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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): Puzzles
[SOLVESOLVESOLVE]Oct 8th PREPOSITION PUZZLE:usernameguy
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

 		3l337 H4X0R
I read l337 too. I saw the previous post reverse engineering the answer.

I still don't see how we could have worked it out from the given clues without massive, massive trial and error

My objections:

l337 is a "look like" not "sounds like" language. The "sounds like" part of the clue made l337 seem unlikely. Also, I discussed using l337 for 41 with a few people. We rejected it as it seemed unlikely both for the reason above and because we didn't think the SP would use it.

Even if we did get to ai: We have five ai in this game (if you include the SPDR), how were we supposed to know it was Melissa?

If we worked out it was Melissa, how would we have been able to chose from her many names? Operator? Queen? Laura? Yasmine?

Finally, the link from Queen to Pawn? from "ai pre-position"? in a story that has smart ai's created from humans?

I think we did grasp pre-position fairly quickly, so I don't object to that.

What I object to is the massive trial and error inherent in the puzzle.
(Even if we had all looked at it and immediately said, "ok, that must mean 'ai pre-position' ")

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:22 pm
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Wizarbo
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Joined: 14 Oct 2004
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 		Re: bandwagon
MrBeefy wrote:
Scott wrote:
WHAT???
that's stupid. it's not even stupid obvious, it's just random! i fFeel so cheated. i want my brain-cycles back!



* MrBeefy concurs.

What a sloppy puzzle.

Good puzzles make you say "oh man... I should've thought of that" at the end. This one just makes me sad.

)Sad


i so agree. I looked for a list of prepositions and got like 150. there wasn't any apparent way to solve it from the original other than sheer guessing. Still NJ dude. Most of us were trying to get something we thought they would say; since Rani is a spy we were all for mission and proposition. So it does make since that someone who hasn't followed the story gets it. I was actually thinking "i shouldn't need to have heard any other files to get this, its just a puzzle that doesnt really involve the bees site at all" but my mid was stuck in a damn glass box and i couldn't get out. once again nice job!
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:27 pm
Last edited by Wizarbo on Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MrBeefy
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 		Re: bandwagon
Shad0 wrote:


Let's recap, shall we?

BKs: I hate this game! (repeat ad naseum)



That's quite a bit of conjecture, wild generalization and faulty attribution.

Personally, I've never complained about any other puzzles besides this one. If someone has complained about other puzzles in the past, that does not make all other puzzles beyond reproach.


It was a bad puzzle


The rest of the game has been wonderful.

However, in this particular case, a turd was found in the pool.

The fact that some swimmers need water-wings, while others are on the Olympic team does not change the fact that I will not swim in it either way.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:28 pm
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skyhawk0000
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 		in My day we didnt complain when a puzzle got solved, no sir..

Very Happy

but yeah.. wow.. great job usernameguy!
may this go down in history as that really hard puzzle that was.. err.. really hard.. and annoying
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:36 pm
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Shad0
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Joined: 20 Jun 2004
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 		Re: bandwagon
MrBeefy wrote:
Shad0 wrote:
Let's recap, shall we?

BKs: I hate this game! (repeat ad naseum)

That's quite a bit of conjecture, wild generalization and faulty attribution.

Personally, I've never complained about any other puzzles besides this one. If someone has complained about other puzzles in the past, that does not make all other puzzles beyond reproach.

It was a bad puzzle

The rest of the game has been wonderful.

However, in this particular case, a turd was found in the pool.

The fact that some swimmers need water-wings, while others are on the Olympic team does not change the fact that I will not swim in it either way.

Thou hast misunderstood my point. (Which, no doubt, means that I didn't state it very well. What a surprise.) I never meant to imply that you -- or any other individual Beekeeper -- has complained every step of the way. But look at it from the point of view of the poor PMs. They see us as a group. They're trying to make this ARG enjoyable for us as a group. And it seem that they can't win no matter how they try to please us as a group.

There is no conjecture or faulty attribution in my post. (I'll freely admit to the wild generalization, though, for the sake of artistic license. I'm pretty sure no one actually said "Those Censored PMs! I hate this game!" Mr. Green ) Every single one of those complaints has been made, in these very forums. If you really want me to, I'll be happy to spend the time Searching to find links to specific posts for each of them. You've been around long enough that I bet you remember them, though.

My point -- obscure though it may have been -- is that whenever the PMs try to give the players what they want, they still get complaints. If I were in their shoes, I'd be at the point where I threw up my hands and stopped trying to please the players. And that, in my opinion, would be a terrible shame.
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These were the puzzles that would take a day, these were puzzles that would take a week, and these puzzles they'd probably never figure out until we broke down and gave them the answers. ... The Cloudmakers solved all of these puzzles on the first day.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:40 pm
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Elec
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 		Honestly, I think where this was broken was the list of prepositions.

It seems to me there were two clues here. First clue was the 41 prepositions = AI pre-positions. That's a good 'un and could possibly have led to the answer on its own if we had gone in the right direction with it. Second clue was SOUNDS LIKE. Here's where it falls apart. Obviously there are more than 41 prepositions, but they had to cut it down to 41 to make clue 1 work. Someone said "There's probably a list on the internet with 42 prepositions - the ones we got, plus upon". I'd believe it, but the problem is there are so many other prepositions or lists of prepositions, it's like looking for a needle. IN a haystack. Or UNDER a haystack Smile Upon was actually in my list/song (page 50) but I had no reason to suspect it. Personally, I'd have put upon in the list we got so it was more likely to come under scrutiny, rather than leaving it off and hoping we'd realize it was missing. I may have even put it first, as that has the double bonus of making it seem important and placing the word "upon" upon the others in the list.

The problem though is that there are only two ways you would have arrived at upon with the list we got (where it was missing). One is if you happened to find the afforementioned mythical list of 42 prepositions. The other is if you already knew the answer and were working backwards. But if you already knew the answer, you wouldn't care about upon. The real lesson here may be seeing just how many different directions you can take a somewhat vague puzzle due to coincidence or ingenuity.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:40 pm
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MrBeefy
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 		re-butt-le
I agree with Elec here, and thank Shad0 for retro-actively softening the blow.


But the main point was ultimately the word "turd."



-
I don't have a sig... I wish for more space at the bottom...

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:47 pm
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Ralen
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Quote:
41 prepositions leads to: AI pre-position

In other words, what was the AI before her current position, or what was the Queen before she was a Queen?

So I think the answer is a word or words for what she was before a Queen.



The link from Queen to Pawn is purely chess related, and has nothing to do with the preposition list or Melissa herself. In chess when a pawn reaches the opposite end of the board, it becomes a Queen, and therefore "A Pawn" is the answer to the riddle "What was she before she became a Queen?".

The riddle wasn't supposed to be complicated enough to try to gather "AI Pre-position" from it, we were just supposed to somehow figure out that "upon" was a major item missing from the list, and then try to think of a rhyme for it.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:19 pm
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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 		one minute
I think it is a bit unfair to the players and the PMs to equate discussion about why a puzzle didn't work with boorish whining or unjust complaining about the PMs or the game. A puzzle that can only be solved through extensive trial and error is just not a good idea. It becomes more of an intelligent brute force than a solve.

My points: [assuming the solve was based on 41 pre-postition]
there is no way to get from "41" to "ai" on the basis of "sounds like"

there is no way to get from "ai" to "Queen" without extensive trial and error

My points: [assuming the solve was based on finding a missing preposition - upon] ( which I think is the most likely one)

there is a large (and varied) number of prepositions that are not on the list

there is no way to take each of the missing ones and substitute words that "sounds like" each of them without extensive trial and error. We should have taken a list and systematically analyzed it for prepositions that have other words that sound like them. That was our error.

there seems to be no reason to have 41 prepositions in the list - other than to lessen the number that we would have to try.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:21 pm
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Torrasque
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 		Personally I don't think we may ever actually know the direct intent of the PM's with this puzzle. Most likely there will be two equally valid and opposite beliefs as to the correct way to solve the puzzle.

In all honesty, upon only came up after the solve because it sounds like a pawn. Back to my original arguement, the riddle may have absolutely nothing to do with original clues for the puzzle. Therefore we should diregard the preposition list and sounds like clues and just answer the riddle.

SP wrote:
I am going to give you an Official Hint about You Know What, so you don't have to be under and over and beside yourselves anymore.


I think it would be pointless to continue to debate this with no real way to ever come up with an answer unless the PM's tell us their thought process on the matter. Unless you just want to be able to say "I told you so" when and if they do tell us.

Lets just all be happy it's over with, throw a lock on this thread, and get on with the game. We can settle our difference in multiplayer. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:58 pm
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AngriBuddhist
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 		usernameguy, thanks for the shout-out. I posted that after I was
already running late for work. It seemed important so I thought I would
plop it in here and let someone smack it around. Nice Job!!!

PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:10 am
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Darketnal
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 		Congrats usernameguy, that one was a doozy. But Fun.[/b]

PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 2:57 am
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Checksum
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Ralen wrote:
Quote:
41 prepositions leads to: AI pre-position

In other words, what was the AI before her current position, or what was the Queen before she was a Queen?

So I think the answer is a word or words for what she was before a Queen.



The link from Queen to Pawn is purely chess related, and has nothing to do with the preposition list or Melissa herself. In chess when a pawn reaches the opposite end of the board, it becomes a Queen, and therefore "A Pawn" is the answer to the riddle "What was she before she became a Queen?".

The riddle wasn't supposed to be complicated enough to try to gather "AI Pre-position" from it, we were just supposed to somehow figure out that "upon" was a major item missing from the list, and then try to think of a rhyme for it.


I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. None of these puzzles have been put together in a way other than deliberately. With each puzzle, there has been a specific method (even if only seen in retrospect) that should be used to deduce the answer.

Since there are dozens of prepositions not included on the list, it's highly dubious that they would count on us to come up with "upon" then find a rhyme for it.

SP's clue follows along the same lines as their original intent - that we should think of what a queen is before she has the position of queen. In my mind, SP's clue fits too well with "41 prepositions" -> AI pre-positions to be only coincidence.

Anyway, it's over and solved now, and I'll look forward to hearing what things were like on the PMs' side of it during this last week. Would have loved to be a fly on the wall as they watched us work on it. Wink

Cheers! Smile

-checksum

PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:04 am
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HitsHerMark
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Checksum wrote:


Since there are dozens of prepositions not included on the list, it's highly dubious that they would count on us to come up with "upon" then find a rhyme for it.



Except that "upon" follows the rule of "The cat ran <blank> the car."

Now there are exceptions to that rule, and I had thought that there were 41 exceptions to that rule... But obviously... There's 42.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:13 am
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Scott
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HitsHerMark wrote:
Checksum wrote:


Since there are dozens of prepositions not included on the list, it's highly dubious that they would count on us to come up with "upon" then find a rhyme for it.



Except that "upon" follows the rule of "The cat ran <blank> the car."

Now there are exceptions to that rule, and I had thought that there were 41 exceptions to that rule... But obviously... There's 42.


eh? that's like, my given explanation of what a preposition is, yo. the cat can go <any_preposition>.

Like, ok, it's just a game, and, i mean, it made sense to *someone*, and thats terrific and proves the puzzle isnt an utter loss. You know, and, like, every puzzle isnt gonna be what i define as logical. that's the whole point, right. but, i dunno .. as a matter of personal opinion -- and i'm really just venting here -- there's over a hundred and fFifty prepositions (which i know because a sadistic 6th grade teacher made me memorize them all) and reinforcing what checksum said, the idea of trying any word which sounds like all of them is... well, fFirst off it would require brute fForce checking every possible variety, then guessing up a bunch of other concievables based on 2 and 3 words strung together --- which i'm thinking usernameguy must've started on or something.

having the answer now, i can see a bunch of ways the answer can fFit the puzzle. but the answer could just as easily have been several thousand other things. as evidenced by the sixty pages of perfectly valid guesses.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:39 am
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