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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[SPEC] Melissa, Durga, and SP... Rampant?
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gains
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 		That raises an interesting point about the differences between AI, human and computer intelligence.

If you feed a computer data without the proper header code, it doesn't know what it's receiving and discards it (basically) as junk data.

If I drop a piece of paper covered in nonsense words on your desk, you try to figure out if they have any meaning.

The AIs respond following the second example rather than the first. They attempt to decode all that they receive, cataloging, tagging and storing it all.

Human minds do the same, but with limited accuracy.

For an AI to receive data and not know its source is akin to human "hallucinations." Voices out of nowhere, files with no entry date, data with no header code.

And now we're back to the whole AI insanity vs. human insanity thing again.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:35 pm
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Lakhesis
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 		*OT* - if anyone wants to play the original Marathon, PM me. I can point you to a perfectly legal and free solution. If I get too many PMs, I'll just start a thread in the general forum.


Chrono2x - check your PMs. Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:36 pm
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Hyacinthe
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 		Cortana isn't that old, in terms of smart AIs, but she herself ponders in First Strike (while John is on the Unyielding Hierophant with the copy of Cortana) I think, what the information she has contained from all the incidents on Halo has done to her systems. So maybe the aging process of Smart AIs is based on the works they accomplish and not so much time.

I dunno, that may be wild spec, but Cortana does question her stability quite a few times
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:40 pm
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lonespartan
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 		[quote="Daddy"]It's possible Melissa made a copy of herself (or at least an un-infected sub-routine in her programming) for some task she felt she had to complete.[/quote]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but in FS Cortana split herself multiple times when they boarded the Covenant ship. She ended up almost destroying herself in the process. [spec] This would point me to believe that Melissa/Durga/SP may be in the same situation and they are all "shorting out" due the the multiple splits. I mean whose to say that if they were all copies of each other that more copies exist and we just don't know about them yet. [/spec] Confused

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:53 pm
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Phaedra
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Lakhesis wrote:
I believe that I've used the wrong medical term. I said schizophrenia when what I meant was Disassociative Identity Disorder (or Multiple Personality Disorder). Serves me right for not checking myself beforehand.

Anyway, to restate: is it possible that DID is the first stage of rampancy for Smart AIs?


I suppose in a way. I actually already posted regarding AIs and DID, but it was more focused on why one couldn't treat DID in an AI with human-style psychotherapy, even if DID did exist among AIs. I'll still repost most of it here, since it may be relevant:

Phaedra wrote:
The idea that they are all parts of the same personality is interesting, but in the end, unless the writers have a detailed and up-to-date understanding of psychology, the real techniques for dealing with a problem like that are irrelevant. If the storyline *is* that Melissa has DID (dissociative identity disorder, f/k/a "multiple personality disorder"), then it is likely that they are going on popular conceptions of MPD, rather than actual research; therefore if the solution they have envisaged involves us as players responding to her as if she has MPD (as it is understood in pop culture), you'd be better off watching "Sybil" or "Primal Fear" than inquiring as to how a therapist would respond to a real-life patient who was presenting these symptoms.

If the writers do have a therapist or psychiatrist on staff, I doubt that's the tack they're taking. A real-life therapist would probably tell them that identity disorders are inseparably bound up with issues of memory, and the "memory" of a computer or AI is dramatically different from human memory, making it unlikely that even an AI intended to be as human-like as possible would ever manifest a dissociative disorder in response to a trauma.

At this point, if you have no interest in psychology, please stop reading as I'm likely to bore you to tears.

Problem #1: Psychologists disagree vehemently on the question of whether MPD/DID actually exists. There are therapists who passionately believe that it does. There are also therapists who passionately believe in demonic possession. While I am not saying that the two groups are equivalent in their credibility, the fact that someone has a Ph.D. does not necessarily mean that you should believe whatever they say. There are some people with Ph.D.s giving seminars on incorporating exorcism into therapy sessions.

There are plenty of therapists out there that are kooks because when it comes down to it, we still really have very little *definite* information on how the mind works: in some ways, psychotherapy is like religion -- you end up following a school or a technique because you believe in it, and there is evidence both to support and to undermine its validity. Freud's idea of the ego/id/superego, despite its popularity and durability, is a theory, nothing more. I'm not sure it's even possible for us to ever know for sure *how* our minds work. All we can do is theorize, and if it makes sense, and if that particular view of the mind helps us to develop ways of dealing with problems that result in people living happier, more stable lives, than we will treat it as true. But we won't ever know. So, to extend the religion metaphor, while most therapists will be roughly equivalent to your average, reasonable person of faith, whether mainstream Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. or atheist, or your random spiritual seeker of goodwill and intelligence, you're also going to have people who believe that Elvis was taken away by aliens but will return to lead us to a future in which we are all deities who have pink hair and speak Esperanto.

Many psychologists believe that "MPD," like memories of Satanic Ritual Abuse, is induced by the suggestion of the therapist. Human memory may be more malleable than we ever imagined. Stanford professor Elizabeth Loftus has demonstrated that "repressed" memories can be created very easily, and often are experienced as more vivid and more "reliable" than real memories.

In the 80s, there was a flood of MPD cases. It later came out that the majority of the "MPD" patients had come in with minor emotional disorders, which became full-blown MPD under the suggestion and guidance of the therapist. The therapeutic environment can easily result in a power differential between the therapist and the client that can cause more harm than good if the therapist isn't careful. This is not to say that the therapists who treated the aforementioned MPD patients were necessarily unscrupulous or unethical (although some of them were). But many were True Believers in their Cause and their patients suffered because of it.

That said, none of this rules out the possibility that some of the cases where patients' personalities seem to have split are real. The existence of a disorder like MPD is difficult to prove either way, which is one of the reasons that the name has been altered and the description changed. There are a whole host of dissociative disorders that are, as far as anyone can tell, completely legitimate.

So, to sum up: we don't know that MPD exists.

Problem #2: Machine memory works differently than human memory.

As I described above, much of the current research on human memory indicates that memory is vulnerable to the power of suggestion. In addition, (please preface everything I state from this point on with "the research suggests that") memory is not a camera -- it doesn't objectively record what a person sees or hears. What is "recorded" is dictated by what the person is paying attention to, how they're feeling, what they believe is happening, etc. What a person "remembers" although it may be subjectively "true" to them, often will bear little or no resemblance to the memories of another person who saw or heard the exact same thing.

Machine memory is not like that. Machines record. Period. Even an AI as sophisticated as Melissa is likely to record objectively, simply because that is a feature that her creators would want to retain. Her memories of conversations, such as that between Greene and what's-his-name, appear to be verbatim. Even if we get to the point where we manage to develop AI with actual emotion (and not just reactions programmed to suggest it) it is doubtful that that would undermine the ability of a machine to simply record what it sees or hears.

Problem #3: How much do the writers understand about MPD?

See above.

Problem #4: How do you treat a machine with a personality disorder?

Presumably, you don't give it therapy; you fix the flaws in its programming.

Problem #5: Dissociative disorders are usually accompanied by other problems.

If she were a human suffering from a dissociative disorder, it would likely be accompanied by post-traumatic stress disorder and depression -- at least.

Problem #6: What we have of a backstory seems to suggest that Melissa's problems were caused by whatever catastrophe caused her to crash-land on ilovebees.com. In other words, if she were human, I'd be referring her to a neurologist, not trying to give her therapy at this point. I'd be looking for brain damage, not a trauma that caused her to attempt to flee or dissociate from herself. After she'd been checked out by a neurologist, and whatever physical problems he/she found had been addressed, then I'd reassess her and address the emotional/psychological effects of the trauma. She's a sophisticated AI from the future who was damaged in some catastrophe and is now trapped in primitive hardware. I'm not even sure that there is any analogous human situation, but at best, major portions of her brain are damaged. How bound up is the core of Melissa with her hardware? Even an extraordinarily sophisticated and adaptable programs is, presumably, going to have difficulty functioning normally on a primitive system.


I don't think what's happened to the Three Graces is DID, because I don't believe that DID exists.

But even if I did, this is different. In classic Multiple Personality Disorder, each personality was a complete personality in and of itself, to the point where the different personalities would require different glasses prescriptions, have different allergies, etc. There were even cases suggesting that one personality was diabetic while the others were not. These personalities did not present themselves as components of an original personality that was shattered into fragments by the trauma -- they presented as completely new personalities that developed as a defense mechanism. The "original" personality continues to exist, more or less unchanged. Despite the theories around treating MPD -- that the personalities had to be "reintegrated" -- they did not necessarily correspond to personality traits that were present in the "original" personality. Which is probably why the whole question of diagnosis and treatment became so messy, and ultimately, lost its credibility.

Durga, Melissa, and the Sleeping Princess all seem to me to be too incomplete, and too much a part of one original personality.

Melissa may bear the original name, but she is not the Melissa of the Apocalypso. Her personality back then seemed closer to Durga: reasonably well-adjusted, competent, self-examining, and sociable; Melissa as we know her is paranoid, antisocial, monofocused and not particularly adaptable. The Sleeping Princess seems to be elements of the personality that were repressed (probably by programming): the personality of the little girl from whom Melissa was made.

The spitting apart of various elements of the AI personality may indeed be the first stage of rampancy, but I don't think it's DID. Splits this neat wouldn't, I think, occur in a human psyche. But that's because a human psyche isn't a program. Programs have identifiable structures, and ultimately are more rigid than human minds, so presumably they'd be easier to split.

Lakhesis wrote:
I picked the name mainly because I'm in the process of writing a story wherein one of the characters is named Lachesis and I'm fond of him.


Him?

Lakhesis wrote:
Combine that with the fact that I couldn't get lachesis at [censored] dot com, and I went digging for an older spelling of the name as a substitute. That and since I play a large number of FPS games, Halo included, I thought that going about as the Fate responsible for measuring each human life was better than other possible handles. Smile


<chuckle> That makes sense.

Lakhesis wrote:
As for the quote, I picked it for a number of reasons, one of which was that I just saw Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind a few weeks ago and loved it.


Ah. I've not seen it yet, but I hope to soon.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:54 pm
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thebruce
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lonespartan wrote:
This would point me to believe that Melissa/Durga/SP may be in the same situation and they are all "shorting out" due the the multiple splits. I mean whose to say that if they were all copies of each other that more copies exist and we just don't know about them yet.


Spoiler (Rollover to View):
Surprised Durga killed a part of herself when she killed Jeannie! And Bev, well, she's such a specialized copy that it's not even funny! Well, it is funny, but it's quite sad...

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:56 pm
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Lurking_Kouzou
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Checksum wrote:
The reason Durga thinks she's going rampant is that she's getting access to the Herzog sound clips and she doesn't know how. Well, WE (with PF's help) are the ones doing that. She's not going rampant; someone else is injecting memories into her.

Her crash through slipstream has possibly split her personality across time. So she's not all there due to the accident.

In other words, Durga isn't falling apart. She's being manipulated by outside events in a way that means she can't perceive the manipulation. If that were happening to you, you'd think you were going crazy, too.

So I think Durga is doing better than she thinks she is.

-checksum


I'd be inclined to agree. That is sort of where I was going with the original post. Durga is actually doing just fine, she is merely interpreting the input signals from Melissa, Pious Flea, and SP as Haloverse Rampancy. So if we could sever the connection between the past and the future, that would result in a much more stable Durga to run the show. However, that means that the Melissa and SP back in 2004 would probably be either non functional, or so crazy as to effectively be non functional. (And we'd lose our ability to hear the wavs from the future)

I'm still curious about where the Pious Flea came from. I do hope that we get some insight into that before this all ends.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:28 pm
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Ceantari
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 		Here's some dates that need verifications:

These three dates are to establish the years and months that past:

* 2535.02.12 - Lambda Serpentis System / Jerico VII fell
* 2552.07.17 - Sigma Octanus IV rescued
* 2552.08.30 - Reach falls

From TFoR, it gave an exact date to when the SPARTAN-II project initialized:

* 2517.11.23 - SPARTAN-II project begins

And the candidates were 6 years old at the time, which meant that they were born during the year of 2511. Which means that by current 2552, those still alive are 41 years old (including the Master Chief).

Thanks to our new sets of audios, the times get conflicting regarding the SPARTAN training.

It is still 2552 and Kamal is 25 years old, which means he was born sometimes in 2527. Yasmine is 4 years younger than he; she was born in 2531. Both were born past the SPARTAN-II candidate selection. In 2537, Kamal was 10 years old and Yasmine was 6 years old. Yasmine was pulled into the SPARTAN training and replaced with a flash clone. By the year 2545, Yasmine undergone 8 years of SPARTAN training.

* 2527.XX.XX - Kamal was born
* 2531.XX.XX - Kamal was 4 / Yasmine was born
* 2537.XX.XX - Kamal was 10 / Yasmine was 6
* 2545.XX.XX - Kamal was 18 / Yasmine was 14
* 2552.XX.XX - Kamal is 25 / Yasmine would've been 21

Sounds like there's a SPARTAN-III project.

Okay, 2545 wasn't a good year from what I'm speculating. I remember that at ages 14 is when the SPARTAN candidates undergo their surgical operations. Some make it, others do not. I'm guessing that Yasmine didn't. But she did become a potential candidate for the brain-cloning for smart-AI's.

2552 - 2545 = a 7 years gap

If so, sadly to admit that Yasmine died twice so far.
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gains
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 		Hmmm . . .

Interesting thoughts. but what if the personalities aren't actually communicating? They could simply be copies of the same AI that is simply discovering its "memories" as it salvages damaged files.

Melissa could be the back-up copy of Durga, set to launch and repair if there is a catastrophic system failure (like the Covenant destroying the planet.) The transmissions etc. are just information packets it's digging out of deep storage to try to sort out its bearings. Some are more complex than others, perhaps even storing active AI copies, hence the live calls.

So, are we helping or hurting Melissa by playing along with this process? Do we really want a healthy, happy AI mind from half a millenium in the future running around loose? She's already made some enemies, and is working hard to screw them.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:48 pm
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Guido Jones
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Quote:
Please correct me if I am wrong, but in FS Cortana split herself multiple times when they boarded the Covenant ship. She ended up almost destroying herself in the process. [spec] This would point me to believe that Melissa/Durga/SP may be in the same situation and they are all "shorting out" due the the multiple splits. I mean whose to say that if they were all copies of each other that more copies exist and we just don't know about them yet. [/spec] Confused


The ability for an AI to copy themselves was not standard - it was a utility that the convenant had in their database when Cortana took over the ship and killed the Covenant AI. It is possible that Melissa found the copy utility on the artifact and chose to copy herself as well, but I find it unlikely.
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Phaedra wrote:

Durga, Melissa, and the Sleeping Princess all seem to me to be too incomplete, and too much a part of one original personality.

Melissa may bear the original name, but she is not the Melissa of the Apocalypso. Her personality back then seemed closer to Durga: reasonably well-adjusted, competent, self-examining, and sociable; Melissa as we know her is paranoid, antisocial, monofocused and not particularly adaptable. The Sleeping Princess seems to be elements of the personality that were repressed (probably by programming): the personality of the little girl from whom Melissa was made.


I believe Melissa's "crash" onto the ILB server in 2K4 and subsequent rebuild (courtesy of SPDR) is the main reason for her not seeming like the "Melissa of the Apocalypso". I'd be "paranoid, antisocial, monofocused" if I'd gone through what she has. Bang Head
Being influenced/controlled by the Flea doesn't help either.

This is why I believe Durga is a copy (or partial one) of Melissa while she was still onboard the Apocalypso, before the 'crash'.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:56 pm
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Nova
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Ceantari wrote:
Okay, 2545 wasn't a good year from what I'm speculating. I remember that at ages 14 is when the SPARTAN candidates undergo their surgical operations. Some make it, others do not. I'm guessing that Yasmine didn't. But she did become a potential candidate for the brain-cloning for smart-AI's.

2552 - 2545 = a 7 years gap

If so, sadly to admit that Yasmine died twice so far.


I'm not sure I follow. You're talking about a 7-year gap between the time Yasmine died and 2552. She's spent that time being an AI - where's the gap?
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Anton P. Nym
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lonespartan wrote:
Daddy wrote:
It's possible Melissa made a copy of herself (or at least an un-infected sub-routine in her programming) for some task she felt she had to complete.


Please correct me if I am wrong,

Okay. Smile

Quote:
but in FS Cortana split herself multiple times when they boarded the Covenant ship. She ended up almost destroying herself in the process. [spec] This would point me to believe that Melissa/Durga/SP may be in the same situation and they are all "shorting out" due the the multiple splits. I mean whose to say that if they were all copies of each other that more copies exist and we just don't know about them yet. [/spec] Confused

It wasn't that Cortana was destroying herself, but that each generation of copy had more and more mistakes incorporated into its code. It's the photocopy effect; make enough copies of copies and eventually the result is unreadable. It was the copies that were dying/malfunctioning; the original Cortana was perfectly fine.

For folks who haven't read the novels or delved too deeply into backstory, it's a Covenant program (of unknown origin, though she scavanged it from a Covenant AI she "killed") that Cortana uses to copy herself; the UNSC does not have the ability to duplicate AI code.

-- Steve's hoping this will knock loose an idea or two for folks... since he's stumped.
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Phaedra
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Daddy wrote:
Phaedra wrote:

Durga, Melissa, and the Sleeping Princess all seem to me to be too incomplete, and too much a part of one original personality.

Melissa may bear the original name, but she is not the Melissa of the Apocalypso. Her personality back then seemed closer to Durga: reasonably well-adjusted, competent, self-examining, and sociable; Melissa as we know her is paranoid, antisocial, monofocused and not particularly adaptable. The Sleeping Princess seems to be elements of the personality that were repressed (probably by programming): the personality of the little girl from whom Melissa was made.


I believe Melissa's "crash" onto the ILB server in 2K4 and subsequent rebuild (courtesy of SPDR) is the main reason for her not seeming like the "Melissa of the Apocalypso". I'd be "paranoid, antisocial, monofocused" if I'd gone through what she has. Bang Head
Being influenced/controlled by the Flea doesn't help either.


Paranoid, yes. Antisocial (in the psychological sense, not in the "I don't feel like going to the party" sense) no, and monofocused, no.

If a human being went through what Melissa has, they'd probably end up with a whopping case of post-traumatic stress disorder. But she's not a human, even if she could arguably be displaying symptoms of PTSD. But even a human being probably woudn't become antisocial. Also, Melissa's a smart AI. She should be slightly more adaptable than she's proven. Perhaps that's attributable to the Flea, perhaps not. In any case, I think she's damaged and not a whole personality.

Quote:
This is why I believe Durga is a copy (or partial one) of Melissa while she was still onboard the Apocalypso, before the 'crash'.


This I agree with. Durga seems to be to be doing what we should expect from a functioning smart AI who randomly ends up in unfamiliar surroundings without knowing how they got there. She may be a little limited, maybe even a little damaged, but basically she seems fine. Ergo, I think she's more or less "whole."
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:06 pm
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Daddy
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Guido Jones wrote:

The ability for an AI to copy themselves was not standard - it was a utility that the convenant had in their database when Cortana took over the ship and killed the Covenant AI. It is possible that Melissa found the copy utility on the artifact and chose to copy herself as well, but I find it unlikely.


Exactly, it's not a standard capability of Smart AI's--it is a Covenant utility. The artifact may have had this utility, although I believe the artifact to be of Forerunner origin (from the description of it's casing along with it's powerful technology). But if it didn't, then where would a smart AI get the utility? This leads to my spec that Pious Flea is Covenant and got aboard the Apocalypso when Melissa intercepted a Covie transmission. Simple coding piggybacked on the message, seemingly harmless. And who fits the bill of a simple/basic AI in this drama?: Pious Flea. And this is where Melissa got the copy utility from--allowing her to create Durga.

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