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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[LOCKED] [META] Rant: Where are the puzzles? Is this ARG or ARS?
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gheritt
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Joined: 25 Jul 2004
Posts: 58
raw19 wrote:
my point is that it was handing to us. When Durga getting preoccupied with bees, that is such a "magic word" to us that we should figure out that Durga IS ALREADY connected to Melissa.


I really don't understand your point, then, because I've seen people make the Durga/Melissa connection all over this board, and I think there are very few people who would argue that connection.

I think what you're saying is that we need to focus on what these stories tell us about Melissa's condition. I'd argue that we need to nail down the facts of the stories before we can do that. (For instance, who does the cop pull over and kill?) And that's what all the speculation going on is about.

Edit: And to keep this vaguely on topic, my complaint is that we can't nail down the facts of the stories until the PMs give us the rest of the sound files they're sitting on.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:04 pm
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Dorkmaster
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Zemat wrote:
"The Beast" was also made by a corporation. The same one that is making this game.

I don't know about you guys but I feel that the PMs are a little tired of the puzzle solving type of ARG and are trying to make a more detective like kind of game were situations have no definitive rules or solutions (remember SP complaining of us taking this as if it were some kind of puzzle game and started making some puzzles herself, which probably weren't planned, only for our amusement).


Zemat, I AM reading what you're writing... and I think that's my point. I'm still trying to figure out where this is headed... is this a game, or is it simply interactive fiction? If it's interactive fiction, that's fine, but then maybe they shouldn't have mailed the honeybear to ARGN, cuz then it's not an ARG... I guess I just want to see less fence-sitting, and see the PMs chose a side. Is this going to be easy and non-puzzling, or is it going to be an ARG. Like I've said, it's got potential to be both. And neither is a "wrong" choice... it's just that it's been wavering, and the people who want ARG are growing restless, and the people who want interactive fiction are dwindling. I don't think you can argue that it isn't happening. Sure people are still watching, but this has the potential to nose-dive quickly unless something really new happens. Not saying it will, but that's why I think we need to know right now (or soon) where this is heading. If it's going to be wav files and payphones for the next three or four weeks, then to be honest, I'm not investing as much of my time into this anymore. I'm still respecting it big time and giving the PMs mad props for their efforts, but I'm in the wrong room then and I should be looking for Project Syzygy or Orbital Colony at the very least (cuz while it's not "classic ARG" at least I know the structure of that one...)
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:08 pm
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Sep7imus
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Dorkmaster wrote:
Automated is an apt word, as this is independent of us. Running around town is exciting once, twice, even three times... But when it gets to the point where you're the only one doing it, and we're dependent on mass amounts of people rather than mass amounts of intellect... well, then we're not really gaming are we?We're just gathering... And that's ok, but not what I had hoped.

...

Anyway, that's that... I'm still interested in hearing your take on things though, people... I'm curious how many people think I'm nuts and how many people feel I'm onto their pulse too.... Thanks for listening... Thanks for not hating. Thanks for gaming!


I agree with Dorkmaster on this. On the one hand, the story is great. It's fun to watch it unfold and try to piece together what's going on. But, ont he other hand, basically what we're (well, at least what I am) doing is watching.

I didn't have an Axon near me, so I couldn't answer the phones. I got on #beekeepers when the first Axons went hot and was excited along with everyone else as we figured out what to do with them. But now, I basically just check in occasionally and read the story or listen to the newest .wav files, just to see what's happening.

I do like the idea of having an interactive game-type-thing that doesn't necessarily have obvious "puzzles" in it, per se, making it more like a mystery as someone said, but those elements (decoding the website, analyzing the fairy tales and the PF's language) seem to have given way to waiting for the next injection of story. Where's the fun in that?

-Sep7imus
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:10 pm
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accidentalsuccess
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 		I wouldn't be surprised to see that this stuff is STILL "pre-game". That is, once we figure out how everybody (melissa/SP/PF/etc) got back in time (or whatever) we'll have to deal with whatever problem got them here. Maybe it'll turn out to be more story than not and I'm full of it, but I'm content to enjoy what were're getting so far.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:16 pm
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Prisoner2401
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Zemat wrote:
is this a game, or is it simply interactive fiction?

I'll thank you not to sully the likes of Infocom and rec.arts.int-fiction with your slanderously fuzzy terminology, sirrah. Wink Almost everything that is referred to as "interactive fiction" is also quite correctly called a game, so if you want a term contrasting to "game," "interactive fiction" isn't it.

In fact, the archetypical ARG has almost everything in common with the archetypical work of interactive fiction; in both, one has to do something more mentally engaing than turning a book page in order to arrive at each successive piece of content.

Actually I think that's exactly why we're all a bit frustrated. Figuring out that the "axons" were payphones in the first place was kind of a puzzle, but after that was determined, the "interactivity" of driving to a payphone, staking it out, and answering the Operator's phone call doesn't really go much beyond turning a page in a book.

But there's also more frustration. Only an extremely small number of players are going to have the experience of solving puzzles of the yellowbrickroad or lookingglass variety. Even the links page puzzle (IMHO the coolest and most puzzley puzzle so far) was cracked relatively quickly and by a small number of people.

Arguably, a lone player could experience all the puzzles for themselves by avoiding "spoilers" on this or any other sites. In fact, perhaps that would be the best way to play. But the line between spoilers and simple coordination is incredibly blurry.

I am new to ARGs myself. I know the Beast was insane, but was it really better in terms of progression through puzzle-solving? If there were more puzzles to be solved, would that not actually just increase the frustration of most players, who typically find that the other players have already solved all the known puzzles? I mean, someone's sig even has a quote from the Beast PMs, about how the Cloudmakers solved all the initial puzzles (including ones that the PMs were certain would require additional hints) within the first week!
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:45 pm
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GunsmithCat
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 		I had hoped that after the 24th things would be kicked up another notch, but they rather seem to have lowered instead. I agree with the "ARS" assessment.

Sure, we get some riddles fom Princess. Both of those were solved before I even knew they were out. Heck, I knew about yellowbrickroad.html before I knew the riddle to solve it. The only real puzzle about the axons has turned out to be dealing with their inaccuracy or unreliability. Other than that it's just hoping people have the willpower/ability/time/inclination to show up.

Outside of that we have a lot of surrealistic text and some X-Files style radio shows to go over it seems. I mean the backstory is pretty interesting, the voice acting is great, and just like that show it's fun to try and put details together (though I hope it's more consistent than Carter's work Smile ), but there's a lack of brainteasing to go around.

Now it's wait for Tue update, wait for Fri update. Swap some emails with Princess. Show to payphones. Try to piece together the story (which, while fun - if it continues like this, is kinda futile. We'll know the whole story once it's all delivered...)

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 3:00 pm
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MrDoug
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Zemat wrote:


I am new to ARGs myself. I know the Beast was insane, but was it really better in terms of progression through puzzle-solving? If there were more puzzles to be solved, would that not actually just increase the frustration of most players, who typically find that the other players have already solved all the known puzzles? I mean, someone's sig even has a quote from the Beast PMs, about how the Cloudmakers solved all the initial puzzles (including ones that the PMs were certain would require additional hints) within the first week!


Was the beast better for the puzzles, yes. It helped control the game pace and challenge, it allowed for people with may different backgrounds to contribute what would normally be knowledge that would normally be shared with very few people in a life time to introduce thousands of others to rather obscure topics and specialties. At the same time it brought people together in a way that had not been done before adding the group to the story as well, and making everyone a part of it.

It is not just the lack of puzzles here that is dragging things down rather the lack of additional sites. So far we have love Bees, and a web blog, and that is really about it. Most ARG's incorporate multiple sites, that add to the story that require you to make the connection between the site you visit and the rest of the story.

Would more puzzles mean more frustration? It would depend on the puzzle, (8 pi anyone?) No you are not always going to be first to solve a puzzle, heck you may not be the first to a payphone after driving for two hours, or be at one that will not accept incoming calls after the same drive. How is that any less frustrating? By the same token can you imagine a puzzle in the middle of a Halo game? No you can not proceed unless you can solve it. Uh wait you want us to think? No way man...

Think of the target market for this (insert name here___game) It is clearly not the hard core ARG fan, is the game on target for it's audience? I would argue it is. It can be easily followed, does not require a ton of time to play, can be put down and picked up a few days later with minimal work and has a simple enough plot to keep people interested. That said they are doing a great job.

As far as the all posting Dork Master wanting more, I would say when you log in to UF check out some of the other pending games, I would guess that they will better meet your expectations, as this game(?) may have already reached it's peak.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 3:20 pm
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SecondSundodger
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Pause wrote:

I'm hooked on the storyline and unlocking the audio clips, but I spend the majority of my time browsing the ILB site looking for the new puzzles thinking to myself "we must have missed something ..."


I'm no ARG veteran, to be sure, but have we exhausted all our current puzzles? I really feel like there's more to figure out with the SP's responses and stories, but I just don't know what. I mean, is lookingglass.html all we're suppose to get from the response to Paul P's email? All we've done is speculate about "glass coffins" and computer parts, but is there another riddle/puzzle right there that we just aren't seeing? Maybe I'm underestimating myself, because even though I'm not able to see anything that's yet solvable there, I'm not considering that evidence enough to make it any less likely that there is something.

Maybe it's not that this ARG/ARS/ARwhatever is too easy, too linear or what have you...maybe it's just way too hard and we're suppose to be solving puzzles that any reasonable person can't even find or wouldn't consider "solvable" at this point.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 3:27 pm
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Zemat
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 		I'm curious about "The Beast". How puzzle solving advanced the game in terms of changing the story? I know many of you interacted with the characters in the AI universe and had an effect in the course of the history. But how much that had to do with puzzle solving in that actual game? Because, as I see it, you could still play an ARG, be involved in the story, change it's course and end it, without having to solve brain-breaking puzzles at all. I know solving puzzles is fun, but you don't need them to be involved in the actual procceding of the story.

EDIT: This was answered partially right up there. Sorry.


Think about the first (quite difficult) puzzles that appeared in ILB. How much did they affected the course of events that followed? they just show us a glimpse of what already happened and what was happening. But our initial interaction with the AIs, specially SPs learning to interact with the players, had little to do with puzzle solving. Besides we are still inmersed in the biggest puzzle of all, what's the real purpose of the axons? what are we really supposed to do with them. Dana has been hinting us (aid/confront Mellisa). But we seem to not care, we just listen. Seems we are just waiting for a signal to do something. But the hints are already there (Magic Words, Atempting to influence the source, etc).

I'm not complaining we aren't doing nothing when we should. I'm also at lost to what to do next and waiting for more precise hints. But I believe there is still more to do than just answering payphones. Maybe the puzzles are so hard we don't even know how to start solving them and prefer to believe they don't exist at all.

And sorry for being so rantish about the issue. There are still many questions sorrounding this and I'm scared everything will get dumped before it is really solved. I admire you guys and gals for being so really fast and smart at solving puzzles I wouldn't even notice myself.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 3:36 pm
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Dorkmaster
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 		Eloquently put, Mr. Doug. Eloquently put, indeed. However, I just feel that this is still a little off. If this is intended to be targeted at certain fanboys of a certain game, and for that reason is "slowed down" or less puzzle-intense, that's fine. But then why start the game with words hidden in pictures? Why mail the honeybear to ARGN.com? Why involve the people for whom this was NOT intended? Mind you, it's worked out well, and maybe this path is the path it was intended... but I still think it's a bit of a pump-fake, if you catch my drift... It's just starting out a certain way (lots of puzzle action at the beginning) and then it becomes sit down (drive to Kingman, AZ and pick up a phone) and then listen to a story. Then a little bit of a puzzle for the moving around of wav files... tossing a bone to the ARGers with the yellow brick road type stuff, and then back to driving to Kingman for another Pavlovian moment...

Anyway, I'm not trying to be so cynical... I'm really not. I just think that this is an honest flaw to this structure of game. It's not a bad game. Just that it was presented in a way that built it to be more than it was. (And this happens throughout the entertainment industry, and especially in the entertainment advertising industry!)

So to the PMs I say: Thank you SO much for the game so far. It has been awesome! It really has! But it's now time to move it up a notch or take another direction. You can either engender new fans (ARG enthusiasts, those new to ARGs, and those new to ARGs AND the Haloverse) or you can stagnate. It's a call to arms of the troops making the game. You can go with what you've got. And that's totally cool. But it's not what I want. (and believe me, I'm target demographic all the way) Or, you can change it, make people like me happy (20-something gamers old enough and independent enough to go buy and play and talk about Halo 2, and still appreciate the advertising side of this as well as the entertainment side) and take it at least one step up...

There's no rule saying you can't help with a puzzle, in-character. If the game stagnates because of a difficult puzzle for a threatening period of time, that's why we have Dana! "OMG, people! I've got the answer transmitting all the way from the Red Planet, China!" or something... the possibilities are endless. Step it up every week or two. Let's see what works and what doesn't. If it gets too hard and people start leaving, you can always throttle it down again... I'm not saying let's go to "Founder" status... just let's get to some puzzles that take some time, or at least numerous puzzles that don't take some time...

I just think it's workable. And it may still be their plan all along anyway, and I'm just ranting prematurely! I fully admit that. But I just don't get that feeling, and I'm becoming more and more cynical every update.

If you are cynical too, don't hate the PMs either, cuz it's their game and they have the right to make it their way! And if you don't like it, feel free to collect your refunds at the door for the price of the game! But don't hate me, because I'm cynical. I still like whatever this is... I'm just getting philisophical about it, is all...
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 3:45 pm
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Zemat
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MrDoug wrote:

It is not just the lack of puzzles here that is dragging things down rather the lack of additional sites. So far we have love Bees, and a web blog, and that is really about it. Most ARG's incorporate multiple sites, that add to the story that require you to make the connection between the site you visit and the rest of the story.


I don't agree with this. Why an ARG needs more sites? The PMs already have experience with ARGs, they are trying to bring freshness and originality to this. There are no D&D or D20 rules for ARGs. ARGs are more like happenings or performances. Maybe not as artistic but equally creative and out-of-the-box. Are you gonna complain about the lack of sites when we have millions of payphones ringing telling us stories that seem and do not seem to be related at all with was happening on ILB? Maybe payphones aren't as flashy as websites. But at least they are trying to be innovative. give them a break. The PM's are reading the forums at least, it seems.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 3:48 pm
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CoffeeJedi
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 		while i'd like another puzzle, yes... the idea of payphones ringing off the hook around the country and some hapless non-player picks it up and get confused or scared by the female voice on the other end really makes me happy

maybe you're right about Dana's suggestion, maybe there's this huge deep nearly impossible puzzle staring us right in the face screaming SOLVE ME, and we don't even see it...

so far telnet, ssh and ftp are all coming up with nothing for ilovebees.com... we've tried to send mail there and it bounced.... are we missing some other way of interacting with Melissa?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 3:53 pm
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farva
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MrDoug wrote:


Think of the target market for this (insert name here___game) It is clearly not the hard core ARG fan, is the game on target for it's audience? I would argue it is. It can be easily followed, does not require a ton of time to play, can be put down and picked up a few days later with minimal work and has a simple enough plot to keep people interested. That said they are doing a great job.


And I would argue the game is not on target for its audience, assuming you mean HALO fans. I came into the game because of the HALO 2 connotation, as did a lot of people I know. Now we're all at our wits end with the game. How is repeatedly chasing down payphones fun? Where are the puzzles and other fun interactive toys we've heard ARGs are famous for?

I don't want to generalize but I will. Console gamers are used to being able to solve a puzzle or achieve a goal and immediately move onto the next thing. We aren't doing that here. "Puzzles" get solved before a lot of people even know they exist, these stupid axons get unlocked within a day or two, and then we're left holding the bag for two or three more days while we wait for the PMs to throw up a new page that will be figured out within five minutes of being posted.

Obviously I'm new to this ARG thing but does every game have such a choppy and disjointed flow? It's very off-putting.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 3:59 pm
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Dorkmaster
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 		Again, I'm sorry to be jumping on top of the dead horse I just beat the crap out of, but I have to say it one more time, just cuz I know the PMs are listening...


I am seriously enjoying this game. I am waxing philisophical about where this fits in this emerging genre. I'm debating the validity of the marketing ability especially with a gaming demographic. I'm considering all of those aspects of the game that are meta to the game... that's all. I think this has been a bit of: "this is an apple" but it looks and tastes a lot more like an orange. So again, I really have no problems with the game, but I also think it's not what I expected and frankly what I would desire if I was running it. But I realize I'm not running it, too.

So I'm so sorry for writing a virtual novel here... I'm not trying to dominate here... But I've got a lot of thoughts in this area... (MAN, I would love to PM something sometime!....) And I just wanted to bounce those thoughts off of the amazing, cool, intelligent community that is you guys, cuz in general and for 9 outta ten times, I really respect your thoughts and know you care about keeping this type of game good and cool too. (not just for ILB but for future games too...)

So yeah. I'm done soapboxing. Really. I've said what I mean like 50 times and I'm done. Sorry for the hot air. I'll just listen and ride the wave now...

-DM
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 3:59 pm
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Zemat
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 		One more detail. About the slowness of the game (this is what I think is the most off-puting aspect of it).

Consider the amout of effort put on the wavs and payphone locations. The PMs probably are just 4 or 5 dudes (plus all the voice-talents) doing all this. While a thousand individuals, probably better coordinated, are finding out the payphone locations and answering them. The most probable reason they decided that we need 3 axons instead of 2 to active the axons is because they need to buy time for them to make additional material. And as I said earlier. Is quite probable the voice-actor recordings are made between transmisions to take into account our input (if they are taking into account us, which I hope is or will be the case).
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 4:00 pm
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