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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: General » GAME: Virtucube
[Puzzle] 2. Green Face - reverse 52 & JA53 JA54
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AnthraX101
Entrenched

Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Posts: 797
zaeil wrote:

[SPEC]

I think that "JA53" and "JB54" are meant to be additional clues that the green face is to be solved by the Solitaire cipher (possibly in case one didn't solve the red face), as I originally posted here. Joker A in Solitaire has a value of 53--but this does not necessarily correspond to its starting position in the deck. Ditto for Joker B. The starting position of the jokers in the deck can make a huge difference in the generated keystream, as I've been discovering through trial and error with my way-too-slippery deck of cards. Smile I don't think that "reverse 52" refers specifically to the deck ordering, but rather might be a passkey, which is something I've been experimenting with (unsuccessfully at this point, but I still have a few things I'd like to try out before I give up on the idea!).


I'm not sure if this is what you ment or not, but both Joker A and Joker B have values of 53, Joker B is not 54.

AnthraX101
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:43 pm
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PotVsKtl
Greenhorn

Joined: 07 Nov 2004
Posts: 8

 		Sorry but aren't we trying to solve the red face in the green face thread here? Why was this moved?

PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 3:21 pm
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jzero
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Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 43
Location: Philadelphia, PA
AnthraX101 wrote:
I'm not sure if this is what you ment or not, but both Joker A and Joker B have values of 53, Joker B is not 54.


That's a good point; I had to go look that up. But while they both get a value of 53 for the purposes of generating ciphertext, they are discreet elements in the deck, so when stacking a deck, they need to be differentiated.

[SPEC]I'm thinking the JA53 and JB54 are just telling you what to "call" them when converting a deck of cards into numbers.
After re-reading the treatise on Solitaire, here is what I'm considering:
Start with the deck in reverse order. That is K-Spade to A-Spade, followed by hearts, diamonds, then clubs. I don't think it matters if you start with the jokers on the top or bottom.
Now key the deck using the passphrase which is either all or some portion of the phrase gleaned from the outer portion of the red face. I'm not sure if the last two letters should be the jokers or not.
Finally, decrypt as specified.[/SPEC]

I'm hoping to have time to try this this weekend either by hand or electronically.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 3:24 pm
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zaeil
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Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 233
Location: NC, US
AnthraX101 wrote:
zaeil wrote:

[SPEC]

I think that "JA53" and "JB54" are meant to be additional clues that the green face is to be solved by the Solitaire cipher (possibly in case one didn't solve the red face), as I originally posted here. Joker A in Solitaire has a value of 53--but this does not necessarily correspond to its starting position in the deck. Ditto for Joker B. The starting position of the jokers in the deck can make a huge difference in the generated keystream, as I've been discovering through trial and error with my way-too-slippery deck of cards. Smile I don't think that "reverse 52" refers specifically to the deck ordering, but rather might be a passkey, which is something I've been experimenting with (unsuccessfully at this point, but I still have a few things I'd like to try out before I give up on the idea!).


I'm not sure if this is what you ment or not, but both Joker A and Joker B have values of 53, Joker B is not 54.

AnthraX101


Nope, not what I meant. Your statement applies during keystream generation (though it doesn't matter if you give the jokers a value of peanut butter--they're only placemarkers in the deck). I suppose that what I meant was JA is card #53, and JB is card #54, but that this does not necessarily mean that they start at the bottom of the deck. Is that clear as mud or what? Very Happy

(edit: gotta learn to get my sayings right. XD)

PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:23 pm
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Varin
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Joined: 02 Dec 2002
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Location: South of where I used to be
PotVsKtl wrote:
Sorry but aren't we trying to solve the red face in the green face thread here? Why was this moved?


The green face is the face with the "reverse 52" and the "JA53 JA54". The red face is the face with the moon and the rotating text. It's going to be kind of confusing since the spec is that face 1 is needed to solve face 2 and face 2 is needed to solve face 3 and so on, but let's try to keep the discussion of each face to its own thread.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 5:28 pm
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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 		values of the joker, question about output card.
1. The jokers actually have two values in the Solitaire game.

Because it is essential to use the jokers as markers and to move them in proper order it is easiest to think of Joker A as the 53rd card of the deck and Joker B as the 54th card of the deck. Joker A always moves before Joker B.

But, when doing the "cut count"to find the "output" card, that is, determining by looking at the bottom card how many cards to count down from the top, either joker is 53. So if you see either joker as the bottom card in the cut, you must count down 53 cards to find the output card.

If you count down and run into a joker as an output card, you curse softly to yourself, avoid throwing the deck because you really don't want to start over again and just ignore that output and start over again at the first step. (moving the A joker one card down).



2. I do agree that the deck should be keyed at the beginning as:

Joker A reverse 52 (meaning 52----->1 which I take to mean King of spades through Ace of Spades, King of Hearts through Ace of Hearts, King of Diamonds through Ace of Diamonds, King of Clubs through Ace of Clubs) Joker B.

3. But here is a question: does the reverse 52 also apply to the way the "output card" is converted to a number? In the book, which doesn't reverse the deck, the output card is converted to a number (which becomes a letter). The number is determined by what suit the card is: (Ace through King) if a club is 1-13, a diamond 14-26, a heart is 1-13 and a spade is 14-26. Does revering the order of the 52 cards also reverse this? So that the spade is 1-13 , a heart is 14-26 , a diamond is 1-13 and the club is 14-26 ?

I didn't think of the role of the suits in the last step of generating the keystream until just now. I don't know if the "reverse 52" applies to this step as well. The normal order of the 52 cards is determined by bridge ordering (clubs, diamonds, hearts, spades) ---and the bridge ordering is also used to determine the number (which become a keystream letter) that the output card corresponds to, but if we reverse the deck do we reverse this step as well?

PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:51 pm
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jzero
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Joined: 04 Nov 2004
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 		Re: values of the joker, question about output card.
rose wrote:
...normal order of the 52 cards is determined by bridge ordering (clubs, diamonds, hearts, spades) ---and the bridge ordering is also used to determine the number (which become a keystream letter) that the output card corresponds to, but if we reverse the deck do we reverse this step as well?

Yikes. Hadn't thought of that!

My gut says that the bridge numbering is something of a standard when it comes to numbering a deck of cards from 1-52. Most of my CS class back in '99 pretty much independently came up with that ordering from minimal research. And there is a good chance it makes no difference, after all, if you were to reverse the deck AND reverse the "rank" of each suit, wouldn't you just end up with a deck numbered 1-52?

Nonetheless, these are challenging puzzles and it is a possibility worth considering that a deck numbered 52-1 may not be the first thing you expect to see when you translate it into cards.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 1:58 am
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rose
...and then Magic happens


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 		maybe not for decrypting. but for the keystream.
If the only use of the rank of the suits was to number the cards 1-->52, then I can't see that it would matter which order of suits you used, as long as both decks used the same order.

But, in this system the rank of the suit matters in determing the value to be given to the output card. Example: the output card is a five. What letter does that correspond to? In the book, if the output card is a club or a heart, the letter E would be used. If the output card is a diamond or a spade, the letter would be R. So at least for generating the keystream, the rank of the suits matters.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:11 am
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aznxasazn
Boot

Joined: 07 Nov 2004
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 		[spec]Well that's interesting. They removed the 1st time the question was answered at the end instead of the 2nd time. Perhaps the question is really a spacer for joker placement?[/spec]

In other news, they finally have their VQC Gear page working so you can order a shirt for $20 and get a clue if you want.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:24 pm
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Quirk
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Joined: 12 Nov 2004
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aznxasazn wrote:
In other news, they finally have their VQC Gear page working so you can order a shirt for $20 and get a clue if you want.


i don't want one of the shirts, but i'm willing to paypal someone some money towards the purchase.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 6:51 pm
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Ciaran_H
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Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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 		No luck with this, I assume? :/

PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:15 am
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Olorin
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Joined: 04 Nov 2004
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 		See http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8443&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
at the bottom of page 1, for the solution to this side.

F.O.R.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 3:44 pm
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Varin
I Have No Life


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
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Olorin wrote:
See http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8443&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
at the bottom of page 1, for the solution to this side.

F.O.R.


Since that thread has grown a bit, here's the post that has the solve....

aznxasazn wrote:
Ok, I solved face 2...

enaxor wrote:
Earlier this week, the two t-hirts I ordered arrived. Included was my second clue. If you look under the signature you will see (2wo) which I believe stands for puzzle/face 2. Have fun and "Happy New Year!"


What the clue means:
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
Si Stebbins is a deck ordering. http://members.aol.com/MagicDan/docs/si_stebbins.html tells you how to do it. Once you do what it says, you have to shift things around to where the AC is on top. Then put the JA53 and JB54 on top of it. Then perform solitaire and solve...


The translation of face 2:
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
WHAT HAPPENED AT TRACI'S?

-DALE OR EMILY SHOULD ONLY NEED EARTHLY MATERIAL AND NOTHING MORE

-ALICE KNOWS EMILY BROUGHT UNDER THE NORM

-ONLY TOM USUALLY SELLS ENOUGH (AND NEARLY OUTSELLS TRACI)

-HAVING ENOUGH, RICK MAKES ANOTHER NICELY, BUT UNDERSTANDABLY YELLS

-YELLING ENTICES TRACI'S GROUP INSIDE

-VIRTUALLY EVERYONE SEES A WAY AROUND YESTERDAYS ANNOYANCE (NOT DALE)

-AND NOW, OUR TIME HAS ESCAPED. REMEMBER, MANY ANSWERS NEVER USE SIMPLE
ENOUGH SOLUTIONS BUT UNDERSTAND THAT DALE (OR EMILY) SHOULD NEED ONLY TO KNOW NUMBERS.

OK WHERE IS TRACI?


What does the translation mean?
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
using the first letter of each of the words in the translated face: WHAT DOES ONE MAN MAKE BUT NOT USE ANOTHER MAN BUY YET GIVES AWAY AND ANOTHER MAN USES BUT DOES NOT KNOW IT?


So what is the final answer to fill in the blank for face 2?
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
A Coffin

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:19 pm
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cvk_0
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Joined: 07 Nov 2004
Posts: 25
Location: Canada, eh!

 		more to face two?
good job on the solve for the solitaire cipher.
but as aznxasazn pointed out in another thread we did not use the reverse 52 clue. I suspect that as with the first face there are several levels to the puzzle.
For the first face there was three levels of information hidden. the 'press kwb', solitaire is the key, and use si stebbins.
For face two you folks have found the first two levels: solve the cipher to get the riddle. and answer the riddle to acess face 6. but there is probably one more clue hidden in there to help out with face three.

I tried using every 52nd letter which gives 'YEHESHUO' -doesn't mean anything to me. the only good anagrams are: 'you he she', 'hey use oh', and 'house hey'.
Likewise for starting at the end and taking every 52nd letter in reverse
DNSSOSA again nothing. anagrams such as 'sons sad', and 'sans sod' etc

I still think reverse 52 is a clue as it also mentions 'should need only to know numbers" in the text.
any other suggestions?

PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:15 pm
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fretty
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Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 281
Location: South Yorkshire, England

 		The reverse 52 clue has already been solved.
Check this out

aznxasazn said:
Quote:
The only idea I can think of for "reverse 52" given what we now know is that it means "25" and the 25th card would be a queen. Thus, using the hint of "Keep yourself alive", "Queen", and GAGA it would seem we need to do something with Queen songs as alot of people have been suggesting.
[/url]

PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:08 pm
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