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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[SPEC QUESTION] New Relationship of Melissa, PF, and SP
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Sep7imus
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Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 149

[SPEC QUESTION] New Relationship of Melissa, PF, and SP

I may be off base here, but, something strikes me as odd about the latest turn of events (Melissa locking up the Princess).

Before the Princess was locked up, the Pious Flea was able to communicate with her, right? He was not very successful in that she kept rebuffing him, but he kept trying to !grope her and stuff.

Also before the Princess was locked up, Melissa was only dimly aware of her existence, as a rogue process whose location she did not know.

So, was the Pious Flea keeping the Princess's location secret from Melissa? And, if so, why?

After the Princess is locked up, Melissa knows where she is (presumably), but we and the Pious Flea do not (as indicated by his failed !seeking for her on the 404 page).

Is Melissa now keeping the location of the Princess secret from the Pious Flea? And, again, why? And how, given his influence over her?

-Sep7imus
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"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:40 pm
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AngriBuddhist
Entrenched


Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 778
Location: Wa.

All good questions that have no real answers right now.

Some are saying that we must now get rid of the flea but I STRONGLY
disagree. Being one of two free entities on ILB, I think that we need
to find a way to use him.

Kinda like a remote controlled mechanical spy bot.

PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:44 pm
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Kachi
Greenhorn

Joined: 24 Sep 2004
Posts: 5
Location: Near Nottingham, East Midlands, England

Wow... I hope those questions get answered relatively soon... they're intruiging.

As to the Flea keeping the Princess's existence a secret... you're right, that's definitely off. And perhaps Melissa keeping the Princess's new dungeon secret from the Flea is a reflection of the fact she might realise that he could have known about her and not said...

But if the Flea is Covenant (as I believe, although disagree all you like, that's why we're here Smile ), then... what is it about the Princess that kept him from telling Melissa? Did he think she was a threat? Was there just something about the fact she talked to him ... normally... that kept him from saying? I think the Princess did say at one point he whispered secrets into Melissa's ear... I wonder why not THAT secret.

Mmm, more things I have to wait to find out about. Sad

PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:51 pm
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Sep7imus
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Joined: 26 Jul 2004
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Kachi wrote:

But if the Flea is Covenant (as I believe, although disagree all you like, that's why we're here Smile ), then... what is it about the Princess that kept him from telling Melissa?


Well, getting pretty SEPC-y and pretty Halo-y here, but if the PF is a Covenant AI, and the Princess is a Forerunner AI, and Melissa is a Human AI, it may be the case that the PF would try to keep the existence of a Forerunner AI (or anything Forerunner, really) from the humans.

-Sep7imus
_________________
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."
-Sherlock Holmes


PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:54 pm
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daboking
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Joined: 02 Sep 2004
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that makes a lot of sense, sep7imus. I can fully see the Flea being a covenant tool protecting the forunner tech from us... the thing to me, though, is how SP still feels so human. I am certainly open to the idea, and what you propose makes great sense.

PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 3:00 pm
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LordSaryon
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Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 77

Big SPEC

I know this is just alot of SPEC, but what if PF was very much attracted to SP, and now he will update to make himself more "robust"

Say his firmware/software/etc was all back-dated, he really had only one task, and short circuit or whatever made him attracted to the SP, well now she is gone, maybe he will proactively search her out for us?

I know, I know, alot of if's, but it may happen.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 3:02 pm
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Kachi
Greenhorn

Joined: 24 Sep 2004
Posts: 5
Location: Near Nottingham, East Midlands, England

Sep7imus wrote:
Kachi wrote:

But if the Flea is Covenant (as I believe, although disagree all you like, that's why we're here Smile ), then... what is it about the Princess that kept him from telling Melissa?


Well, getting pretty SEPC-y and pretty Halo-y here, but if the PF is a Covenant AI, and the Princess is a Forerunner AI, and Melissa is a Human AI, it may be the case that the PF would try to keep the existence of a Forerunner AI (or anything Forerunner, really) from the humans.

-Sep7imus


Hehe, I don't really get very Halo-y, it only arrived last week direct from Amazon. Smile (Finished it in four days, but meh.) Melissa herself refers to the Covenant on the ilb site... sadly, I got into ilb before Halo, so... hence why I now own an Xbox...

I never really thought of the Princess as Forerunner, I have to admit. She seems too... human, and chatty. I know we send her stuff, but still. (Not to mention that there's an interesting theory floating around somewhere that the Flood themselves are really the Forerunners and they built the Halos as a pre-emptive thing. Shocked ) I think of her as perhaps the first incarnation of Melissa, in case Melissa should get corrupted and need overwriting.

But can you really imagine the Flea talking to Melissa like it does with the Princess?

LordSaryon, I kinda hope you're right: it'd be interesting to see more of the Flea and how he reacts to this.

PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 3:15 pm
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Extrasonic
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Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 233
Location: Suburban Chicago

Melissa's off her rocker. As many others have noted, her mission parameters are totally corrupted by the Flea (seek/behold/reveal). Not only that, but she can't even appreciate the humor in Chappy's brazen attempt to claim that he was a Master Chief from The Pillar of Autumn. (Which, if you're out there Chappy, was a stroke of comedic genius.) Simply put, she's completely nutters.

The only thing that SP has done more often than deriding the Flea's intelligence is tell us that she's an expert at hiding and that she's a survivor. With Melissa non compos mentis and the Flea, well, sort of slow, I don't think that it would have taken much for the SP to trick them both into thinking she'd been captured.

In other words, I think the SP is still in (deep) hiding. The real question in my mind is "where is she going to turn up next?"
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 3:25 pm
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Centipede
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Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 439
Location: Bronx, NY

I've posted this in bits and pieces on other threads, but this seems like a good place to tie them all together so here goes.

It is my belief that Melissa has been corrupted by the PF which is a Covenant AI/virus. The fact that he is far more primative than the other two AI's supports this, as does the name PIOUS Flea. I think the SP is a Forerunner AI and that Humans are re-evolved Forerunners. This would explain Sparky (fro the game) assuming that the MC and the marines were Forerunners returning to activate the Halo. That alone lead me to think that the Forerunners were very human like to begin with. I also noticed that Sparky doesn't refer to the Covenant as Returners which lends evidence to the fact that they are not the Forerunners nor descended from them. The Forerunners knew that the Flood fed off sentince, so it's entirely possible that they devolved themselves to deny the Flood sustenance in the hope of starving them out. (Not that far fetched, they were willing to destroy all life in teh universe in order to stop the Flood) If we are the re-evolved Forerunners and the SP is a Forerunner AI, the fact that the SP seems so Human would make perfect sense.

Working on the assumption that the PF is a Covenant AI, it would definitely attempt to !grope and !attach the SP. The Covenant's technoiogy is based entirely on the Forerunners, except their AI. They do not have very advanced AI as yet, and capturing a Forerunner AI to adapt would be a primary goal of any Covenant entity encountering one. He would keep the SP form the Queen in order to prevent his ruse of being hte SPDR from being discovered.

The SP never did anything to inhibit the Queen, just hid and didn't allow the Queen to capture her. If the SP is a Forerunner AI and Human are the Forerunners re-evolved, then the SP would be more than curious about us. That's why she is willing to talk to us and play games with us, she wants to learn more aobut us. In contrast, if she were a Covanent AI, she wouldn't understand us enough to play games, and most likely wouldn't be interested.

That's my .02

PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 3:39 pm
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smirkinghint
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Joined: 21 Aug 2004
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I think the flea is going to come into play a lot more than we thought.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:58 pm
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Anton P. Nym
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Joined: 25 Jul 2004
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Location: London, Canada

Kachi wrote:
Hehe, I don't really get very Halo-y, it only arrived last week direct from Amazon. Smile (Finished it in four days, but meh.) Melissa herself refers to the Covenant on the ilb site... sadly, I got into ilb before Halo, so... hence why I now own an Xbox...

So the insidious master plan is working. (viral marketing... catchy, ain't it?)

Quote:
I never really thought of the Princess as Forerunner, I have to admit. She seems too... human, and chatty.

Remember the character 343 Guilty Spark. Rather human and chatty, too, and almost certainly Forerunner. (the only doubt is that he may be lying... but I can't think of a reason why he would be.) That ol' genius was quite the character, and not too far from what we've seen from the Sleeping Princess.

Quote:
LordSaryon, I kinda hope you're right: it'd be interesting to see more of the Flea and how he reacts to this.

I too will be interested to see if the Flea can help us access SP. I think we're going to get a better understanding of all three processes soon, now that Melissa is interacting directly and we have Seeker doing what he does best.

-- Steve can't take a direct part in the ARG, but the sidelines aren't exactly dull.
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Institute for Advanced ILB Research

Fireflies Wiki contributor. Sorta.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:36 am
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chaotic_mind
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Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 325
Location: Inside my head, behind the eyes

Centipede wrote:
The Covenant's technoiogy is based entirely on the Forerunners, except their AI.


Whoa...I had always assumed that, indeed, their AIs were based off Forerunner AIs.

Not only that, but the Covenant AIs were copied, corrupted, and coverted AIs.

Did I miss something?

Don't assume the humans are Forerunner 2.0 (the crappy version). There are clues pointing towards some relationship, but...it's Bungie! They can come up with something more original.

Though I jest, I remain firm that we can't say the humans are Forerunner 2.0, just that there's is some sort of relationship.

My money is on Dr. Halsey being a Forerunner spy! Very Happy

I think the Flea is not known to Melissa. She has no reason to communicate her knowledge to him. The Flea can "convince" her to seek out information, and perhaps encourage her to be careless with the recipient of that information.

Do I think he can convince her to hand the info over to the Covenant. Truly, no idea, but my gut says no. The Flea needs to be more subtle.

The Flea is not a direct, remote control for Melissa. He's the subtle corruption slow and fastidiously influencing the subject. No direct control, just a descent into darkness.

As to using the Flea...I am reminded of the post-Flood levels on Halo. There the Covenant, though not an ally, were a tactical advantage against the Flood. More than once, the Covenant and the Flood fighting made my job as the Master Chief Petty Officer of the SPARTANS a mite easier.

kachi wrote:
I think of her as perhaps the first incarnation of Melissa, in case Melissa should get corrupted and need overwriting.


As far as I know, it doesn't work that way. Humans can't copy AIs.

Know who can? Covenant. Know where they got this ability? Not really, but the safe money's on Forerunner.

Extrasonic wrote:
In other words, I think the SP is still in (deep) hiding. The real question in my mind is "where is she going to turn up next?"


If she was chosing to make her appearance known, there seem to be a few avenues Melissa passed over. The corrupted images, the hidden pages (not really 404 pages, though they act like it), and potentially the e-mail address.

And, perhaps, the pay phones.

And, there's no reason the Princess can't be both a copy of Melissa and a Forerunner AI. Remember who probably has copying software.

Luke P.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:22 am
Last edited by chaotic_mind on Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sep7imus
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Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 149

Re: [SPEC QUESTION] New Relationship of Melissa, PF, and SP

Hmm... Before I hijacked my own thread and turned it into a bunch of Halo-y Spec, I said:

Sep7imus wrote:
Before the Princess was locked up, the Pious Flea was able to communicate with her, right? He was not very successful in that she kept rebuffing him, but he kept trying to !grope her and stuff.

Also before the Princess was locked up, Melissa was only dimly aware of her existence, as a rogue process whose location she did not know.
So, was the Pious Flea keeping the Princess's location secret from Melissa? And, if so, why?

We now know that the answer to this is "Yes, the PF was keeping the Princess's location secret," since she begs him to keep hiding her in the latest email transcript of the action as she is captured. We still don't know why he did, or why he stopped doing so. This may suggest some limits to the PF's power/influence over Melissa.
Sep7imus wrote:
After the Princess is locked up, Melissa knows where she is (presumably), but we and the Pious Flea do not (as indicated by his failed !seeking for her on the 404 page).

I'm no longer sure about the last part of that statement. Perhaps the PF does know where she is being kept but can't/won't reveal it to us.
Sep7imus wrote:
Is Melissa now keeping the location of the Princess secret from the Pious Flea? And, again, why? And how, given his influence over her?

All still valid questions, I think.

Of course, now the relevant questions are:
Where is the Sleeping Princess?
How can we free her?
Should we free her?
With whom can we communicate, and how?

-Melissa, via her phone calls, is the only one we know for sure.
-possibly someone (PF?) at the other end of the Ladybee777 address.

-Sep7imus
_________________
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."
-Sherlock Holmes


PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:35 am
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ariock
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SP and the Artifact

Isn't it now proven that the SP was not from the artifact found by the Apocalypso? The fact that Melissa was able to return the SP to her prison indicates that Melissa has some control over that prison. To date there is no evidence to support that Melissa was in any way able to control the artifact.

If that is true, then I think it supports the possibility that SP is the consciousness of the child that the Melissa AI was based on. As far as the PF....it is the only remaining candidate AI that could be related to the artifact. Assuming any must be related to it.
_________________
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When the Apocalypse comes, it'll be in base64.


PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:43 am
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chaotic_mind
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Joined: 03 Aug 2004
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Location: Inside my head, behind the eyes

Sep7imus wrote:
We now know that the answer to this is "Yes, the PF was keeping the Princess's location secret," since she begs him to keep hiding her in the latest email transcript of the action as she is captured.


The Sleeping Princess wrote:
Uh-oh. How did—Tell her to go away!

Tell her not to look! Make her not see me, you dumb bug! Please, I'm begging you, I'm begging you, I'm beg—


I didn't read this as the Flea betraying the Princess. I read this as the Princess attempt to gamble on the Flea's influence over Melissa. She was hoping, as we thought, that the Flea had a pretty strong control over Melissa.

I think this reveals that, in fact, he doesn't.

The Flea influences, but does not control. He's not a "mind-reader", meaning he can't step inside Melissa's head.

As to Melissa finding out, let's not forger Lt. Weephun's little admission.

Where is the Sleeping Princess?

I would guess in hiding. Extrasonic's spec seems sound. If the Princess was back in the coffin, how could she communicate when Melissa goes whacko.

How can we free her?

No idea, but she may be free already, just waiting for the chance when Melissa falls apart. My guess would follow the "chanting ilovebees" speculation.

Should we free her?

Haha! Good question. I don't know. But, the Princess has been the only character to be an ally, whatever she may do in the future. I say yes.

With whom can we communicate, and how?

Melissa, using payphones. The lady777@hotmail address, but I'm not sure that's functional. That probably heads to the Flea, but whether he can understand our terrible SPDR code, or our English? No idea. Can't add to your speculation in that area.

That's my view. Rather LONG view, eh?

Luke P.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:46 am
Last edited by chaotic_mind on Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:54 am; edited 2 times in total
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