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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[META] Sides? WHo should we trust?
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thebruce
Dances With Wikis


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 6899
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Necroscope wrote:
It is bad form for a player in an ARG to hide facts from the rest of the community.

and, who says it's bad form? Urban Hunt is based on teams... I haven't studied it, but the only ARG rules are those set by the PMs... so, if they intend to have the option for players to form 'teams' per se, then it's a perfectly legitimate thing... I don't think that's what the PMs here are trying to do, but I don't think it's 'bad form for a player in an ARG', or a rule in general... it's called roleplaying...
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 11:01 pm
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SuperJerms
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Joined: 21 Aug 2004
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thebruce wrote:
Necroscope wrote:
It is bad form for a player in an ARG to hide facts from the rest of the community.

and, who says it's bad form? Urban Hunt is based on teams... I haven't studied it, but the only ARG rules are those set by the PMs... so, if they intend to have the option for players to form 'teams' per se, then it's a perfectly legitimate thing... I don't think that's what the PMs here are trying to do, but I don't think it's 'bad form for a player in an ARG', or a rule in general... it's called roleplaying...


It is bad form. Just like brute-forcing and looking behind the curtan, it breaks one of the Ten Commandments of ARGing. You can find those here: http://www.unfiction.com/dev/tutorial/

[img]http://www.unfiction.com/dev/tutorial/10com.jpe[/img]
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 11:21 pm
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thebruce
Dances With Wikis


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
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SuperJerms wrote:
It is bad form. Just like brute-forcing and looking behind the curtan, it breaks one of the Ten Commandments of ARGing. You can find those here: http://www.unfiction.com/dev/tutorial/

hhe I'm really not trying to get on your back, jerms, but I consider it more fun for an ARG not to have rules... you basically put the PMs in a box... at least in this case. Because now the PMs, no matter how much it's required by storyline, can never release information to whomever they choose. Now they have to make sure everyone sees everything. I don't think that's the intent of the 'share all information' etiquette. I feel that refers to people hogging information that's specifically intended to be public information for themselves. Like I said, if an in-game character asks you, or tells you, to keep something secret, you then have to play an in-game role. Betray the character, or betray your friends? You can't blame the PMs for making you make that choice... it's a part of their game.

I know in the future, that if I decide to start up an ARG, I'll be very dissuaded to create something unique and original if I've got a set of rules to create by... suddenly it cuts down plot possibilities by a factor. Just like I said, in Urban Hunt, part of the game is making teams and separating players. That goes against the 'share info' rule right off the bat...

So, I'll concede that rule if you'll agree that it applies to OOG choices by player to hide intended public information. Not information that's intended to be private to a player or set of players.

Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 11:43 pm
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vortech
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 		Not to mention #7 on that list. . .
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:07 am
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Mike_Was
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SuperJerms wrote:
It is bad form. Just like brute-forcing and looking behind the curtan, it breaks one of the Ten Commandments of ARGing. You can find those here: http://www.unfiction.com/dev/tutorial/

[img]http://www.unfiction.com/dev/tutorial/10com.jpe[/img]


Jerms, didja read No. 7? Let me quote it for you:

Quote:
Thou shalt assist In-Game characters when required.


Now, ASSUMING - which you must, since you don't know - that anyone is hiding anything from anybody, if they were doing it at Melissa's request then it's much more clear that the Commandments which you value so highly, REQUIRE that course of action, rather than prohibit it.

If the PM's want you to know something, they'll provide a way for you to figure it out. If you don't like the way this game is going, no one's forcing you at gunpoint to spend another minute playing. Either play it or don't, but don't sit here and poison it for everyone else.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:07 am
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SuperJerms
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 		Curses! Foiled again! Very Happy

Well, as usual, I don't totally disagree with you. Like I said in the other thread, there is an intellectual part of me that finds this all fascinating. The breaking of this norm leads to a very colorful change in the future of ARG, just like how the Beast had a groundbreaking part where the players forced the PM's to change their plan. Now, we won't know whether the PM's anticipated this chaos until after the game is ended...but it is still chaos. Those etiquette rules exist for a reason, and people taking it personally is probably the exact reason this is so newsworthy.

Yeah, PM's have a right to make a decision that will force us to do something provocative, but I think the reactions here are justified. As I have said before, I don't think its right to hold anyone guilty of wrongdoing here, including PM's or individuals. I do think it's different than noticing poor decisions have been made, though. That's life...you act, you learn, you adapt.

Do I think PM's have made a poor choice by forcing the Crew to either betray us or Melissa? [Thinking...] No, I don't. I think it is a stroke of genius.

Of course, that makes my position a bit paradoxical, but I think it fits the paradoxical situation. Remember, it's normal for a person to watch a sad movie and cry, or a dramatic movie and get angry. This game just took a dramatic move and ruffled some feathers...that's a mark of greatness. The feathers are still ruffled, though. And in that respect, I think it's appropriate for folks to be bothered by the events. No matter what the outcome, the PM's should (and I suspect are) reading all varieties of reactions and absolutely loving it. I know I would be.

thebruce wrote:
So, I'll concede that rule if you'll agree that it applies to OOG choices by player to hide intended public information. Not information that's intended to be private to a player or set of players.


I dunno...like you, I am new to the ARG thing. I think I'll still say it applies here. We as players are involved. www.thebruce.ca isn't on the ILB server, but players depend on it every week for info. I have to say that makes it IG. People interact with the AI's, eachother, and ILB.com in ways that affect themselves, the unforums, and eachother...in ways, I think it even effects the PM's...kinda like a food chain thingy. So I think that everyone of us, crew or not, registered or lurker, enhottenator, puzzle solver, decoder ring specialists, or SPECtitions are IG characters. but that's just me Cool

[Dr. Claw Voice]I'll get you next time, thebruce! Next tiiiime!!![/Dr. Claw Voice]
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:09 am
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SuperJerms
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Mike_Was wrote:
Now, ASSUMING - which you must, since you don't know - that anyone is hiding anything from anybody, if they were doing it at Melissa's request then it's much more clear that the Commandments which you value so highly, REQUIRE that course of action, rather than prohibit it.


Fact: there are lengthy posts in other threads about crewmembers hiding information from the rest of us, with the intent to help M capture SP. Said info wasn't shared with the rest of us for fear that SP would catch wind of the plot. The same posts explain how crewmembers have done some networking amongst eachother to accomplish the goal.

Perhaps you should refine your understanding of the word assumption.

Melissa is pitting some of us against others of us. That's Exactly my point about how interesting and paradoxical the whole thing is. Read above and in other posts...I've said it many times.

Mike_Was wrote:
If you don't like the way this game is going, no one's forcing you at gunpoint to spend another minute playing. Either play it or don't, but don't sit here and poison it for everyone else.


Oh the DRAAAMAAAH!

Look, I can't control how you feel about other people such as myself, but if you go back and re-read my other posts, you will see that I don't dislike where the game is going. This topic focuses on how some people are being forced into sides against others, and how that affects the game, how we play, and the whole notion of ARGing. It is not dissimiar to the kinds of conversations that happen around theoretical breakthroughs in scientific fields (I at least know this to be true of paradigm shifts in communication studies). If this sort of conversaion poisons the game for you, then don't read META topics. In the meantime, do attempt to be civil Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:22 am
Last edited by SuperJerms on Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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thebruce
Dances With Wikis


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
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 		hehe well I have this habit of going on about a topic over and over again, just wording it slightly different each time Razz
and personally, I would've liked "I'll get you Eh Steve if it's the last thing I dooooooo!" better Wink hehe
but yeah, I didn't even read #7 on that commandments list... so props to vortech and mike_was... that would have saved me a whole lotta typing if I'd have known Smile at least in that other thread... I must have taken up an average thread page length with that one post Surprised

anyway... on to the game Smile

(singing du-du-du-du-du-inspector-gadget, du-du-du-du-dun-dun-duuuuuh!)
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:24 am
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Stratus
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Joined: 23 Aug 2004
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 		I was always under the impression that things that go on in ARG fourms, such as this one, are out of game and have no(real) affect on the game itself. The PMs have a curtian which we are unable to see through. The players have a wall with a peephole so the PMs know what we know. So putting info wouldn't be a big problem.

BUT,

This isn't a demand to have the "crew" post info they recieve. You have all been doing this longer than me(and most of us), you know what you are doing better than I ever will. I trust ya with my life(ingame).

edit

inspecter gadget rules

PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:36 am
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archon
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Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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 		Can I be trusted...

PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:53 am
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Nightmare Tony
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Joined: 07 Jun 2004
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 		But how can you rewrite the rules when they are made fresh every single second?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:01 am
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BenSerwa
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 		The only person I know I can't trust is myself.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:27 am
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HitsHerMark
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Joined: 22 Aug 2004
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 		They're really more like guidelines ...


Quote:

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with shockingly excessive force is the best deterrent.
I am relentless, and I have absolutely no conscience
when it comes to executing my mission.

Beekeeper: Parley?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 4:40 am
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Shad0
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Joined: 20 Jun 2004
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asute_falcon wrote:
But, on topic, this could be seen either way. If they ARE trying to divide the community... Here's a quick question I should look into, or two of them: A) Did the people who were 'spiked' post where and when they would be going? and B) Are most of the people major people in the community, IE - got us alot of our info first, and quickest? If so, I have a slight bit of spec about that... But I'll have to answer those two first, to get the spec to have some proof to back it up.

Oh, and apologies to the spiked people, due to the fact that I don't really know exactly who was spiked, excepts for xnbomb, krysten, and weephun. I should also look into that. Rambling now. Gotta learn to shut up.

I believe the answer to both of your questions is "No," because mann alive indicated here that he had never posted here at all until after he spiked an axon.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 6:07 am
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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 		a statement and three points
Atrophied wrote:

Quote:
1) You seem to be forgetting that we're all in on this game together.


I agree. We are playing this game together in a community of sorts. That means we need to accept that players have diverse opinions and viewpoints and to have conflicting ideas without turning against each other or dividing into groups of players sniping at the other groups.
---
A. That being said, as for the META conversation occuring here:

If there is division between the players it is because WE, the players, create it.

Nothing we have seen or heard in the game suggests that the PMs are dividing us. Thus, I see this as the wrong path for the players.

If any player wants to choose an ai to side with

(which I find curious as (1) we don't know anything much about the intentions of any of them--other than Melissa's warnings and threats from the ilovebees main page and the Flea's persistent attempts to control the SP and (2) even smart ai's are still programs that can't override their inherent "nature" -- such as Durga refusing to transfer Jersey's father -- so trying to describe them as "good" or "bad" doesn't follow)

then, great, fine, do so - but don't try to turn it into a division that you expect other players to follow. And don't try to cover your divisive impulses with some META guess at what the PMs are doing.

Frankly, some of the posts about the players who were chosen to be crew -- and she will be adding more-- sound like ill-concealed jealousy.

B. As for the manner of picking the crew and the question of certain "favored" players were favored, let's review:

1. Melissa started making live calls only after the 777 was reached, who could predict exactly when that would happen?

2. Several people answered live calls and answered incorrectly so were "weeded out" of the process.

3. The PMs could only know which phone would ring, not who would answer it. There were several reports of people getting live calls simply because other people directed them there

4. As much as we would like to believe otherwise, lots of people playing this game will have never heard of us or will choose not to play here.


C. As for the missing SP:

I was surprised at the latest plot twist, as I expected the SP to continue to get stronger and bolder. Her continual mention of trying to evade the Queen and needing us to distract the Queen were evidently "factual" statements that I didn't take seriously. I thought she was just being cute when, in fact, she was in jeopardy.

I am looking forward to seeing what happens when people call the Princess' name.

One last thing, any good spec on why the Flea didn't turn Melissa's attention from the Sleeping Princess? Was it because it couldn't ? How much power over Melissa does it actually have?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 9:46 am
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