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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[QUESTION][SPEC] Cole Protocol, the Apocolypso, and You
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MNPundit
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Joined: 17 Aug 2004
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Location: Iowa

 		Good morning all!

Voyager 1 is currently slightly less than 9 billion miles from the Earth for a speed of roughly 334,000,000 miles a year! For a rounded off total of 167,000,000,000 miles from Earth by 2478 AD! However don't get your hopes up as that is about 1/20 the distance to Proxima Centauri, our nearest star. In other words, the people in the Haloverse probably passed it long before the Covenant got to it.

PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:20 am
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SuperJerms
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Joined: 21 Aug 2004
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Location: indiana
sam wrote:
if so, should we be blindly following the requests of a malfunctioning, slightly demented AI... eg: we could end up being the ones that reveal the location of Earth to the Covies


Therein lies the magic...a flawed narrator is a classic storytelling convention. Our notions of who is good or evil, malicious or helpful here is all spec based on limited knowledge. Nope, we really can't trust anyone.

[META] This train is coming into the station one way or another. It's already a forgone conclusion that the'll find Earth. This game is probably here just to answer the question of how.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:25 am
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GunsmithCat
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sam wrote:


My point waay back at the beginning of the thread (no I didn't start the thread, and if you want to look on this as a hyjacking so be it) was that from what we can ascertain from the dialogue in the Halo game, Cortana says it was a blind jump... which I assume to mean random jump, and out of all the locations in all the galaxy, the POA just happened to end up next to the the Ring (lucky eh).

when in fact... Cortana had previous info about the location and wanted to check it out

this says to me that Cortana lied to Keyes.

this worries me - should an AI be able to do that? If so, do we assume that the AI's in ILB can also lie?



Well #1, the fact that Cortana knew the location of Halo comes from the books right? Some of the dialogue might not match up.

But in any case, Cortana isn't a program in the normal sense. She's a personality and an insanely intelligent one. To her, this might be a bit of a white lie - "blind" and "I'll go to this utterly illogical point" might not be much of a difference. She didn't really know what was there, so it was, in a sense, blind.

Point being, AIs like Cortana probably can lie, swindle, cheat and steal. We should treat them like normal ONI officers, and trust them based on their personas.

PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 8:49 am
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CoffeeJedi
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
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Location: Charlotte NC, USA
MNPundit wrote:
Good morning all!

Voyager 1 is currently slightly less than 9 billion miles from the Earth for a speed of roughly 334,000,000 miles a year! For a rounded off total of 167,000,000,000 miles from Earth by 2478 AD! However don't get your hopes up as that is about 1/20 the distance to Proxima Centauri, our nearest star. In other words, the people in the Haloverse probably passed it long before the Covenant got to it.


provided of course that it didn't crash into the Borg and become V'ger Twisted Evil
but you're right, people often fail to realize how HUGE space is, to quote the late, great, Douglas Adams:
Douglas Adams wrote:

Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the drug store, but that's just peanuts to space.


without FTL engines, it takes THOUSANDS of years to travel interplanetary distances
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:03 am
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sam
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Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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Location: UK (but soon to be in NZ!)

 		[quote="GunsmithCat"]
sam wrote:


Point being, AIs like Cortana probably can lie, swindle, cheat and steal. We should treat them like normal ONI officers, and trust them based on their personas.


Ignoring the recent I,Robot of Bel Air farce...

You'd think that Bungie would at least pay lip service to the 3 rules of Azimov, but like you say - Cortana and the ILB AI's seem to be for all intents and purposes 'just another character'.

Sam

PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:13 am
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CoffeeJedi
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
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sam wrote:
GunsmithCat wrote:

Point being, AIs like Cortana probably can lie, swindle, cheat and steal. We should treat them like normal ONI officers, and trust them based on their personas.


Ignoring the recent I,Robot of Bel Air farce...

You'd think that Bungie would at least pay lip service to the 3 rules of Azimov, but like you say - Cortana and the ILB AI's seem to be for all intents and purposes 'just another character'.

Sam


wow Sam, its like you READ MY MIND!!! [twiddles fingers] creeeeeepy [/twiddle]
if a 'smart' AI is copied from a Human mind, it stands to reason that they'd get ALL the 'bad' parts of humanity as well
plus, remember the era Asimov wrote in, there was no "software" running on computers, it was all tubes and switches. Some of his stories about the "future" of robots are laughable, in the story "Galley Slave", its said that for a computer to proofread a book, they would have to translate the text into special code, then feed it into the machine on paper tape! (which is why a robot was chosen as the proofreader instead) His robots weren't digital computers running software, they had hard-wired positronic brains that had a physical "3-laws" 'switch' in them that would actually prevent the connection of neural pathways that would lead to a law violation. Halo AI's are essentially just software, they can run on any physical device (like the ILB webserver)

whew........ food for thought, chew on that for a while
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:37 am
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thebruce
Dances With Wikis


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
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Location: Kitchener, Ontario
GunsmithCat wrote:
"Maximum Effective Radius" could easily mean that it reaches well outside the 25,000 mark 343 mentions, it just might not be 100%. With multiple installations, the Forerunner could make sure they cover any weak spots.

I'd hate to imagine the effects of life at an effect of under 100%... non-death? pain? torture? Think of lives after the effect of Hiroshima and fallout and such... if beyond 25,000 LY (ground zero), life isn't completely obliterated, what kind of life would life have? ugh...

MNPundit wrote:
Extremely unlikely that anything could do that, as the center of our Galaxy is almost certainly a supermassive blackhole. http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast05sep_1.htm

*sigh* "for argument's sake"... Razz IF something managed to destroy just the center of our galaxy (black hole or not), the galaxy would be thrown out of whack, orbits would destabilize; life, indirectly, may come to end... who knows... it's the beauty of sci-fi Smile If we had no supermassive black hole, effectively nothing would hold our galaxy together, and the centrifugal force of the stars' rotation around the center would throw them away from the galaxy... and considering all the forces we're discovering outside our solar system (atomic particles, energy waves and such - our entire solar system is EXTREMELY protected by the properties - gravitational, magnetic, etc - of our sun) a solar system would most likely not survive if the conditions that make any possible current existing life survive changed. Heck, just by watching a supernova through a telescope we're being bombarded by light energy, in the least. People theorize that a supernova would have major effects on the earth's weather if any were near our galactic vicinity...

space is one major crazy place! One 'Halo' (back to the perspective of 'destruction' vs 'wiping out life') placed in the right place in a galaxy, could effectively have the potential to end all life in the galaxy...

ah... sci-fi Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 10:04 am
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GunsmithCat
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thebruce wrote:
GunsmithCat wrote:
"Maximum Effective Radius" could easily mean that it reaches well outside the 25,000 mark 343 mentions, it just might not be 100%. With multiple installations, the Forerunner could make sure they cover any weak spots.

I'd hate to imagine the effects of life at an effect of under 100%... non-death? pain? torture? Think of lives after the effect of Hiroshima and fallout and such... if beyond 25,000 LY (ground zero), life isn't completely obliterated, what kind of life would life have? ugh...


Worse is that it's hard to imagine just what the Halo's were going to do. I mean, we're talking about a weapon that only destroys life that the Flood considers food. 343's quote here mentions biomass and an earlier quote:

Quote:

Which means that any organism of sufficient mass and cognitive ability is a potential vector.


So maybe it even takes cognitive abilities into a factor? It's like this weird smart neutron bomb that can discern between a field rat and a human. Tre bizarre.

PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 10:19 am
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SuperJerms
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Joined: 21 Aug 2004
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GunsmithCat wrote:
Worse is that it's hard to imagine just what the Halo's were going to do.


I know! It puts bubblegum in everyone's hair while they're sleeping! Very Happy


GunsmithCat wrote:
So maybe it even takes cognitive abilities into a factor? It's like this weird smart neutron bomb that can discern between a field rat and a human. Tre bizarre.


I figgered that he was just saying, "Only the cockroaches will survive."
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 10:30 am
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Mazian
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Joined: 31 Aug 2004
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SuperJerms wrote:
Mazian wrote:
Either you didn't read what I cited, or you disagree with the veracity of the information contained within the cited sources.

.
.
.
In other words, I choose option B. I don't think you can put too much stock into things said before the game was released. For example, in the first excerpt you quoted in your response, Joseph Staten also said that the commander of the PoA was a she. Either Keyes is secretly a woman, or Staten was just wrong. I would be willing to guess that the Halo Bible was still being written when he said that, anyway.
.
.
.


that was my point exactly. When many things were said, and archived on the internet, the bible was not finished (or some facts were remembered wrong along the way. -- it was actually not my original supposition that the bible was unfinished, but it works within the framework of my SPEC.)

Therefore, the information available to the public is somewhat contradictory.

Unless you have a copy of the H-Bible in your back pocket?

Another possible hypothesis: Whoever transcribed Staten's speach made a typo and put "she" instead of "he." It is only one letter off.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 10:43 am
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GunsmithCat
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SuperJerms wrote:


GunsmithCat wrote:
So maybe it even takes cognitive abilities into a factor? It's like this weird smart neutron bomb that can discern between a field rat and a human. Tre bizarre.


I figgered that he was just saying, "Only the cockroaches will survive."


But if a 25,000 LY Bomb went off in our neighborhood, the cockroaches probably wouldn't survive. Anything powerful enough to wipe out all the humans in a galaxy with one blast would probably take out the birds and bees too ... unless specifically designed not too.

This is an important distinction for the Haloverse history I think. Or prehistory. 343 more or less admits that they fired the Halo in the past, and that's probably what wiped out the Forerunners. But life still persisted, it just had to evolve to point where it could come back and reclaim their past...

PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:21 am
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sam
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Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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Location: UK (but soon to be in NZ!)

 		The idea is that whatever a Halo "explosion" is, it wipes out the Floods FOOD. ..any biomass sufficiently large enough to sustain the Flood gets wiped out. Now define "sufficiently large"...

If you ask me the Halo Bible is about as non-self contradictory as the Christian Bible.

*ducks for cover*

Trying to validate every point is a waste of time. Halo is a game, with many gaping plot holes. It's a VERY good game, but it's still a game.


PS: Absolutly no offense intended for any of our religious brothers and sisters.

Sam

PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:25 am
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jellyfish_green
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Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Inner Colony of Eire
SuperJerms wrote:
Interesting, but is the Apoc really an ONI ship? Oni may be all about the spying stuff, but that doesn't seem to fit with SP's stolen page from Melissa's diary...there, Melissa is talking to Weedy/McKaskill, and she seemed to imply that ONI="the bad people," and that Weedy was collaborating with a ONI spy...an act of treason. Why would working alongside ONI be treason if it's an ONI vessel?


- we know ONI is inter-departmental competitive & paranoid, from the books (Kelsey vs Ackerton)
- we have ONI Tech Kowalski on board. (spin the bottle)
- we're not a warship, just disguised as a pleasure yacht (brown hair)

PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:53 am
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thebruce
Dances With Wikis


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
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sam wrote:
If you ask me the Halo Bible is about as non-self contradictory as the Christian Bible.

*ducks for cover*

PS: Absolutly no offense intended for any of our religious brothers and sisters.

Well then, I guess I'll have to make sure that everything in-game fits with the Bungie bible if it really is that non-self-contradictory! Must have taken Bungie a lot of work to make it perfect... cool

Razz
(sweet revenge)
continuing on.... Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:29 pm
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Platonix
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Joined: 28 Aug 2004
Posts: 174
Location: Keene, New Hampshire
CoffeeJedi wrote:
sam wrote:
You'd think that Bungie would at least pay lip service to the 3 rules of Azimov, but like you say - Cortana and the ILB AI's seem to be for all intents and purposes 'just another character'.

Sam


wow Sam, its like you READ MY MIND!!! [twiddles fingers] creeeeeepy [/twiddle]
if a 'smart' AI is copied from a Human mind, it stands to reason that they'd get ALL the 'bad' parts of humanity as well
plus, remember the era Asimov wrote in, there was no "software" running on computers, it was all tubes and switches. Some of his stories about the "future" of robots are laughable, in the story "Galley Slave", its said that for a computer to proofread a book, they would have to translate the text into special code, then feed it into the machine on paper tape! (which is why a robot was chosen as the proofreader instead) His robots weren't digital computers running software, they had hard-wired positronic brains that had a physical "3-laws" 'switch' in them that would actually prevent the connection of neural pathways that would lead to a law violation. Halo AI's are essentially just software, they can run on any physical device (like the ILB webserver)

whew........ food for thought, chew on that for a while

Besides...none of Asimov's three rules prohibit lying.
The three rules, ordered by importance (in case of conflict, prefer the earlier law) are, paraphrased:
  • Do not kill humans.
  • Don't commit suicide.
  • Obey humans.
It was noted in the movie "Bicentennial Man" that a robot adhering to these three laws can still lie if it judges that the human master will be better off that way.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:41 am
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