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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[LOCKED] [META] Rant: Where are the puzzles? Is this ARG or ARS?
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Scumbag
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 214
Quote:

even without that the story does stand on its own two legs, making it accessible for those without Halo knowledge.


If I didn't know about the nature of Forerunner artifacts, I wouldn't understand why an AI from the future is here. If I didnt know the nature of Halo AIs, I wouldn't know that its an AI from the future that is inhabiting ILB. If I didnt know the nature of Bungie games, I wouldn't know the meaning behind the number of axons we have to make hot. If I didnt know Halo, I'd have no clue what slipspace is. If I didnt know Halo, I'd wonder why that lady Jersey is talking to has a strange voice reverb. If I didnt know Halo, I wouldn't understand why it is important that Jan's real name is Jannisary.

Thats off the top of my head.

I do agree that everything in ILB logically follows everything in-game, though. In-game knowledge for ILB started on August of 1993.

EDIT: I think I'm done with this thread, cuz even though I don't want it to, its going to get into that argument again, and I promised myself an' the mods that I ain't gonna.
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When I first got there and asked about I Love Bees, the attendant said I must be looking for some other theater... I said, "er....Halo 2 Preview Event?" and suddenly he understood what I meant.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:16 pm
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Dorkmaster
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 		Well, and Scumbag, not to disappoint ya, here I go down that path too...

I think that (in general) these things could be explained with standard sci-fi fare. Slipstream, not so much, same with glassing... however, things like A.I. obviously exist outside of a Halo reference. I mean, honestly, something "living" inside of a computer (where things like a webcam are its "meat" and such) that is intelligent? What else would you call that, but an artificial intelligence?

Anyway, I'm just being totally nitpicky. Of course, the game is enhanced by Halo lore. I think anyone disagreeing with that is lying or ignorant. I'm just thinking that what Sherpa is saying is that this game is cool because it can stand alone too. It may not be as detailed to the "Halo uninitiated" because you don't get all the cool references, but it's still playable and understandable without the Halo stuff (again, speaking in a broad sense)...

So I am NOT insinuating that Halo has nothing to do with this, simply that IF Halo had nothing to do with this, it would still work and be a valid, working game, cuz there are sci-fi "nods" everywhere here. I think that's a basic statement we can all agree upon, right? Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:13 pm
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CoffeeJedi
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 		i'd just like to point out that the ringing payphones reminded me of both "The Lawnmower Man", and "Neuromancer" (William Gibson's first ever cyber-punk novel)
what that has to do with the price of Tuna on Coral? hell if i know, i just thought it was interesting

this has been the most interesting thread lately i must say...........
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:56 pm
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Mazian
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CoffeeJedi wrote:
i'd just like to point out that the ringing payphones reminded me of both "The Lawnmower Man", and "Neuromancer" (William Gibson's first ever cyber-punk novel)
what that has to do with the price of Tuna on Coral? hell if i know, i just thought it was interesting

this has been the most interesting thread lately i must say...........


[OT] I thought it was Mona Lisa Overdrive, not Neuromancer where the phones rang at the behest of Case... Confused
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:19 pm
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chaotic_mind
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Scumbag wrote:
If I didnt know Halo, I'd wonder why that lady Jersey is talking to has a strange voice reverb.


I DO know Halo, and I wonder why that lady has a strange reverbastic voice. Actually, I don't, but it's not Halo that taught me to connect artificial voices with computer AIs. Blame the rest of sci-fi for that.

Luke P.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:17 pm
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SuperJerms
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Dorkmaster wrote:
I think that's a basic statement we can all agree upon, right? Mr. Green


Right. I think we are all on the same page by now about the IG vs. Haloverse argument. When it comes down to it, I can go watch the Lord of The Rings trilogy without ever reading up on The Hobbit or any other Middle Earth stuff. But I would be foolish to say those other sources are useless. For that matter, I could watch Return of the King without ever having seen Fellowship or Two Towers...cool enough, the movie would be self-contained, make sense, and be great overall. But I would be foolish to say the preceeding movies don't add a ton to the story.

Same issue here. The story is self-contained. Any good story should be, becuase this is entertainment not homework. I have a beef though, when others try and say not to bring the backstory into this. Sure, the backstory should probably not be necessary to solve a puzzle (unless there is a really good reason to try and unite the Halo and ARG community, and I highly doubt that was the PM's intention).

Purists (for lack of better term) would do well to keep in mind the point about the LotR movies. I think the same principle can apply here...a story is a story is a story. I think we are right to avoid diving into the Haloverse for puzzle solves, but it's unfair and unreasonable to try and squelch the Halo-related conversations (and yes, I think we all have seen this happen).

I think this, just like happened in the beast, has things to teach future PM's. Specifically, taking a really rich backstory and turning it into an ARG or ARS could have rather explosive results. Smile


Oh, and if I didn't know any better, it seems the PM's are directly mocking me for complaining about far-away axons.
girls_with_guns.wav wrote:
"I'm gonna have to go someplace noone ever goes...Africa, or Antartica, or....Indiana for God's sake!"


<shakes fist>
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:59 pm
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clamatius
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Joined: 24 Jul 2004
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Quote:
Any good story should be, becuase this is entertainment not homework.

Now kids, don't forget to answer those payphones. There will be a test!
*schoolbell rings*

(ok, ok, I couldn't resist it)
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:19 am
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krystyn
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Scumbag wrote:


If I didn't know about the nature of Forerunner artifacts, I wouldn't understand why an AI from the future is here. If I didnt know the nature of Halo AIs, I wouldn't know that its an AI from the future that is inhabiting ILB. If I didnt know the nature of Bungie games, I wouldn't know the meaning behind the number of axons we have to make hot. If I didnt know Halo, I'd have no clue what slipspace is. If I didnt know Halo, I'd wonder why that lady Jersey is talking to has a strange voice reverb. If I didnt know Halo, I wouldn't understand why it is important that Jan's real name is Jannisary.


Slipspace, time travel, and A.I.'s are all things that make sense in context to me. As for all the 7's, I'd find it curious, but it matters not a whit right now in terms of solving anything in this game - it appears to be a calling card for a video game company, nothing more. In the end, the 7's don't really matter. As for the # of axons, we still don't know, really, WHY 777. I don't care that it's a triple 'Bungie Number.' If it doesn't turn out to be something logically connected to our plot, I shall be annoyed at being drawn out of the immersion with such a meta nod without justification. I shall! Watch me stamp off in a huff!

Ahem.

I'm sorry, I have NO idea why knowing Halo gives you knowledge about the quality of Durga's voice. Am I missing something here?

And Janissary actually has an original historical context of its own - completely unrelated to Halo, just like Melissa means honeybee, just like Perdita means lost. The context still rules the day, and Halo background just serves to make everything a little meatier.

Without the Halo info, we'd still be in the same boat, puzzle-wise - we might come up with our own terminologies and logic solutions, but ultimately, the in-game context seems to be providing for itself just fine so far.

That may change in the future, depending on where this game goes. But right now, you don't actually need Halo knowledge to play this game. Some of it's been really, really interesting though, so that's cool with me.

PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:21 am
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Scumbag
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 		Oh what the hell. I'm bored, and the episodes of Scrubs I'm downloading are going to take forever. No mind that there's like 800,000,000,000 people online with the files, its going to download from 1 person at .043k a second. Need my Elliot fix, dammit.

Quote:

If it doesn't turn out to be something logically connected to our plot, I shall be annoyed at being drawn out of the immersion with such a meta nod without justification. I shall! Watch me stamp off in a huff!


Heh. Oh, its connected to the plot: Bungie is logically connected with the number 7.

Quote:

I'm sorry, I have NO idea why knowing Halo gives you knowledge about the quality of Durga's voice. Am I missing something here?


I had thought I wrote it clear enough, but without Halo knowledge, I'd have zero idea that this Durga lady is, in fact, an AI.

Quote:

And Janissary actually has an original historical context of its own - completely unrelated to Halo


And without Haloisms, pointless trivia. Janissary's full name is only relevent because the MC is a Spartan.

Quote:

Without the Halo info, we'd still be in the same boat, puzzle-wise - we might come up with our own terminologies and logic solutions, but ultimately, the in-game context seems to be providing for itself just fine so far.


Well, like I said, I disagree.
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When I first got there and asked about I Love Bees, the attendant said I must be looking for some other theater... I said, "er....Halo 2 Preview Event?" and suddenly he understood what I meant.
fphzont jnf ynhtuvat

PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:04 pm
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GunsmithCat
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Scumbag wrote:


Quote:

I'm sorry, I have NO idea why knowing Halo gives you knowledge about the quality of Durga's voice. Am I missing something here?


I had thought I wrote it clear enough, but without Halo knowledge, I'd have zero idea that this Durga lady is, in fact, an AI.


Eh? I'd think that was pretty evident by the fact that a) she took over a computer b) took out another AI c) takes out "bots" d) can look up data at amazing speeds e) Jersey certainly doesn't talk to her like another person, etc.

Not to mention that prior to the axons we've got plenty of info to look out for when it comes to AIs, and Durga fits those shoes as well.

Quote:

Quote:

And Janissary actually has an original historical context of its own - completely unrelated to Halo


And without Haloisms, pointless trivia. Janissary's full name is only relevent because the MC is a Spartan.


Actually that's still just pointless trivia. It doesn't necessarily help the story since Jan doesn't fit any known description of SPARTAN programs but is probably something completely different.

Quote:

Quote:

Without the Halo info, we'd still be in the same boat, puzzle-wise - we might come up with our own terminologies and logic solutions, but ultimately, the in-game context seems to be providing for itself just fine so far.


Well, like I said, I disagree.


Which you're clearly entitled to, but:

- No puzzle has required OOG knowledge to solve.
- No webpage or hidden information required OOG knowledge to solve.
- No plot point requires OOG to understand.

Now, that said - I would definitely put Halo stuff on the recommended reading list, because it helps frames specs and can constrain things in ways we know works for the Haloverse. Plus, it adds a whole new level of appreciation to the story. Kinda like seeing the original before a sequel.

PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:17 pm
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SuperJerms
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 		[quote="Scumbag"]Need my Elliot fix, dammit.
Quote:


My wife pointed out yesterday that Sophia sounds exactly like Elliot's actress.

[quote="GunSmithCat"]a) she took over a computer b) took out another AI c) takes out "bots" d) can look up data at amazing speeds e) Jersey certainly doesn't talk to her like another person, etc.

Don't forget that Jersey originally thought she was a pr0n advertisement.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:55 pm
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Dorkmaster
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 		Actually, Super that's not exactly true. He thought it was a "lost" porn bot... not an ad. That it was someone's limited um... well, that it would be, er.... Embarassed

Let's just say that it wasn't an ad. That it was a little more than that. Otherwise there's no justification for the line "for a good experience, the girls have to be real". In other words, this was an "unreal" girl from the start. Some sort of program or AI to start.

-DM
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:08 pm
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krystyn
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 		I don't need to know that Bungie is involved in order to help us tap into Melissa's inner child A.I. brain database healing seminar, or whatever.

Knowing 7 is a Bungie # doesn't justify those 7's in this game. In fact, the Princess has teased -us- for being obsessed with 7's. So I really don't see why knowing it's a Bungie number helps me any, because as far as we know, the company Bungie doesn't even figure into the plot of this game. It is a [META] reference only.

PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:44 pm
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Dorkmaster
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 		Just to jump in here and get back on topic...

(I'm sorry, cuz I did start this. Scumbag can vouch for me there...)

Anyway, I just read the thread pertaining to the CHUD review.... I disagree with the tone of that article. I reccomend reading it (unless you are of the age where bad language can get you in trouble... then DON'T read it.)

I just wanted to differentiate between the two discussions going on there and here.

Here, I mean to discuss why this is different from your stereotypical ARG. Yeah, there's a little disappointment in that, but we're accepting that and either continuing to play, or not continuing to play. But with that thread, it's essentially a complain-fest, and I don't agree... I personally think that while this is not what I would have dreamed, that for free, it's pretty good. Do I disagree with some design of the game? Yeah, I do, but I still value this game. It hasn't made me feel like I've been jerked around or anything... just that I've been wrong. But that's on me, not the Hive or whoever did this game....

Anyway, I just wanted to throw that in there, to see what you all thought, and to distinguish myself and this thread from that one. (not that I'm cutting myself off from those posters or anything, just saying I disagree with their editorial there...)

-DM

edited to add linkage
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:58 pm
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CoffeeJedi
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 		not to be an elitest... but have you noticed that this thread is made up of intelligent people, most of whom [TALK ALOT] and [HAVE BEEN WASTING THEIR TIME ON THIS FOREVER]... and THAT thread is just a bunch [FRESH YOUNG FACES] [PARTICIPATING IN CONSTRUCTIVE CRITI- ah, i can't do it, they're just complaining!]?


edit: at DorkMaster's advice
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:02 pm
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