won't leave just because a couple say they don't like the way I create art. Think of me as that five year old aforementioned. I am here to share something with you. Take it or leave it. Whatever you do, PMing outside a curtain needs to be recognized as an option. It is the way I do things. Don't participate if you don't like it.
Quote:

We need to speak up often and deliberately and without letting up if we're to succeed in pushing PMs back behind the curtain, once and for all.

Good Luck!
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Hegemony is another word for hypocrisy. -- me

PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:48 am
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imbriModerator
Entrenched


Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland
NashCarey wrote:
Could you have a bad image in the eyes of some already and not want exposure so you post annonymously? Possibly. Or is it the fact that you are worried that you might not be able to voice your opinion with out strong backlash like these boards have presented? What ever your reason is, I can't seem to get past that part that deep down it deals with fear.


Or it could be the reasons that Steve stated above.

NashCarey wrote:
Perfect is in the eye of the beholder. And the beholder is the audience.


Actually, I believe the beholder is the person that stated the opinion. It was an opinion piece it was not a statement that the entire genre and everyone in it must approve of or agree with.

NashCarey wrote:
Do you think if someone is putting a game together we won't hear about it before it is done?


Um, yes, I think that is what Line is thinking/hoping. And, you know what, it has been done before. Nobody knew about Project Mu before it went live and it was well over a month before anyone knew who was behind it. Noone knew about the Widow's son and, to date, a number of people still don't know who the PM is. As for you knowing of six games and the main PM for four of them, I think that as an active PM you may know more than most. I doubt that the average visitor to UF knows of them, with the exception of the one that actually started to come together on this board. Frankly, I consider myself an active member of the community and I only know of three, including the two that have been actively discussed on this board (Syzygy and the PM training grounds).

NashCarey wrote:
Sometimes I have issues as seen before. And when brought to my attention (something that couldn't be done if I was a mystery) I can correct the issues, before they get posted for everyone to see, and worry about.


Are you saying that because the PM teams that I've worked with were not out, that we didn't know of the issues our game faced? That we couldn't deal with those issues? If that is what you are saying, I can lay that opinion to rest. We did know and we were able to deal with them and we didn't have to be out on the boards and in chat in order to do so. Additionally, I would argue, that could just as easily be done with a Meta site that would allow players easy contact to the PM team without having to deal with the PM on a regular basis.

NashCarey wrote:
I want to bring money into this Genre. I believe more quality games will be a result of it.


Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see some money coming into this genre, but money brings quality? HA! You go on to say that this is an "art" and that the PMs are artists. You know, some of the best art in this world was produced without any money and some of the worst was done on commission.

I can think of a number of benefits to money coming into the genre, quality is not one of them. Could money help a quality PM team create a better game? Yes. Does a quality PM team need money to create a quality experience? No.

NashCarey wrote:
And even another reason is the legal issue. I don't want to be held responsible if anyone decides to do something stupid and gets me sued.


Well, if you never came out from behind the curtain and never attached your name or info to anything... how would they find you to sue you? That's somewhat of a joke, of course Smile

I do understand this, especially with the litigious American society. However, could that be avoided without the PM being actively out? Could disclaimers on the sites be enough? If that's not enough for you, what about on a simple meta site explaining the experience? How and why is being active on UF going to stop such legal actions, especially if there are no other disclaimers in the game? What of those players that do not come to UF?

NashCarey wrote:
I intend to be "out" for my next game coming out in March. After that, Real World Gaming will be hosting the games. And no one will know who the person in charge of the game will be.


Wait... I thought you were saying that if people didn't know who was in charge of the game, they wouldn't be able to contact that person if an issue would come up. If people don't know who is behind the game, what does that do to your argument that you want to know who is behind the game before playing (such as Dave or the unnamed former PM). How, quite frankly, is an anonymous ARG supported only by Real World Gaming any different from an opinion piece written under a pseudonym on ARGN? If you can't trust Steve and the author, why should a player trust Real World Gaming and the PMs of the future Real World Gaming games?

Honestly, I do agree with you that PMing outside a curtain should be a recognizable option. I don't think that it needs to be taken as far as you believe that it should be taken. However, to each their own. There are no real rights and wrongs, just lots and lots of opinions. There are also some proven methods and one of those is the use of a solid curtain and relatively hidden PMs, whether it's behind a corporate shield, a meta site, or an iron curtain. I think that we need to respect the proven methods as much as we do each other's opinions.

-brooke

PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:10 am
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Nightmare Tony
Entrenched

Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 824
Location: Meadowbrook

 		In another form of entertainment I am involved with, we have our own community. Most of the people going into our entertainment do not know or care who is the artist or who is running and working them. Ok, haunted houses.

I like the idea of the PMs being halfway accesible OUTSSDE OF GAME CONTEXT if the player is a part of said community such as here. Maybe a message in the game pointing to Unfiction.com as a community hangout where the PMs are free to be themselves as individual people without having to maintain the identity and roles required in the game? That can be as a seperate forum where the PMs can identify which game they are working on, but ONLY in said forum. Thisway, they can also interact on the rest of the forum as members and you don;'t necessarily know what campaign they are PMing for unless you go into that particular forum.

When I go to a haunted house, I enjoy meeting up with the owner and creator and monsters during a break or the end of the night, discussing tactics and ideas and giving praise and admiration for their work. During their time of scaring the bejeejees out of people, I would not socialize in such a manner since they are hard at work with their identities.

There is no right or wrong, but I do like Nash's point about the post-game chats, a fun time to socialize and discuss the journey well worth taking.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:21 am
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Varin
I Have No Life


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 2456
Location: South of where I used to be
imbri wrote:
As for you knowing of six games and the main PM for four of them, I think that as an active PM you may know more than most. I doubt that the average visitor to UF knows of them, with the exception of the one that actually started to come together on this board. Frankly, I consider myself an active member of the community and I only know of three, including the two that have been actively discussed on this board (Syzygy and the PM training grounds).


I know of four but I wonder if they are the same four? Syzygy, PM training grounds, the Virtuquest ARG, and Nash's POW.

imbri wrote:
Does a quality PM team need money to create a quality experience? No.


I agree. With enough creativity and research I think a PM could do an effective job on a very low budget.
_________________
"I still miss him to this day and probably always will." - Todd Keeler, Chasing the Wish

"meta meta meta, I made you out of play..." ~ j5

PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:40 am
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial
Varin wrote:
imbri wrote:
As for you knowing of six games and the main PM for four of them, I think that as an active PM you may know more than most. I doubt that the average visitor to UF knows of them, with the exception of the one that actually started to come together on this board. Frankly, I consider myself an active member of the community and I only know of three, including the two that have been actively discussed on this board (Syzygy and the PM training grounds).


I know of four but I wonder if they are the same four? Syzygy, PM training grounds, the Virtuquest ARG, and Nash's POW.

[/quote]

As one of the Visible Members of the PM Training Grounds, I can safely assert I am not involved in any of the other games listed. Wink
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Magesteff
A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:48 pm
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NashCarey
Veteran

Joined: 11 Dec 2003
Posts: 102
Location: Nierstein, Germany
imbri wrote:
How and why is being active on UF going to stop such legal actions, especially if there are no other disclaimers in the game?


Is being on UF and being from behind the curtain the issue? I thought it was just being "out" in general. Do most of you want me to refrain from coming to UF? If that is the wish I can honor that request. But let me know what you want. If you don't speak up I won't know. But one thing WILL stay the same. I will run AWARE like I feel best for me and the players. I also ask, if you aren't playing the game don't bother speaking up that you don't want me on UF while the game is in process. I don't feel you are the person I am trying to make happy. Why should it matter that someone is PMing a game differently if you aren't playing? I don't consider someone who rubbernecks a player. They are a spectator.

Quote:

NashCarey wrote:
I intend to be "out" for my next game coming out in March. After that, Real World Gaming will be hosting the games. And no one will know who the person in charge of the game will be.


Wait... I thought you were saying that if people didn't know who was in charge of the game, they wouldn't be able to contact that person if an issue would come up.


I appologize, I haven't explained myself well on this question. Real World Gaming will have a PR person who acts as a middle man between players, media, and the artists/PM's working the game. The PR person will be approachable if problems occur. Somethings go in a game you don't know about as PM because you want to give the players some privacy (and because sometimes what is said can be bad on morale if veiwed by some PM's). My opinion is (and don't see it changing soon) that someone out-of-game, in an out-of-game area (like UF), can make it easier for people to approch.[/quote]
imbri wrote:

If people don't know who is behind the game, what does that do to your argument that you want to know who is behind the game before playing (such as Dave or the unnamed former PM). How, quite frankly, is an anonymous ARG supported only by Real World Gaming any different from an opinion piece written under a pseudonym on ARGN? If you can't trust Steve and the author, why should a player trust Real World Gaming and the PMs of the future Real World Gaming games?

Well, that is good question. Really one I never pondered. I need to explain my plans I suppose. First I have to feel the game they are creating a quality game. Not just by the die-hard standards but newcomers standards. I will likely run small focus groups and find out what people think. From there I wll decide wether or not they have a game worth pouring my money into. If they do, I will pay all expenses they will/have occured (up to $5k, if they can show reason for needing that amount). Then the PM crew will make 50% of the gross income. This means if the game is not good enough to attract enough people I will lose money. So I guess I am putting my wallet where my mouth is. I am not saying you have to trust my opinion. I am simply saying that it takes alot more ftaste and opinion for me to endorse a game. I don't expect much trust from people now. Time will have to tell.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 6:34 am
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imbriModerator
Entrenched


Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland
NashCarey wrote:
I also ask, if you aren't playing the game don't bother speaking up that you don't want me on UF while the game is in process. I don't feel you are the person I am trying to make happy. ... I don't consider someone who rubbernecks a player. They are a spectator.


Interesting. I had always looked at it more like an iceberg. The vast majority of players are lurkers and are out of view, not posting on the boards but following along. Then the next largest group is the rubberneckers and they're visible but still pretty much in the background. Those two groups, however, are often active elsewhere and tend to bring people into the genre. They may mention the game on another board or, perhaps, write about it on their blog or even as an article on some sort of website. This helps to keep the genre and the game afloat. The smallest number of players are the incredibly active ones that are highly visible.

I never felt that it was wise to ignore any of the groups and that it was a fun little challenge to try to lure the lurkers out of lurkerdom and get the rubberneckers to post some really great spec. People play as they want to play and, imo, it's probably not a good idea to tell a lurker or rubbernecker that you don't consider their opinions as valuable as the active players'. In my experience, I've received some of my best feedback from the rubbernecking and lurking crowd.

We just really approach things differently, don't we.

-b

PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 8:40 am
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

 		I know I META but it's raining ATM
Please note what I write here simply reflects my personal experience and is not meant as a criticism of any particular person or group of people. Examples are given just to illustrate a point not to generate further topic on them per se, if I were more creative I could have made some up, but I'm not, so please note that I am not trying to restart any old worn-out topics.

As to the question of people commenting on a game they aren't playing, I have this bit to add. First, in my experience, the majority of these comments tend to be critical of what is happening in the game. And this negativity in turn influences the players in their own attitude about the game and can be discouraging. When I started playing Acheron and heard negative comments, I felt embarrassed and foolish about liking the game and wanting to continue playing it.

It takes energy to overcome a negative atmosphere and to try to create a positive fun space to play the game. When Krystal left AWARE the criticism was pretty brutal from players and non-players--not that it wasn't legitimate in regards to the use of Spacely's board--still, we ended up investing time and energy in the chat room making the bar and trying to have some fun so that people wanted to be around.

Second, if you aren't playing the game you don't necessarily react to events the same way a player, who has absorbed the game's atmosphere and has developed some connection with the characters, would react. One example, when we first found the OE site in AWARE, there was alot of criticism and assumptions about it. People didn't recognize that the log-in page was a puzzle, even though the password protected site may be the classic puzzle in any ARG, and instead claimed it was done to cover-up a PM error. This surprised me. I thought that we were so clearly lead to that site on purpose, there had to be a story element involved. And I think the difference in my reaction was based on the fact I had been playing the game and had some vague sense of how the story was moving. Again, it was disheartening to hear people tear down the game instead of trying to figure out the puzzle.

I am all in favor of comments and opinions of all kinds. Perhaps we need a way that this can be done in the chat room and other places on the board, as it is here in the META, without creating a negative buzz around a particular game or the genre in general.
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Mankind was my business, the common good was my business.~ Dickens

PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:29 am
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Varin
I Have No Life


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 2456
Location: South of where I used to be
NashCarey wrote:
I don't consider someone who rubbernecks a player. They are a spectator.


You shouldn't forget though, that all players won't play the way they want you to play. Just because you want them to do certain things in the game, doesn't mean they will. One of the great things about ARG's is that the players have choices. Some people prefer to solve puzzles and some people prefer to interact with characters. Some people just enjoy giving spec. Some do it all. Some just follow along and hop in every once in a while. If you ignore certain play types you will lose players and I know you don't want that. Wink

I don't think rubbernecker vs. 'real' player is a black and white issue. We do have real lives you know Wink For me, there are times that I can be in every chat and be there for every puzzle, but there are going to be other times that I can't. So there will be time during the game where I would be a 'real' player and times where I simply only have the time to be a rubbernecker.
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"I still miss him to this day and probably always will." - Todd Keeler, Chasing the Wish

"meta meta meta, I made you out of play..." ~ j5

PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:37 am
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mysteryjones
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Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 89
Location: London

 		two cents
First of all, lest I forget - I certainly wouldn't want Nash to avoid contributing to UF - I think we've had a lot of intriguing debate that's helped the genre and community.

It seems the only place I'm really involved is in the META department! I'm not sure what you'd call me, but here's my scenario:

-I devote upwards of an hour each day reading all UF discussion and in-game websites/posted interaction.
-I rarely ever get a chance to truly participate in puzzles, partly because my code-cracking skills are nothing like the gang here, and also because it is quite often that I will find a puzzle discovered and solved in between my daily visits.
-I do not participate in the chat sessions and almost never communicate directly with in-game characters

I'm pretty sure this would classify me as a very involved lurker/spectator. I feel as satisfied as anyone else to watch an narrative unfold across this pervasive media, and marvel at the ingenuity of puzzles devised & solved. I don't feel left out of the overall storyline, but I suppose that my involvement doesn't get included in the metrics of 'emails sent per hour' that probably dictate how many are 'playing'.

I suppose I'm just a little concerned that we've set the bar so high! 7 regular hours a week is the very upper limit of involvement for me, yet I still can't manage to crack into the 'player' status.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:07 pm
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dmax
Unfictologist

Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1387
Location: Location: Location!
NashCarey wrote:
I don't feel you are the person I am trying to make happy. Why should it matter that someone is PMing a game differently if you aren't playing? I don't consider someone who rubbernecks a player. They are a spectator.


I'm a spectator at this point - otherwise known as a potential customer.

There's this fine line in creativity: should you be true to your muse or sublimate your personal expression and cater to the demands of your potential customers.

Since rubberneckers aren't at all obligated to play, is it reasonable to ignore their feedback and exclude them from the customer base?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:32 pm
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial
Varin wrote:
NashCarey wrote:
I don't consider someone who rubbernecks a player. They are a spectator.


You shouldn't forget though, that all players won't play the way they want you to play.


I am reminded that in table top RPGs the problem many, if not all, Game Masters face - the dreaded "the Players are taking off in a different direction than I want them to go!"

While ARGs may have a bit more structured storyline, the premise is very similar in my point of view, when the players take speculations in a direction away from the core ideas of the game. Can't be helped, and you have a few choices:

1. Let the Players have their spec and give them avenues that will lead back toward your main idea, without them noticing that you are doing that.

2. Take their ideas and work them into the storyline

3. Brow beat the players to get them back on track.

Each method has their appeal, and some methods will be more popular with your players than others.
_________________
Magesteff
A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:32 pm
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roserainingonvacation
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 		MysteryJones says:

Quote:
I'm not sure what you'd call me


Al? Very Happy

PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 6:21 pm
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial
roserainingonvacation wrote:
MysteryJones says:

Quote:
I'm not sure what you'd call me


Al? Very Happy


Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Magesteff
A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 8:13 pm
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