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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): Interaction
[SPEC] SP references, AI personalities, etc.
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daboking
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Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 486
Location: 2nd star to the right

 		I want to compliment all of you for taking such a delicate subject with its plethora of opinions floating out there and then treating each other respectfully. I wish I had the time to dive more into this thread as it is something very dear to my heart (like SuperJerms so eloquently stated-and I really appreciate your vulnerableness in laying yourself out there... you seem to be a true example of what it means to be a disciple). Everyone has been tolerant, polite, and respectful of others, and I hope I can find the time to join in with you all and intelligently discuss. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:17 pm
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Phaedra
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Joined: 21 Sep 2004
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 		Re: [SPEC] This one isn't theology, I promise!
GabrielBlade wrote:
As far as your Spec goes - I never knew there was so much mythology behind - like Melissa nurturing Zeus and then being turned into a bee (bloody hell, is that symbolic, or what?)


Yes, and I was focusing so much on the mythology behind the names that I never noticed that "Durga" is an acronym for "guard."

<forehead smack>

Thank goodness there are so many observant people around here.

Quote:
Things are starting to slowly fit together... but my only problem is that sometimes they seem to fit together too neatly - and if the PMs have already seen that, then it could be just a false trail and have nothing to do with our friends whatsoever.


Do you think they're really that twisted?

Wait a minute.

Never mind. Stupid question.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 4:08 pm
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Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
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Trynian wrote:
*boggles*

*boggles some more*

Dana was right:

Quote:

<snip stuff>

You are my extraordinary. Near strangers — brilliant, kind, loud, mean, methodical, wildly creative, above all passionate. I don't agree with all of you… no surprise, you hardly agree with one another. But your energy. This community.

By sheer fluke luck, this blog has become a way station for amazing, brilliant, compassionate, crazy people. A clearinghouse for an extraordinary phenomenon. And I don't mean the AI.


Jerms, Phaedra, Bruce, the rest of you...I consider myself very fortunate to have discovered this community. May we some day be able to meet face-to-face.


I was going to say the same thing about the rest of you -- there are so many brilliant, kind, passionate people here that it blows my mind. Normally, I wouldn't discuss theology or any other touchy subject to this extent in a public forum, but the people here are so respectful of others, so open and trusting with their own beliefs, and so willing both to learn and to teach, that I'm totally comfortable. I'm going to be heartbroken when the ARG ends.

Trynian's post reminded me that I haven't even checked out the blog. That's probably something I should do <rueful smile>. Are they mostly the same people that are here?

daboking wrote:
I hope I can find the time to join in with you all and intelligently discuss. Very Happy


I hope you do, too.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 4:17 pm
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weephun
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Joined: 25 Aug 2004
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Phaedra wrote:
... but the people here are so respectful of others...

Yah, for the most part. Though the difference between the way that I was treated and the way that Lt. Adam has been treated gives me hope that the general mentality on the board has grown up some in the last few weeks.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:23 am
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


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 		But we shall never forget, since it has been burned indelibly into our brains ...

PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:58 am
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Son of a Beep
Boot

Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 23
Location: WI

 		Re: Attempting to remain humble...
Phaedra wrote:

In truth, Beep (or would you prefer Son? or BeepMan? or -- never mind, I'll stop Razz ), you would be much less impressed with me if you'd been at the axon. I spent most of the time staring dumbly at the phone with my mouth hanging open.


Just call me Jer, thats what all my friends do.. just decided to keep my forum and XBL name the same..

When I was younger my mom always said if i wanted to say bitch or damn or fuck or something I should just say Beep.. thus the name. (And no, I don't hate my mom, we get along great, I just thought it was a unique gamertag)

PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 2:52 pm
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Phaedra
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 		More thoughts
Generally off-topic. Theology warning.

But first:

Quote:
Yah, for the most part. Though the difference between the way that I was treated and the way that Lt. Adam has been treated gives me hope that the general mentality on the board has grown up some in the last few weeks.


Ah, poor weephun. <hug> They'll get over it.

Now, in increasing level of importance.

Quote:
Heh, as you can tell, I do not speak Hebrew.


Well, todah rabah (thank you very much) for being man enough to admit it. You would not believe how many times I've had arguments with door-to-door proselytizers where I'm firing basic Hebrew questions at them that they obviously don't understand and yet they still refuse to admit that they don't speak the language.

It blows my mind.

But that's fine. Hebrew is not generally an easy language for those who are used to Germanic or Romance languages. It's very ambiguous and structured very differently from most of the languages of the Western world. Frankly, for Christianity as most of the Christians I've known practice it, knowing Hebrew is completely unnecessary. If you want to have enough understanding to make it worthwhile, it's a major time commitment, and you could learn Greek in far less time, which I think would make a more meaningful contribution to your beliefs.

Quote:
after all, I struggle enough with Engilsh as things stand currently!


Really? I couldn't tell. Is it not your first language? If not, you're doing an excellent job.

Quote:
What I was trying to convey here is the distinction in the Torah between the Angel of the Lord and God himself. It is not too uncommon for Christians to read instances of "Angel of the Lord," (Genesis 22:11) "Angel of God," (Exodus 14:9) "Man of God," (Judges 13:6) and "Angel of His Prescence" (Isaiah 63:9) as with, but seperate from God. My intent is not to focus on those specific verses, but there are a host of situations where a distinction is made between an angel from God and an Angel of God. It is my belief that this is a theophanic occurance, not just an encounter with angelic beings.


Bear in mind that the Torah is almost as reticent as to the nature of its angels as it is regarding what happens after death. (The afterlife isn't discussed until later in the Bible.) The word used is malakh which just means "messenger." G-d sends out malakhim. So do David and Saul. It's not until later in the Bible that we get winged (Persian-style) angels. So one can't rule out the possibility that G-d sent men with messages.

Quote:
Also, the Elohiym is a plural intensive, one of a bunch of other plural referents to God.


Hmm. Hebrew does lots of acrobatics with endings. Plural endings don't necessarily mean that the word is plural. Rachamim means "compassion," which isn't exactly plural. It's an intensifier, and one of the (many) mysterious aspects about how the Torah talks about G-d.

Quote:
Psalm 2's son to refers not to an Earthly king but to Jesus.


I've never completely understood why Christian translators insist on translating nashqu var, which means approximately "worship in (or possibly "arm yourself with") purity" as "Kiss the Son." And why, when most similar Psalms are referring to David when they talk about an "anointed," this one supposedly refers to Jesus.

But it's probably not important.

Quote:
Yes, I would say that the Tetragrammaton refers to Jesus because of several things that he has said.


If you're okay with the actions that such an association attributes to Jesus, then I guess I'm okay with your being okay with it.

Quote:
As you have said that you have studied these things, I am sure I would not be contributing anything you have yet to hear already.


Possibly, although I'm always interested even if I disagree.

Quote:
At any rate, I want to stress that I am attempting to tread lightly here in deference to your beliefs. For this reason, I have not used the word YHWH until this point, and probably won't in the future.


And let me take this moment to thank you sincerely for your care and consideration. It is refreshing and heartening to talk to someone who's able to disagree with respect rather than recrimination.

Quote:
I suppose this is the crux of the disagreement. While I can agree that most Jews see the divinity of Jesus as irreconcilable to their faith, I disagree that it actually is irreconcilable.


Probably this doesn't matter, as I very much doubt that you are one of those individuals that comes knocking on our doors during the High Holy Days or interrupting our Sabbaths to tell us the "good news" about "Yeshua haMashiach." Or one of those well-meaning teachers, daycare givers, etc. who takes our children aside and explains to them that they're going to Hell.

So, I can live with your believing that.

On the other hand, in case you are ever considering becoming one of the aforementioned individuals, let me say this:

Generally, the more a Christian knows of both their own theology and our beliefs, the less likely they are to try and convince us that belief in the divinity of Jesus fits in with our beliefs. And this isn't something that can be put down to the not-quite-accurate-assumption that people of greater education are likely to be people of lesser faith. I know a lot of people who are highly educated (doctors, lawyers, professors, scientists) who are nonetheless people of deep and abiding faith.

I get a lot of Christians who have mainly read the New Testament (in English only, of course) who are very eager to convince me that belief in Jesus is a logical conclusion to my beliefs (they're fond of a term I find somewhat insulting – "completed Jew"). Those Christians who've actually studied the religion, attended Bible studies with Jews, had close relationships with Jews, etc. generally never bring it up. Perhaps the explanation is that greater understanding of others' beliefs has made them more respectful, which translates for them into a reluctance to challenge others' beliefs. Or maybe, having gotten a better understanding of our conception of G-d, they realize that a divine Jesus just doesn't fit.

Whatever. As long as you don't decide it's a good idea to visit me with Jesus Saves pamphlets on Yom Kippur, I have no problem with you continuing to believe that our beliefs are compatible.

Quote:
Christianity is built upon the foundation of Judaism. If the two cannot be joined, we are a house built on sand.


I disagree completely. I think it's possible for us to coexist without one of us having to give up our religious identity, but I'm well aware that most Christians historically have disagreed, and continue to disagree with that assessment.

Why do you think the Church tortured and killed Jews? Why do you think they encouraged rulers to institute laws to confine Jews to ghettos and curb or even destroy any economic power Jewish settlements might have? Why do you think they encouraged rulers to expel the Jewish populations of their countries? Why do you think they encouraged pogroms? Why do you think they staged rigged debates between Christians and Jews? Good grief, Hitler himself said that he wasn't saying anything that Martin Luther hadn't already said!

I don't think it was just because they were sadists. There are ways to read the New Testament which result in the conclusion that the continued existence of Judaism poses a serious threat to the legitimacy of Christianity as they understand it. And so, if Jews wouldn't convert, they had to get rid of them.

The response of various groups of Christians to Jewish refusals to convert has, at times, bordered on the obsessive.

I'm not saying this to try and convince you that Christianity is bunk and Jews know better and Christians know that. I'm just saying that there's a way to read the New Testament that makes it look as if our refusal to convert is a direct challenge to the legitimacy of Christianity that is somehow more important than anyone else's refusal to convert.

But it's not the only way.

Quote:
If He's not the fulfillment of the law, than Christians are knowingly standing in direct opposition to God, following a false prophet, changing the law, and putting ourselves at emnity with God. There's just no way to sugar coat it as a mistake, either...


Either Christians are right or they're knowingly opposing G-d? I'm sorry, but that's just a false dichotomy.

They couldn't be unknowingly opposing G-d? (That's the most obvious degree in the middle.) They couldn't be getting a few elements wrong (like the idea that there's only one way to get to heaven) but be basically right? This couldn't be a parallel covenant to ours?

I understand that your beliefs do not allow for any of these, just as they do not allow for the second option that you gave, but simply from a reasoning standpoint, the idea that it has to be an either-or proposition is illogical.

Quote:
Everything I've been typing is true, I think, but I am totally missing the point. I am yammering on and on about theology, and not getting to the one thing that matters here.

I could go blabbing on for hours and hours about technicalities, semantics, theologies, comparitive studies, and other useful things. Sometimes I get lost in that stuff. I love discussion. I love the interplay. I love to hear about what others believe. I love to tell what I believe.


I am unsure as to how discussing theology is less "real" than sharing one's feelings in a more direct matter, but okay. I'm also not sure how engaging one's head is mutually exclusive with engaging one's heart. (I think doing either without the other is dangerous.)

Quote:
Please accept my deepest apologies. I have been a fool.


There's nothing to apologize for, unless you consider a relaxed theology discussion wrong. I don't.

Quote:
I have met God. <snip rest of lovely quote>


That was truly lovely, SuperJerms. I'm touched that you trust me enough to expose yourself that way. And I'm deeply glad that you have a relationship with G-d that makes you so happy.

Quote:
I am sure that there is no other way to feel this than to experience it for yourself…I know Him. You can too.


It saddens me greatly that your beliefs insist that I don't already. I know very differently.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 8:40 pm
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daboking
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Joined: 02 Sep 2004
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 		As promised, if I found time, I would dive into this ocean... so here goes:
Phaedra wrote:
Quote:
Why do you think the Church tortured and killed Jews? Why do you think they encouraged rulers to institute laws to confine Jews to ghettos and curb or even destroy any economic power Jewish settlements might have? Why do you think they encouraged rulers to expel the Jewish populations of their countries? Why do you think they encouraged pogroms? Why do you think they staged rigged debates between Christians and Jews? Good grief, Hitler himself said that he wasn't saying anything that Martin Luther hadn't already said!

I don't think it was just because they were sadists. There are ways to read the New Testament which result in the conclusion that the continued existence of Judaism poses a serious threat to the legitimacy of Christianity as they understand it. And so, if Jews wouldn't convert, they had to get rid of them.

You are right. It is sad that so many evil, disgusting things were done supposedly in the name of Jesus! You are right that it is possible to read the new testament even, and draw this conclusion. Church history has many instances against it to give a black eye... many more to go along with the evils done to the Jewish faith. When I look at those things, as one who considers himself devout in his faith, it first grieves me. I have known more than a few of those who try to force their belief system onto everyone (this is what killed my marriage, for example... I was not willing to accept something blindly as a fool when common sense told me it was wrong... my ex's family on the other hand wanted everyone in their mold, so she divorced me), and every time I encounter one that is quick to use their "scripture" to try comforming me, I realized just how much they take passages out of context to manipulate others. They miss the key elements of the faith, and though they can call themselves Christian all day long, it does not make it any more true! I appreciate very much how open you have been and am greatly sorry you have encountered yo-yo's who tried to bully their belief system over yours. Judaism poses no threat to my beliefs, and I hope nothing ever comes out of my keystrokes that seems like a challenge to yours... you seem to be very secure in your beliefs, and I would not want to do or say anything that would appear like those others, with no respect for your traditions, values, etc. My best friend growing up was Jewish.... and I loved the history, heritage, and tradition I saw in his home. I cherish those memories very much and it was a huge part of who I am now. I am on a rant and wished I had collected thoughts better before starting to post as it is time for me to go home and my head is still spinning with things I want to say.... I will have to make time to revisit this thread. Wink I would very much like to dive further into things I quoted you above on, Phaedra (or anyone else for that matter) but TTFN .hoo hoo hoo hooooooooo (like the tigger impersonation?)
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 5:49 pm
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thebruce
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 		I think what you mean to say is that you are a Christian, but it's so very unfortunate (I agree) that the "Church"s history is potmarked with black spots and wrongdoingd and pride and bigotry... and as I described before, Christianity is such a vague term that these days, it's almost digging your own grave to call yourself a Christian because it's the negatives that stand out in people's mind's over positives... people also tend to forget that the Church also punished those who would be considered Christians by today's standards... "The Church" was an organization of the past that was founded incorrectly and led by disturbing people... at least by today's standards. I don't mean to be offensive if anyone is offended by that, I'm just stating my feelings on my beliefs being grouped together with differing beliefs and actions of people I do not agree with, who acted under the banner of Christianity, tainting the name, for what it's worth, for those of us who believe quite different...

Anyway, I thought this part of the topic was done Smile
blah! Back to the futuristic sci-fi AI characters Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:51 pm
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SuperJerms
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 		Heh, it's never done Smile.

At any rate, I had a nice, long, OT post for this thread about a week ago, but I lost it when I accidentally bumped the esc key. Anyway, I chose to PM Phaedra about the more personal stuff at the end of her post. To everyone else out there reading (both of them Wink), I agree with the above. There is a huge difference between the "gospel of love, against which there are no laws" that Jesus taught and the experiences Phaedra has had with Prostelytizers.

In the end, I'll repeat what I wrote to Phaedra. Don't feel saddened if we disagree. Chase after God. He's not hiding from you. I know with every fibre of my being that he wants relationship with you. Seek Him, and you'll find Him.

Lastly, something I didn't address to Phaedra in my PM to her. I don't think it's wrong at all to have a casual theological discussion. It's just that, here I am talking all about God and theology and interfaith dialogue, but I never asked Him what He wanted me to say. I do that sometimes--just go spouting off all the stuff bubbling over in my mind and heart, but forget to ask Him what I should do first. So there I am, looking through texts, and I casually ask God what He wants to get across through me.

His answer stopped me cold. Too much of what I know, and not enough of what I know. Hence, my post.

Love,
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 1:37 am
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daboking
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thebruce wrote:
I think what you mean to say is that you are a Christian, but it's so very unfortunate (I agree) that the "Church"s history is potmarked with black spots and wrongdoing and pride and bigotry... and as I described before, Christianity is such a vague term that these days, it's almost digging your own grave to call yourself a Christian because it's the negatives that stand out in people's mind's over positives...


You are correct that I am a christian... and for the reasons you stated, I was a bit hesitant to use the label. Though the meaning behind the title is wholly valid to me.... the title itself has unfortunately become a culterally offensive term to some thanks to the wrongdoers, prideful, and bigots you refer to (and forgive my guessing, but I would not be surprised if this was the type that Phaedra encountered).

Now I want to be clear to anyone who is vocal in your faith.... I am NOT saying that boldness qualifies you as the type of person thebruce and I refer to. As a christian, according to my faith, if I deny Jesus before men, he denies me before G-d... so I, without hesitation, I am a christian who believes what the Bible says... in regards to loving your neighbor as yourself (which my neighbor is anyone different from myself). Even with the various denominations out there, those who persecute in Jesus' name are not Christian, but evil men with their own agendas. To those of you from other faiths, please forgive my quoting scripture now as I know that it carries very little weight to you, but it is a book more than alive to me (I only mention it now to give you all a better idea of where I am coming from, and to clear up any ideas about whether the bigots and evil doers really are christian)... but according to it, in Genesis 12:3 "I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." This was said to Abraham by G-d, so make no mistake about it... this includes decendants of Abraham!

As a christian, Phaedra, I want to ask your forgiveness on behalf of the foolish folk who have misrepresented, bashed, bullied, and behaved insensitively toward your faith. There is no excuse for it. I could really open up a can of worms to start discussing why "christians" do this in regards to what the Bible says about going into all the world and making disciples, but I will hold off unless conversation moves that way (except to say this... it may be one of the most misunderstood passages which has led to many false agendas). Any kind of persuading one does can be unpersuaded by another.... I am rambling and better get back to work. Sorry for the long response.

Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:07 am
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Phaedra
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Joined: 21 Sep 2004
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thebruce wrote:
Anyway, I thought this part of the topic was done Smile
blah! Back to the futuristic sci-fi AI characters Very Happy


Nah, that's what this thread seems to have evolved into...a tiny corner of the forums where the topic can be literally anything. Any thread here can talk about "futuristic sci-fi AI characters," but only we could produce the sublime level of ilovebees irrelevance achieved here.

And we can even combine it with on-topic [SPEC]. Truly, the breadth of our talent amazes me. Razz

I will be replying, everyone, just haven't had time for anything except on-the-fly posts in the past few days. Hopefully this Sunday. (In which I will also, hopefully, have time to PM the guy who apparently thinks I'm an AI.)

SuperJerms, if the PM you sent me is still in your sentbox, could you resend it? While I was deleting all the messages from Tuesday's axon coordination, I accidentally hit "Delete All" rather than "Delete Marked." Embarassed
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:01 pm
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