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NashCarey
Veteran

Joined: 11 Dec 2003
Posts: 102
Location: Nierstein, Germany

jamesi wrote:
No, I wouldn't be able to use your name, but I would have instead addressed my comments at the anonymous author, without changing any of the things I said. The fact that you attached your name to your post makes no difference to me. I concentrated solely on the content of your commentary, rather than basing the credibility of your statements on whether or not you atttached your name/handle to what you said.


Does this mean we can all start posting annonymously on UF? I am pretty good at it and have been in trouble before for it. No, we can't do that. I understand the wisdom in why we don't do that now. It is because with being annonymous people can post things that might interfere with with games going on. Knowing that a PM didn't post something on a forum means that the info is not a 'mind screw.' We sign in so we can feel good about the sharing of dialogue. Who put much credit in the second post on this thread from PHiN? Not me. They are annonymous. If you support someone posting like 'line' at ARGN you must also see good reason for PHiN's post. And with that ideal being supported, then why should anyone sign in? And don't just say, "Because the agreements says so."

One thing about the internet is anyone can put anything up. I could put a Anti-ARGN post up somewhere and explain how it is basically run by people who think they define what an ARG is by living in the 'glory days of their past'. I could also put stuff up that could tear might tear a nice community apart with drastically different ideals. I feel when someone is that reckless with their words like 'line' was, when (s)he said basically "find a way to enforce PM's out of UF", the responsible thing would be first not put it up on the front door of the ARGN. But secondly, put a name to it so it doesn't sound like they are the overall views and opinions of everyone, but the views and opinions of someone. I feel ARGN.com was reckless in the power they have in this genre by allowing this to be there.

I suppose those are harsh statements huh? How much more harsh than 'lines'? I have my name on it.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:06 pm
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago

NashCarey wrote:
Does this mean we can all start posting annonymously on UF? I feel when someone is that reckless with their words like 'line' was, when (s)he said basically "find a way to enforce PM's out of UF",



Who the what now?

Quote:
the responsible thing would be first not put it up on the front door of the ARGN. But secondly, put a name to it so it doesn't sound like they are the overall views and opinions of everyone, but the views and opinions of someone. I feel ARGN.com was reckless in the power they have in this genre by allowing this to be there.

I suppose those are harsh statements huh? How much more harsh than 'lines'? I have my name on it.


What's this reckless term you're throwing around now? Steve has already stated that he thought it was worthwhile to have the author behind the name 'line' post this opinion piece at ARGN. You were the one that brought it to our attention here. Aren't you also, by proxy, "reckless"?

If you choose to read an opinion piece and assume that that person is speaking for the rest of the ARG world, that's certainly your choice. But I know the difference. I was not harmed by this article, and I've played a couple of games, and puppetmastered two. In essence, you seem to resent this person speaking for this community. It seems as though your argument is veering towards doing the same thing.

I went back and looked at the piece again this morning (then got distracted by tick tick tick), and I'm still not sure why people are so alarmed and upset about the views expressed. I have seen so many of you be far harsher critics of games and puzzles and character development every single day in IRC.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:25 pm
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jamesi
Sentient Being


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 2195
Location: Canadia

NashCarey wrote:
Does this mean we can all start posting annonymously on UF?


Sure. There's nothing in the TOS that forces people to login in order to post.

NashCarey wrote:
I am pretty good at it and have been in trouble before for it... I understand the wisdom in why we don't do that now. It is because with being annonymous people can post things that might interfere with with games going on. Knowing that a PM didn't post something on a forum means that the info is not a 'mind screw.' We sign in so we can feel good about the sharing of dialogue.


You have been in trouble, as far as I can ascertain, for posting under a second nick/handle, which is a violation of the TOS. You didn't post anonymously, you posted as TheCreator. You know that UnForums is out-of-game, regardless of the game in question. If that wasn't explicitly clear to you when you started your game, it is now.

NashCarey wrote:
Who put much credit in the second post on this thread from PHiN? Not me. They are annonymous. If you support someone posting like 'line' at ARGN you must also see good reason for PHiN's post. And with that ideal being supported, then why should anyone sign in? And don't just say, "Because the agreements says so."


Why discredit PHiN's post because (s)he posted as a guest? Again, I have to wonder why some people are so concerned about attaching a name or an identity to a particular opinion when it is SO easy to argue against the opinion itself, right here, in these very forums? Who relly cares who line is when, regardless of their identity, you (or anyone else) can offer contrary arguments to what has been said? You can certainly argue against what the article says without knowing who wrote it. To me, the only reason anyone would want to have that identity is to personally attack the person themselves, and not the opinions. Petty, petty stuff.

NashCarey wrote:
I could put a Anti-ARGN post up somewhere and explain how it is basically run by people who think they define what an ARG is by living in the 'glory days of their past'. I could also put stuff up that could tear might tear a nice community apart with drastically different ideals.


You certainly could. You have that right. And you would more than likely have rebuttals to what you claim. Aha! Free speech! Aha! Two-way conversation! Aha! All sides of the argument!

NashCarey wrote:
I feel when someone is that reckless with their words like 'line' was, when (s)he said basically "find a way to enforce PM's out of UF", the responsible thing would be first not put it up on the front door of the ARGN... I feel ARGN.com was reckless in the power they have in this genre by allowing this to be there.


Show me where the ARGN homepage has a logo proclaiming it to be the police force and guiding light for all things ARG. ARGN is a resource, a compendium for many different pieces of information. Why should ARGN feel responsible for the viewpoints of an individual? That would be like the New York Times being responsible for the views of their readers who choose to send in a 'Letter to the Editor'. But wait, now you are going to say, "If Line is a contributing writer for ARGN, then their views represent the views of the website!" Steve has come right out and said, "any editorial opinions expressed on ARGN are those of the author, and don't necessarily reflect the views of ARGN itself." so let's put that ammunition back in the storage container for another time, another place.

NashCarey wrote:
But secondly, put a name to it so it doesn't sound like they are the overall views and opinions of everyone.


There is a name on it. It's line. It wasn't written by everyone.

NashCarey wrote:
I suppose those are harsh statements huh? How much more harsh than 'lines'? I have my name on it.


Is anyone censoring what you wrote because of your so-called 'harsh' comments? Nope. Isn't that what you want ARGN to do? Puh-lease. Do I care that it was you and not Joe Schmo that wrote the article? Nope.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Last edited by jamesi on Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:12 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Gupfee
Site Admin


Joined: 22 Sep 2002
Posts: 817
Location: Massachusetts

NashCarey wrote:
[Does this mean we can all start posting annonymously on UF? I am pretty good at it and have been in trouble before for it. No, we can't do that. I understand the wisdom in why we don't do that now. It is because with being annonymous people can post things that might interfere with with games going on.


You are mixing up ARGN and the Unfiction forums. The Unfiction forums have a clearly defined TOS which states exactly what is and what isn't allowed to be posted on them. ARGN is a separate site with a separate purpose and separate administration. Just because both sites deal with ARG and gaming doesn't mean they are interchangeable.

I mean, I know vpisteve and SpaceBass *look* like they are attached at the hip, but really, they are two different people. Wink

PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:01 pm
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jamesi
Sentient Being


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 2195
Location: Canadia

Mind you, if Spacely grew a goatee, we might be able to pass them off as brothers. At the very least, distant cousins. Can Spacely play keyboards? Can Steve play DDR?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:06 pm
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SpaceBass
The BADministrator


Joined: 20 Sep 2002
Posts: 2701
Location: pellucidar

jamesi wrote:
Mind you, if Spacely grew a goatee, we might be able to pass them off as brothers.

That's "bum fluff," and you should take a closer look at my Europe pics. Wink Besides, Steve has a Van Dyke, not a goatee.

jamesi wrote:
Can Spacely play keyboards?

Yep! But only at like 90wpm.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:13 pm
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addlepated
Unfictologist


Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Posts: 1885
Location: Austin, Texas

With the exception of a few of us, pretty much anyone on the board is anonymous anyway. There are groups who have met up at different gatherings, but otherwise how do we know who's who? A handle is just a name someone made up.



PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:18 pm
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dmax
Unfictologist

Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1387
Location: Location: Location!

jamesi's said it already, but someone might have missed it: Isn't the only point behind having a name on the comment to allow someone to attack the commentator rather than the stated issue?

Which is what's happening, anyway. Rolling Eyes

PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 5:00 pm
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Diandra
Unfettered


Joined: 27 Sep 2002
Posts: 390

dmax wrote:
jamesi's said it already, but someone might have missed it: Isn't the only point behind having a name on the comment to allow someone to attack the commentator rather than the stated issue?

Which is what's happening, anyway. Rolling Eyes


Well, dmax, you're convinced me. I thought the point of using my name was to establish credibility, but since that seems not to be the case, I no longer feel the need to use my login to post. If I choose to contribute, I can always be a guest.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 5:15 pm
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dmax
Unfictologist

Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1387
Location: Location: Location!

Diandra wrote:
dmax wrote:
jamesi's said it already, but someone might have missed it: Isn't the only point behind having a name on the comment to allow someone to attack the commentator rather than the stated issue?

Which is what's happening, anyway. Rolling Eyes


Well, dmax, you're convinced me. I thought the point of using my name was to establish credibility, but since that seems not to be the case, I no longer feel the need to use my login to post. If I choose to contribute, I can always be a guest.


That's the difference between you and me. If I wanted my posts to have credibility, I know better than to use my real name. Then, folks might be able take it seriously.

And did i deny that I'm line yet?
Cool

PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:39 pm
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Gupfee
Site Admin


Joined: 22 Sep 2002
Posts: 817
Location: Massachusetts

Diandra wrote:
Well, dmax, you're convinced me. I thought the point of using my name was to establish credibility, but since that seems not to be the case, I no longer feel the need to use my login to post. If I choose to contribute, I can always be a guest.


And again, someone is mixing up ARGN with the Unforums. You can't make an argument against an article on one website by using the example of another website that although is similar, is a different site that runs by different rules.

This is getting a little tiring. Please, everyone stop comparing apples to oranges.

Can we please discuss Line's article (and it IS an article, vetted by the site administrator, NOT a random post by some unknown) in terms of ARGN, and leave the Unforums out of it? (except as a vehicle for discussion, obviously.)

PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:28 pm
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Caterpillar
Unfictologist


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 1887
Location: cem's otherbody

Well I guess I'll put my two cents in on this article.....for what it's worth.
(which is probably about
-$437.50 Cdn)

I just wanna play.

Having a PM out (or in) is only one of the factors for me, and if the game is interesting/fun/intriguing enough - I'm not even entirely sure it would matter. I guess it might depend on how you define "out".

My first ARG was CTW. Did I mind that everyone knew who the PM was? Not at all. It was like reading a book and knowing who the author was.

I also played Acheron and CTFM. I didn't know who the PM(s) were, but didn't enjoy those games any more or less than CTW. I enjoyed them differently however, and for different reasons.

I guess my point is that if a game is good, then a game is good.
If a game is going to thrive, I don't think it will be due to a PM being behind an iron curtain......but rather because of a great game basis (and this can be argued to be many different things in the eyes of many different people).

ALL games will not interest ALL people.

I also think interacting on a consistent basis with a PM and knowing who the PM is, are two entirely different kettles of fish.

I don't mind knowing who wrote the book, I just don't want its author telling me how I should interpret each chapter.

My opinion is colored by my personailty, I find it incredibly hard to suspend my reality for an alternate one. But I can follow a great story and really love a good puzzle, but never for one second do I think there isn't a PM behind whichever game I happen to be playing. Does knowing (or not knowing) his or her name make a difference to me or my enjoyment? Not at all.

Do I get any change back?

PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:39 pm
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konamouse
Official uF Dietitian


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 8010
Location: My own alternate reality

Caterpillar wrote:

My first ARG was CTW. Did I mind that everyone knew who the PM was? Not at all. It was like reading a book and knowing who the author was.


Excellent point! The PM is like the author of a book. I like this analogy. I choose to read some books simply because I am familiar with the author's previous work (hence, should Dave unveil another ARG, I'm gonna be one of the first in line to sign up for the fun).

Quote:
ALL games will not interest ALL people.


As not all books will interest ALL people (believe it or not, there are some people out there who do NOT like Harry Potter).

Quote:
I don't mind knowing who wrote the book, I just don't want its author telling me how I should interpret each chapter.


I really hated having an English teacher in high school who gave me a D on a essay I was assigned to write about a Shakespeare play; because I had a different (not WRONG) interpretation of a character than she did.

Quote:
My opinion is colored by my personailty, I find it incredibly hard to suspend my reality for an alternate one. But I can follow a great story and really love a good puzzle, but never for one second do I think there isn't a PM behind whichever game I happen to be playing. Does knowing (or not knowing) his or her name make a difference to me or my enjoyment? Not at all.


I have a very similar point of view to yours.
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r u a Sammeeeee? I am Forever!


PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:48 pm
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catherwood
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee

Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 4109
Location: Silicon Valley, CA

My viewpoint is colored by the fact that I do not regularly visit www.argn.com

I only knew about this "editorial" because of a post here in the unforums. I formed my opinion about what was said by seeing it in the context of a post. This post isn't about my opinion of its content, but about the apparent confusion over HOW people should respond/react to it.

Today was the first time I went to see it in its original context on ARGN. It does NOT look like an editorial at all. It appears in the center column where I expect to see news, unbiased informative pieces, and announcements from the ARGN staff. No, I didn't notice the 'byline' at all -- it's a blog tag, and I tend to skim right past that stuff; besides, since I assume that area is reserved for ARGN staff, it didn't really matter to me who posted it. Also, since I do not know who is on the ARGN staff, I can only assume that line is authorized to use the blogging system to post in that area as a staff member. ARGN presents itself to me like a newspaper, and that's how I read it.

Perhaps if I were a regular reader of that site, I would know more about its mission and its sections. I can only form my own opinion based on what was said, apart from where it was said, how it was said, or who may have said it. (and you can ask me for that opinion in chat.)

PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:28 pm
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

Happy Recap

I got a little lost following the thread when I read it again. So, to briefly summarize:

An article stating that in a perfect ARG world PM's should stay behind an "iron curtain", speculating as to why they do not and exhorting players to force them back behind the curtain appears in ARGN. People respond to that article when it is posted at the start of this thread. It seems that:

* People have different tolerance levels for PM anonymity, or lack thereof, and different feelings about how important PM anonymity is for them to enjoy a game.

* People disagree about the need for the author of the article to be identified in a way that makes their identity recognizable. And as to the purpose of an author being identified.

*People disagree with the author about the assumptions made by the author as to why PMs may choose to identify themselves. (How much people are disagreeing with each other about the validity of those assumptions isn't clear to me.)

*People agree that the genre is evolving.

*And, one I didn't know, the vast majority of players do not post or chat.

Some other discussion about the difference between this site and ARGN, the editorial nature of the article and, my personal favorite, the TOS for this site weaves throughout the thread.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:30 am
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