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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[SPEC] Official XBOX Magazine
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XGameFusion
Boot

Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 28
Location: Dallas, TX

 		Thanks, Moja_Vera for pointing all of that out... exactly as you said nothing at this point has either intrinsically proven or disproven the possibility of a game or demo release at this point - end of discussion.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:35 am
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midas777
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Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 70
Location: Austin, Texas

 		Had to live life for a little and I still don't know how to copy other people's text. I have to agree with you.. regarding the Frankie thing, it is like everything said is gospel. I found the info on the OXM Pre-Holiday mag on the Bungie forums.. they are rabid and frothing..

Regarding the theory of Demo or Early Release.. hasn't been proven or disproven.. just word of mouth and no one is going to ruin the surprise if there is one. I am really anxious to find out how all of this plays out though.. You know, I think all of the Frankie updates are staggered... so they may be further along than it is showing on the updates.. who knows - all spec. I look forward to the new info and if Nov 9th is the day.. well, we are that much closer to it. Interesting that NY Times came out with an article today mentioning Halo 2, I don't believe they have ever mentioned anything.. and ILB reference in the EGM latest issue.. interesting stuff.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:46 am
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago

 		People, y'all have got to keep your tempers in check, a little. Watch the font tags, watch yer vocabulary, and tone it down a little bit. The primary colors and Censored-slingin' are giving me a headache.

Occam's Razor notwithstanding, we could all use a little distributed effort spent on keeping the peace and promoting some chilling out. Go stick some plasma grenades to grunts in silent cartographer and come back here when your adrenaline's all wicked away, k?

PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 2:09 am
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XGameFusion
Boot

Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 28
Location: Dallas, TX

 		thank goodness someone finally sees through the Frankie and Ryan thing...

Just because they say it doesn't make it absolutely so. i reiterate, if indeed there is a demo/game release on the 24th, and it WERE to be the pennacle of the ARG, acknowledging it would totally screw the pooch.

take a step back, and think about the big picture.... what are the motives of the game's creators? it's in their interest to keep it going...
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 4:58 am
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SuperJerms
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Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 537
Location: indiana
Quote:
You know just as much as everyone else, and that info just happens to be exactly what bungie and M$ have fed you. Your spec isn't any wiser or more factual then anyone elses. You don't have privledged information...a lot of you guys act like kids and know it all snobs


Nothing personal, but I don't think that DM is being snobby here. I can see that you're frustrated, but what you said is kinda rough, man.

If you don't want to believe what the folks at bungie said, think about some of the following facts we all have, and ask yourself if doing all of this to announce a demo on tuesday would be a sound business decision for bungie/microsoft:


What logical and factual things do we know?

Fact: Bungie will ban people on their fan forum for trying to add credence to the Aug. 24th demo idea.

Fact: Melissa is a despondent, shipwrecked AI from the future, who wouldn't even know what an xbox is, let alone what the game halo2 is or the magazine is. She wants to commit homicide whenever someone updates a website, and she is the one providing coords.

Fact: Microsoft has already spent quite a bit of money on this project.
It features a multiple scripted sequences, honey shipped to individuals, a complex website, evidence of thorough pre-planning, at least one PM who is monitoring the ARG community's progress, a decent amount of fact-checking and error correcting legwork, actors, and possibly some event being coordinated at 210 sites nationwide.
All of this was spent on building a story that didn't correlate with halo at all until it got into advanced stages.

Fact: On more than one occasion, the PuppetMasters have directly responded to these forums from within the game via Dana's Blog, even using players in-game names instead of real ones in some cases ( here's an example ).

Fact: You will not find any non-ARG advertising campaign where the entire mass media campaign will addresses an individual consumer, adapting to his or her needs in real time, simply because that consumer initiated contact. The people who received honey jars have been nearly unanimous in expressing that they want the 24th to be the start of Beast II, and that they would be very disappointed with a demo disc.

Fact: Very few people have declared their intent to be at these sites. If the promotion is focused on an on-site giveaway, only a fraction of players will show up, fans in this and other communities will have been consistently lied to (and will be alienated), the cost of delivery to each site would run in the hundreds of dollars, the game will have been totally inaccessible to those outside of the GPS sites (including many international players and many US players who are far from the site) or with jobs.

Fact: When experts say that gorilla marketing campaigns are less expensive than mass media campaigns, they are still assuming that the gorilla campaigns will be in the mid six-figure range.

**Fact: Even with wildly generous figures, this campaign would cost x15 as much per person compared to just having the demo included in the next months OXM.**






**Here's my math on that point**

Example A: Just surprising magazine readers with mass-produced, unannounced or once-advertised demos would deliver as many demos as magazines are sold. Lets say 100,000 magazines, one $2500 ad (we'll assume that they pay double the fee for that sized ad in my city's 50,000 circulated newspaper, despite the fact that MS would be running this ad in their own magazine) and $500 in discs...30 cents per person (not to mention that each person pays for the magazine, so this is just 10 cents less profit on each sale).

Example B:Doing this campaign to release a limited number of demos, to ARG players only. Let's assume lots of people show up--100 people at each of the 210 sites, 21,000 total and lets assume a ridiculously low campaign price of $100,000...$4.75 per person (and no mag sale to recoup price).

A is 1/15th the cost of B, and A reaches x4.75 more people.
In reality, the figure would be more like A is 1/300th the cost and reaches x30 more people.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 6:23 am
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colin
Entrenched

Joined: 13 Oct 2003
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Location: Australia
SuperJerms wrote:


Nothing personal, but I don't think that DM is being snobby here. I can see that you're frustrated, but what you said is kinda rough, man.

If you don't want to believe what the folks at bungie said, think about some of the following facts we all have, and ask yourself if doing all of this to announce a demo on tuesday would be a sound business decision for bungie/microsoft:


I've got nothing to add. Just wanted to say that was a good post Smile

PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 6:39 am
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vpisteve
Asshatministrator


Joined: 30 Sep 2002
Posts: 2441
Location: 1987

 		Yes, great post, SuperJerms! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:52 am
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waitin4myconfmailslowpoke
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 		You forget the Halo Lan community. If 1 player receives a demo, 10 players get to play it. If that player only gets to play the game for 15 minutes, every one of his friends will relive each second. Not only do we connect with each other Online, like ARG players, we get together weekly to play Halo in the same house.

Halo 2 has already been played by MANY people outside of Bungie and their testing staff, at Video Game Expos and Tournaments. These players spread their information like wildfire, going into the most minute detail. Bungie is sponsoring a Halo 2 tournament at the Seattle MLG event (Major Console Game Tournament), sometime in late August. Make no mistake, Halo 2 has been, is being, and will be played long before it officially releases.

I don't know if they'll release a Demo, let people play the game for 10 minutes, or just laugh at us on the phone for driving to BFE. I believe, however, that Bungie and M$ will attempt to satiate the ARG players desire for a good ending and a Halo players desire for more h2.

Besides, the input of Halo players in this ARG must have been desired if Microsoft allowed the ILB link to be displayed at the end of a Halo 2 Theatrical Trailer. You all saw what happened when they did that, a crushing wave of ARG n0obs.

-infamousX

PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 2:20 pm
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stillwating
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 		Correction: Halo 2 was played at the MLG Tournament in Seattle this weekend.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:45 am
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XGameFusion
Boot

Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 28
Location: Dallas, TX

 		still wanting to debate this... wether or not you ARG guys want to hear it... i'm just trying to present you with options you may have written off as impossible....

to answer your post, SuperJerms....

Quote:
Fact: Bungie will ban people on their fan forum for trying to add credence to the Aug. 24th demo idea.

-where is this stated? - could we have a link to their policy on that please?

Quote:
Fact: Melissa is a despondent, shipwrecked AI from the future, who wouldn't even know what an xbox is, let alone what the game halo2 is or the magazine is. She wants to commit homicide whenever someone updates a website, and she is the one providing coords.

-this doesn't prove anything, or contradict any of our arguments... the fact that melissa is oblivious to Xbox users is irrelevant, and leads to no contradiction of any kind...



Quote:
Fact: Microsoft has already spent quite a bit of money on this project.
It features a multiple scripted sequences, honey shipped to individuals, a complex website, evidence of thorough pre-planning, at least one PM who is monitoring the ARG community's progress, a decent amount of fact-checking and error correcting legwork, actors, and possibly some event being coordinated at 210 sites nationwide.
All of this was spent on building a story that didn't correlate with halo at all until it got into advanced stages.

- once again, this still shows no contradiction to a possible demo release. and, the game HAS been tied to halo for as long as it has been around. it just wasn't made blatently obvious at first.



Quote:
Fact: You will not find any non-ARG advertising campaign where the entire mass media campaign will addresses an individual consumer, adapting to his or her needs in real time, simply because that consumer initiated contact. The people who received honey jars have been nearly unanimous in expressing that they want the 24th to be the start of Beast II, and that they would be very disappointed with a demo disc.

- again, the launch of The Beast II wouldn't contradict a demo disc release on the same date.
-Ex. statement 1 - People were mailed honey jars.
statement 2 - These people want The Beast II to start on Aug 24and would be disappointed with anything else but a launch of Beast II.
conclusion - There cannot be a demo disc release on Aug 24.
this is flawed logic... just because they launch a demo disc on 8/24 doesn't mean that they can't ALSO launch Beast II. In fact, if they were to launch a demo, it would most likely either tie into the arg in some way, or continue to try to generate interest in the ARG.





Quote:
Fact: Very few people have declared their intent to be at these sites. If the promotion is focused on an on-site giveaway, only a fraction of players will show up, fans in this and other communities will have been consistently lied to (and will be alienated), the cost of delivery to each site would run in the hundreds of dollars, the game will have been totally inaccessible to those outside of the GPS sites (including many international players and many US players who are far from the site) or with jobs.

- I do not believe that there will be any kind of on-site giveaway... i plan on going to the coordinates near my house on tuesday, though, to see if anything ARG related happens. Releasing the demo at some coordinates seems silly, but having something ARG related just might happen. i i think that if this is the case, and they really are launching Beast II, Microsoft would want to include as many people as possible. here's why.

- As you said, this costs a lot of money, even if it's not comparable to launching a full-out ad campaign. Why spend all this money and effort to relay a game that costs *nothing* to play to a small, niche group of internet users? honestly, before this ARG, i had never heard of an ARG. so, if, indeed this is the Beast II, Microsoft would want to have a larger audience, especially because the driving factor behind creating an ARG is promotion. Can you name a better way to find players for a (MS) ARG, in a frugal manner, than to draw the interest of rabid halo 2 fans? this is why i'm here, i came to find out about Halo 2, but then got hooked on the ARG part. i think hundreds of other players will agree. In a single half-second of film (which is extremely ARG appropriate Smile ) MS has created themselves thousands of new players..... many of us "n00bs" are going to these coordinates to see what is going to happen. i plan on dragging my camera to take pics...



i will not argue with your "cost" statement, as the above information would disregard the possibility of an on-site demo release to ARG players ONLY. that is a rather silly idea... besides, from what i understand, ARG's are a relatively new form of gaming... i am sure that there are many twists and turns that will be totally new to ARG gaming. The rules are not set in stone... do your best to keep an open mind, and consider all of the possibilities.

to sum it all up, a 24th demo release and coinciding launch of Beast II are in no way, shape, or form contradictory.

jeez, my fingers are tired...
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:52 am
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Nightmare Tony
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Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 824
Location: Meadowbrook

 		are you willing to do major apologies with egg on your face if its man ingame clue instead of an H2 demo disc giveaway? The staggered timing more and more points to an autodialer setup rather than a physical giveaway. It also doesnt make too much logistical sense in terms of a flash crowd creation and a news reporter handy at each location.

Its like 42, a roll of a dice for Tuesday, isnt it....
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:08 am
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XGameFusion
Boot

Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 28
Location: Dallas, TX

 		i am not saying "we are getting a demo disc" -- i am only reminding you guys not to be so naive. i DO NOT expect to have a disc thrust into my hands at the coordinate in Garland, TX tomorrow... i am only saying that just because there is a major in game event taking place tomorrow, doesn't mean we CAN'T have a demo, too!

Some of us here want to play BOTH GAMES... imagine that.

seriously, when did speculation become wrong, and worthy of flame in the ARG world?

Read the whole post before flaming next time....
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:23 am
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Nightmare Tony
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 		not a flame, dude, just a pointing out of the perils of a one track mind. We all suffer from it, basically from seeing from our points of view.

Nothing is discounted, nothing is for sure except for the times and locations. After that, anything goes.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:30 am
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firefox
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Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 333

 		flame ON! haha, but seriously, if its spec everyone (and i dont mean EVERYone, just the feasible spec's,cough alien invasion cough Razz) has a viable opinion. atm we know its halo universe related, and so anything could happen! pointless to argue what could be Rolling Eyes argue what is!

were in pre-game, so id chance on there being like a physical item to collect at each location- this item is one of many which together add to the solving of the game - or it might be a copy of whatever everyone gets--
just as easy it could be a transmission of something or anything!

yes even demo copy of halo 2 - although that wouldn't be in-game Wink

and this is a game- as yet either removed or connected to halo 2. i dont care either way, i think both arg's and halo is kool Cool

PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:33 am
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SuperJerms
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Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 537
Location: indiana
XGameFusion wrote:
Quote:
Fact: Bungie will ban people on their fan forum for trying to add credence to the Aug. 24th demo idea.

-where is this stated? - could we have a link to their policy on that please?


You bet your bottom-dollar, mister.

Quote:
Rules for ILoveBees Discussion.

It's clear that some rules need to be made and enforced. The ilovebees speculation can be good, but it's getting out of hand. Almost as bad as the out of control discussion is the people complaining about it. So, here are the new rules for ILoveBees discussion.

1. ALL ilovebees discussion must take place in New Mombasa. ILB threads started in any of the other forums will be locked. Note that I said locked, not moved.

2. Any threads that are made that are repetitive and offer nothing to the speculation will be locked.

3. If discussion in a thread gets out of hand (IE, speculation goes from being decent, thought out ideas to worthless drivel), the thread will be locked. The exception to this rule is if spammers attack a thread, in which case the mods will do what we can to clean up the mess.

4. Those of you that thought that the countdown on ILB.com pointed at an early release of Halo 2, Frankie O'Connor has said this:

Halo 2 comes out on Nov. 9th or Nov. 11th for the UK. It does NOT come out on Aug 24th. You know what does come out on Aug. 24th? Some OXM special which does NOT, and I repeat does NOT have a Halo 2 demo on it. No clue how that rumor gained so much momentum. But to reiterate, Halo 2 comes out Nov. 9th or Nov.11th for the UK.

Further, this was said in a later update:

I've sorta been following the fuss – too busy to really get into it, but Halo 2 will still release on Nov. 9th in the US and most other places, and Nov. 11th in the UK. Nor will we release a playable demo, anytime soon. In fact, we're so busy with the game that there's no chance we'll even think about a playable demo until after Halo 2 ships. And that is official. It isn't happening folks. The game is however, happily on schedule for November 9th.

Further still, Achronos has also commented that Halo 2 is not coming out on the 24th in various replies to threads that consider other possibilities. The bottom line is that this means Bungie's official stance is that Halo 2 is NOT coming out August 24th, nor any other time except November 9th (11th in the UK). As such, people that make the suggestion that the game IS being released on the 24th are insinuating that Bungie employees are lying. Bungie doesn't like that. Therefore, any threads trying to discuss false release dates such as August 24th will be locked or deleted without notice, and repeat offenders will be blacklisted from the forums.

Note that this does not mean ILoveBees discussion is banned from the forums. Just discussion about false release dates.

The moderators will be enforcing these rules with extreme prejudice. ANY inane threads about ilovebees will be locked, and a explanation may or may not be provided.

Those of you that aren't interested in the ILoveBees mystery, don't read the threads, it's that simple. -S

(emphasis mine)

As for the points you have that aren't addressed by that, please understand that ARG'ers will not tolerate a sloppy game (meaning anything that takes advantage of all the time and effort players have expended, cheapens the game experience, is problematically out-of-place in the story or game, or anything requires massive suspension of disbelief). Heck, we have folks ready to quit playing just because of the long set-up time and absence of puzzles thus far. Suffice it to say that if the PM's end the game now or do something that is not at all matched to the story (unless it involves dancing robots or monkies), it would probably cause a good 75% of us to quit playing. And they know this.

Look around at other posts from the [SPEC]demo crowd, you'll notice an assumption that the demo release would be an endgame. If you can create a spec for how M can fit a demo release into the story, you will notice much less occurance of the lead balloon effect with your posts.

If you are saying that the demo release is a seperate, concurrent event to the axons going hot (and that the demos are unrelated to ILB), fine by me. In that case, end of discussion...long, passionate posts about topics unrelated to ILB are grounds for receiving fresh trout.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:20 am
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