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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[SPEC] The Durga<->Melissa connection through time
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Brink
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 		Metaphorically, all of this would make sense since Melissa is the Queen, and SP is a princess. Logically, you'd have to believe that SP is part of or came from her in some way. Otherwise she'd just be 'Cindy', or some such.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:37 pm
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MeKiwi
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 		Re: The rest of the gang ...
MeKiwi wrote:
What's the easiest way to take out a Queen?


Wait a minute... I remember reading someone's post about varrao mites killing queen bees... I think it was here... so, what can we use for mites?

If we could somehow infect Dana's computer with a virus and cause a reboot, would the recovery software be able to replace Melissa with SP on the MBR?? Or do I just have no idea what I am talking about?

Or both? ^_^

EDIT: make the dang link work right... lol

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:39 pm
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raw19
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 		Varrao Mites.

oh man, that's good.

Where do we get an electronic version of the Varrao Mite? And if we get it, whos to say once the princess becomes Queen and connects to the memories that she won't get infected by the Flea as well.
I think we have to convince the Princess to kill the Flea. Then we infest the Queen with Varrao Mites. Princess takes over.

simple.

oh, wait. it's not.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:47 pm
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Extrasonic
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 		Re: The Operator, Durga, and the Queen
xnbomb -

Well written, but I think you may contradict yourseelf. Your theory seems to rest on this assumption:

xnbomb wrote:
At this point, I need to present a conjecture that is anything but airtight: The Covenant bug is present already, lurking in the shadows of her mind and influencing the Operator. The Operator knows the music is from Earth, and she also probably knows that Jason communicates with his son Jersey and sends him music. The Covenant bug wants nothing more than to find out where Earth is located. So he makes a small, seemingly harmless effort to influence the Operator to do something she wouldn't do otherwise: He influences the Operator to decide that she'd like to listen to more of Jason's music that she likes, the music Jason has sent to Jersey. This is analogous to the Pious Flea influencing the Queen on to 'build those roads' and do a lot of revealing instead of resisting. He can see what she is up to, and tweaks it just a little to serve his purposes too.

This doesn't work, on a couple of levels.
  • An intelligence officer working deep in enemy territory on board an intelligence ship with a different, but equally covert mission doesn't make transmissions to Earth, when the location of Earth is the one piece of information that humanity holds as sacred and as secret as possible. See: Cole Protocol. As you say yourself:

    xnbomb wrote:
    I imagine the Operator as fairly well contained in her vessel at the beginning of our story. The vessel is somewhat incommunicado as it is on a intelligence-gathering mission, and for that sort of thing, usually you don't want to give away your position, so you don't do a lot of transmitting, and your allies don't transmit to you very often because you don't want enemies to intercept an incoming communication that gives away your position.

  • It's possible that the Flea made some sort of connection between jazz and Earth, but there was no signal for the Flea to get Melissa to follow; again to quote your post:

    xnbomb wrote:
    Durga wrote:
    Father Jason is a Corporal in the Signal Corps, attached to Naval intelligence. Radio beacon deployment program. He left you the material currently playing over this rooms audio server's.
    (emphasis added)

    The Castaway left Jersey some jazz, he didn't send it.
The combination of slipspace (which already has wierd temporal properties) and the mysterious device, though, is a good explanation for potential time-travel - I just don't think the "Durga == a piece of Melissa gone to Earth following a transmission from the Castaway" piece holds up to scrutiny.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:51 pm
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Atrophied
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 		Re: The rest of the gang ...
MeKiwi wrote:
If we could somehow infect Dana's computer with a virus and cause a reboot, would the recovery software be able to replace Melissa with SP on the MBR??


Are you seriously considering sending a virus to the PMs? or did I read that all wrong?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:52 pm
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Brink
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 		Who says we want to supplant Melissa? Maybe we want to help her, not destroy her and put the Princess in her place.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:56 pm
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Pants
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 		Who are the heros/villans?
MeKiwi wrote:
What's the easiest way to take out a Queen?
... I remember reading someone's post about varrao mites killing queen bees...


I'll be brief, because I know that this is dancing very close to the edge of OT. I just want to register my gut feelings about our local characters, as Raw and MeKiwi got me thinking. (And Brink too, for his support of the incumbent.)

I don't like that Flea. Not one bit. He worries me. I'd feel better if he were squashed. I think we can trust SP, and Melissa as well. (More the former, really, than the latter, as Melissa seems to have hickeys. Not a good sign, for me.)

Raw, I believe, was sounding out SP to ger her impression on succession. Drastic proposal, but the idea may generate useful feedback.

What do we want? People are clamboring for new puzzles, and yet we're sitting here very carefully, recieving and not rocking the boat. I'd like to make this drama a little more like the old school melodramas. Bad guy on stage? Boo and hiss! Yell advice to the actors. We may have more agency than we think.

Moderators: If this walks to far away from the going topic, please to move it and/or new-topic it.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 6:10 pm
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xnbomb
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 		Re: The Operator, Durga, and the Queen
Extrasonic wrote:
An intelligence officer working deep in enemy territory on board an intelligence ship with a different, but equally covert mission doesn't make transmissions to Earth, when the location of Earth is the one piece of information that humanity holds as sacred and as secret as possible.

My point is that the Covenant virus gets the Operator to make the transmission when she normally would not do so, and piggybacks a ride. I don't think the Covenant virus is worried about getting discovered or caught in the act, and thereby losing the advantage that he would gain should he manage to obtain the desired intelligence undetected. The Operator and Capt. Greene are already pretty certain of its existance in the ship's systems and its identity. The Covenant virus would have nothing to lose by getting the Operator and itself sent to Earth, and everything to gain at this point. So why wouldn't the Covenant virus do this exactly? If I understand you correctly, your objection rests on the virus remaining undetected and not doing anything to compromise its presence, but it already has been detected by the Operator because she knows something is awry, so it would be unconstrained in this regard.

Extrasonic wrote:
The Castaway left Jersey some jazz, he didn't send it.

Whether he left it or sent it, the Jason-Jersey connection is one that the Operator would be interested in and might just follow up on. The Operator makes a point of how listening to the Castaway's music with him made her feel real. Is it so hard to believe that she'd want more of that to remind her of the experience, and that under the influence of a virus she might make some poor judgements about the relative importance of satisfying that desire compared to not comprimising her mission? The Operator actually seems attracted to the Castaway, and might want to learn more about him. Given the Operator's propensity for finding information that interests her, I don't find it at all hard to believe that she'd follow this path. You think it's a coincidence that Durga, a very Operator-like digital entity, shows up on Jersey's doorstep sometime after the Operator has a drink with his dad, the Castaway? That seems far-fetched to me.

I notice you haven't objected to the only really important part of my speculation when it comes to The Operator ~ Durga. That is, that Durga could be a part of the Operator but does not know this by virtue of the fact that she cannot communicate with the rest of herself without a slipspace link being active. If we put aside whether or not she follows a transmission by the Castaway (which was not precisely my point anyways), that part of it stands on its own alright. Your objection seems to be based on constraints on the Covenant virus' behavior that seem misapplied to me in this case, and how Jersey and his dad might or might not communicate, which is actually not critical. The critical points are:

-The Operator is infected by a Covenant virus
-The Covenant virus could make the Operator do things she would not otherwise do
-The Operator can use network connections to move through/access networked systems
-The Operator could move/travel from the spacecraft to Earth using slipstream packets
-The Operator meets the Castaway and enjoys her time with him
-Sometime later, Durga appears on the Castaway's son's doorstep not knowing who she is or why she is there, a state consistent with a subset process (Durga) being cut off from its master process (the Operator) by virtue of there not being an open slipstream link between them

By the way Extrasonic, I appreciate and welcome criticism. There are aspects of my theory that rest on assumptions that are at this point quite subjective. I don't expect you, or anyone else for that matter, to agree with my ideas. However, the particular objections you have raised do not diminish the possibility of my speculation being correct, they merely touch on a couple of aspects of it that are not central to its functioning properly.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 6:29 pm
Last edited by xnbomb on Thu Sep 02, 2004 6:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MeKiwi
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 		Re: The rest of the gang ...
Atrophied wrote:
MeKiwi wrote:
If we could somehow infect Dana's computer with a virus and cause a reboot, would the recovery software be able to replace Melissa with SP on the MBR??


Are you seriously considering sending a virus to the PMs? or did I read that all wrong?


Sure! Got any handy? Heh. Dunce

<psst -- and just in case you still couldn't tell, no, I was not serious... unless that's really what we're supposed to do! Laughing >

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 6:36 pm
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raw19
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 		Listening to Goodbye.wav cooberates our theory pretty well.

We find out the Apacalypso is in lunar orbit, which gives the Operator the chance to hop on down to Earth (Extrasonic, read my post at the bottom of page 4. That should clear up your problems with xnbomb's theory)

The old man on the phone says that he was cutoff because of a communications disruption. This puts the Apacalypso entering orbit around the same time as the comm distruption. As [SPEC]'d before, the comm disruption was caused by whatever sent The Operator back through time.

Here's how I see it:
-the Apacalypso enters lunar orbit.
-The Operator, under the Flea's influence, takes this opportunity to "beam" herself down to Earth.
-Interference with the Crystal in the cargo hold and the Operator get split and sent back through time.
-The intereference with the crystal also causes the comm disruption.


EDIT: Wait, is there evidence the Operator was on the Apacalypso? or did I just pull that from nowhere?

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 6:39 pm
Last edited by raw19 on Thu Sep 02, 2004 6:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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GunsmithCat
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 		Very well thought out, but...

xnbomb wrote:

I think that's one piece of the puzzle. The Operator could potentially move across the vast expanse of space to access distant systems by slipstream communication. But if she did so, the part of herself that she sent would be cut off from the rest of her. It would be an asynchronous and disconnected instance of herself until it was able to reestablish contact with the rest of her.


I didn't get that from her slipstream analysis at all. Router software, for example, does not travel my computer to analyze packets. Same with Melissa. She can analyze outbound transmissions (and as a spy AI, it would make sense for her to) and decode incoming transmissions, but we don't have any indication that she can willing travel across slipstream herself.

Flea apparently can, because that's how arrives - encoded within Covenant transmissions.

However, the Halo mythos also doesn't support the notion. Cortana must be placed in a physical construct to be carried around. She can hack into nearby networks and have a peek, but it's more similar to Durga hacking into chatternets and listening on to the happenings.


How The Operator gets on Earth, possibly on Jersey's computer, onto ILB, is all a huge plot hole for the story so far. Jersey should be just like Kamal, not even aware of her/Durga's existence, if she was just hacking into his system - but he's not. She seems to be -there-. Somehow.

I am leaning that SP/Melissa/Durga are all connected, but making the connections seems to require evidence we don't have yet.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 6:43 pm
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MeKiwi
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raw19 wrote:

Here's how I see it:
-the Apacalypso enters lunar orbit.
-The Operator, under the Flea's influence, takes this opportunity to "beam" herself down to Earth.
-Interference with the Crystal in the cargo hold and the Operator get split and sent back through time.
-The intereference with the crystal also causes the comm disruption.


Okay, question: where and when does the Cap'n Greene/Operator conversation take place? If it takes place BEFORE the Apocalypso enters lunar orbit, why does Captain Greene allow the Apocalypso to enter anywhere near the vicinity of Earth knowing that her shipboard AI is infected with a (most likely) Convenant virus?? But if the conversation takes place AFTER the Apocalypso enters orbit, then it would strike me that the Captain Greene/Operator conversation would be rather one sided, seeing as how the Operator beamed herself down to Earth...

Sorry if I sound like I'm trying to tear apart your theory, I'm not -- I'm just unable to reconcile these problems myself and hope you can do it (since you've been so good at it before! Heh).

- MK

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 6:49 pm
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MeKiwi
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GunsmithCat wrote:
...but we don't have any indication that she can willing travel across slipstream herself.

However, the Halo mythos also doesn't support the notion. Cortana must be placed in a physical construct to be carried around. She can hack into nearby networks and have a peek, but it's more similar to Durga hacking into chatternets and listening on to the happenings.


Good point, GC. So if it is true that the Operator cannot travel through slipspace, we're gonna have to come up with another explanation of how she got "warped" to our time (assuming she actually did, of course.)

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 6:53 pm
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raw19
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MeKiwi wrote:
raw19 wrote:

Here's how I see it:
-the Apacalypso enters lunar orbit.
-The Operator, under the Flea's influence, takes this opportunity to "beam" herself down to Earth.
-Interference with the Crystal in the cargo hold and the Operator get split and sent back through time.
-The intereference with the crystal also causes the comm disruption.


Okay, question: where and when does the Cap'n Greene/Operator conversation take place? If it takes place BEFORE the Apocalypso enters lunar orbit, why does Captain Greene allow the Apocalypso to enter anywhere near the vicinity of Earth knowing that her shipboard AI is infected with a (most likely) Convenant virus?? But if the conversation takes place AFTER the Apocalypso enters orbit, then it would strike me that the Captain Greene/Operator conversation would be rather one sided, seeing as how the Operator beamed herself down to Earth...

Sorry if I sound like I'm trying to tear apart your theory, I'm not -- I'm just unable to reconcile these problems myself and hope you can do it (since you've been so good at it before! Heh).

- MK


I say the conversation takes place before.

[from goodbye.wav] When (that guy) tells (that other guy) that a ship dopped in to Lunar orbit, the other guys says "a ship?" as in he wasn't expecting a ship.

The Operator operated a ship right? If she operated the Apacalypso, and is under the influence of the Flea, is it possible she took the ship to Earth under his influence?

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 6:57 pm
Last edited by raw19 on Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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xnbomb
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GunsmithCat wrote:
Router software, for example, does not travel my computer to analyze packets. Same with Melissa. She can analyze outbound transmissions (and as a spy AI, it would make sense for her to) and decode incoming transmissions, but we don't have any indication that she can willing travel across slipstream herself.

This really depends on just what the Operator is, and how she works, and those or two things we certainly don't know. My speculation is designed to make sense out of how at least two digital entities that are very similar and apparently are connected in some way (The Queen clearly has access to Durga's data, and Durga seems to have some bees buzzing around her head) could be related to one another. I don't know if we can understand the Operator in terms of today's digital technology, she might be something well beyond that.

GunsmithCat wrote:
However, the Halo mythos also doesn't support the notion. Cortana must be placed in a physical construct to be carried around. She can hack into nearby networks and have a peek, but it's more similar to Durga hacking into chatternets and listening on to the happenings.

It may be that an entity like the Operator has to be somewhere in particular (i.e. inhabiting a single system) and can only be in that place at any given time. I don't know myself, and I wonder if anyone but the PMs do understand her nature Smile . I can't see how a 21st century webserver, with its available processing power and storage could contain her consciousness to any significant degree, but we're into the realm of science fiction at this point, so the only limit really is what you can imagine, until someone tells us definitely how it is because they imagined her.

GunsmithCat wrote:
How The Operator gets on Earth, possibly on Jersey's computer, onto ILB, is all a huge plot hole for the story so far.

Yep, and all I have offered is one way to fill in the blanks ... there are plenty of others. I am equally amenable to the notion that the Operator's ship is the Apocalypso, and she connects to Earthbound systems through something other than a slipstream connection, and Durga's corruption/confusion and the Queen's time travel are still a result of the object in the hold. The possibilities are endless Smile .

GunsmithCat wrote:
I am leaning that SP/Melissa/Durga are all connected, but making the connections seems to require evidence we don't have yet.

That's why speculation is for fun, and it is in no way definitive or correct Smile .
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 6:57 pm
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