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 Forum index » Diversions » Console/Video Game Discussion
[Halo 2] ILB players get together on LIVE
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ThaJinx
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 		I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to borrow story ideas and homage another game, but I do think that there needs to be strong elements that make the game able to stand on its own. Now, it's fairly obvious that this is a fresh puppetmaster working the game, so I'm not at all going to say there are things that they should or shouldn't do; after all, I've never PM'd a game before either, so it's not like I can speak with authority or experience. But from my own personal position, I would prefer to make my first game its own story, and then worry about homaging or building on the stories of other games once I had the experience under my belt.

On the other hand, everybody has to have a place to start, and sometimes that place consists of running with your inspiration. Immitation is said to be the highest form of flattery, and if the team is able to go somewhere with this game then maybe they'll have the confidence to pursue something original to themselves.

That said, I don't have a strong position on this so much as one of vague curiosity. I'm not at a spot where I can really get into a game, so I'm going to have to maybe just check in once in a while on the progress. But you have to understand that I can't have a very strong opinion on this either way being that I've never been in the driver's seat; as it stands, I know that at the moment I'm not capable of pursuing puppetmastering with any skill. Far be it for me to give directions to someone as though I know the path when I've never walked it.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 7:31 pm
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DreamOfTheRood
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Gestas wrote:
EDIT: As to the quality of the game - it is almost certainly a homegrown ARG, and someone's first go at it. Don't be too discouraging, please. Many a writer and artist started out by copying great ideas around them - it's a safe way to explore your artistic bent within an already well-realised world. I say just let it play out, don't get angry or negative about it - it can be very hard for people to try things like this and it should always be encouraged!
(Of course, if this is a large-scale ARG... I dunno what to think Wink)


Your ideas are wise, Gestas-san.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 7:32 pm
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Clayfoot
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 		Who formally holds the copyright on the ILB content? Is there a formal copyright statement somewhere? Since it was an ARG, they couldn't very well post the copyright on ilovebees.com. Maybe the rights to use the material are already liberal enough to allow use in another ARG.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 7:58 pm
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Ranger D
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Gestas wrote:
EDIT: As to the quality of the game - it is almost certainly a homegrown ARG, and someone's first go at it. Don't be too discouraging, please. Many a writer and artist started out by copying great ideas around them - it's a safe way to explore your artistic bent within an already well-realised world. I say just let it play out, don't get angry or negative about it - it can be very hard for people to try things like this and it should always be encouraged!
(Of course, if this is a large-scale ARG... I dunno what to think Wink)


You make an exellent point. Let's take the Sarah Kiddo ARG that happened recently as an example. While it didn't get completed because it was being run by a single 17 yr/old high school student with enormous time constraints, it had an original storyline from the beginning. Yes, the main character claimed to be related to Dana and Aunt Margaret, but those elements were there more as easter eggs than actual story elements. Take those away and what do we have? A pretty solid murder mystery ARG.

Let's do the same with Lenny. Take away all the ILB references and what do we have? As I've stated before, not much yet. Yes, it is still somewhat early in this game (I hope).

Do you see the difference?

Yes, I've never PM'd an ARG so I don't have that much clout to say what or what not to do. But we've been spoiled in a sense. ILB was the first ARG I ever played and it set the bar pretty damn high. So unfortunately everything that comes after will be measure to that level. Especially if this game makes multiple blatant references to ILB.

EDIT - Thanks for getting this ball rolling Phaedra. This really helped me flesh out my thoughts on this game.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:02 pm
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Phaedra
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Clayfoot wrote:
Who formally holds the copyright on the ILB content?


Microsoft.

Quote:
Maybe the rights to use the material are already liberal enough to allow use in another ARG.


Doubt it. We're talking about Microsoft here.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:07 pm
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Fenwicked
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 		Well, as has been said before, I don't think it's really copyright infringement as long as it's non-profit. Otherwise there would be no fan fiction ever. And Microsoft would monitor all of our conversations all the time (if they aren't already) and fine anyone who mentions any of their IP.

And I haven't checked it out yet, although I'm about to. But it sounds like fan-fic-ARG, if anything. And fan works never live up to the original. So nothing to be upset about, really. More of an homage than malicious idea-theft.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:22 pm
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Phaedra
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Fenwicked wrote:
Well, as has been said before, I don't think it's really copyright infringement as long as it's non-profit. Otherwise there would be no fan fiction ever. And Microsoft would monitor all of our conversations all the time (if they aren't already) and fine anyone who mentions any of their IP.


It's still copyright infringement if it's published. Which this is. Most companies look the other way regarding fanfic because it doesn't pose a threat to the work upon which it's based -- most fanfic is based on novels, movies or TV shows. It operates in a different medium and causes no confusion.

But this IS operating in the same medium.

It's not copyright infringement if you're talking about it. Microsoft can't sue you for talking about ILB.

But the moment they start actually using ILB's characters in their game...
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:36 pm
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Clayfoot
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Phaedra wrote:
It's still copyright infringement if it's published. Which this is. Most companies look the other way regarding fanfic because it doesn't pose a threat to the work upon which it's based -- most fanfic is based on novels, movies or TV shows. It operates in a different medium and causes no confusion.

But this IS operating in the same medium.

It's not copyright infringement if you're talking about it. Microsoft can't sue you for talking about ILB.

But the moment they start actually using ILB's characters in their game...
Right. And copyright holders have even be known to pursue fan sites for producing (second rate) content that diminished the marketability of the original. Still, is there some precedent for pursuing those who violate the copyright on a marketing campaign? Since the content producers charged nothing for the material from the beginning, and since there are no apparent plans to continue the story, what harm could a copyright violater actually do? Would it even be worthwhile for Microsoft to pursue copyright violations against a work that they never intend to use (advertise or sell outright) again? Looking at it another way: If the copyright for "I Love Bees" was for sale, how much would it be worth?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:04 pm
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vector
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Joined: 28 Aug 2004
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 		I dont think that copyrights are something we need to worry about. If it does infringe then the lawyers will attack. If not, they wont. I preffer to leave this to the lawyers and the playing of the games to the gammers.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:34 pm
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angelo
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vector wrote:
I dont think that copyrights are something we need to worry about. If it does infringe then the lawyers will attack. If not, they wont. I preffer to leave this to the lawyers and the playing of the games to the gammers.


True that yo.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:50 pm
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vortech
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Gestas wrote:
As for any potential copyright issues - you know ideas aren't copyrightable, just particular expressions of ideas. So, a million people could start ARGs tommorrow that involved time-travelling AIs and there would be no legal ramifications...
However, I agree that if there was a "substantial" infringement of the original copyrighted material, then there might be an actionable case. But, this would be purely up to the discretion of whatever court the case finds itself in. Substantial in this case would go way beyond anything this ARG has done, or will do.


(© scholar's rant incoming. just skip merrily along if this does not interest you)

I'm not any beekeeper's lawyer and I'm not giving legal advice. You may think it sounds like legal advice, but you would be a fool and a communist to think so.

That said, your conclusion does not actually follow from the idea/expression dichotomy. The essential question is 1. how defined the characters were in the source material (pretty well defined, but without visual description. in this case, since they are both using non-visual media that deficiency is not relevant.) and 2. how much of that definition is scene-au-fair (generic or customary for the genre) and 3. how much of the protected definition is appropriated. see um, some hollywood case involving german zeppelins whose name escapes me at the moment. Or don't. I'm not your father.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the discretion of the court, but since it is a constitutional issue with established federal precedent there is not that much leeway as to the claim.

Clayfoot wrote:
Right. And copyright holders have even be known to pursue fan sites for producing (second rate) content that diminished the marketability of the original. Still, is there some precedent for pursuing those who violate the copyright on a marketing campaign? Since the content producers charged nothing for the material from the beginning, and since there are no apparent plans to continue the story, what harm could a copyright violater actually do? Would it even be worthwhile for Microsoft to pursue copyright violations against a work that they never intend to use (advertise or sell outright) again? Looking at it another way: If the copyright for "I Love Bees" was for sale, how much would it be worth?
The market value of the work is entirely unrelated to the level of protection it is given. The infringement is harm in itself and the copyright holder need not show actual harm to support infringement. Once infringement is proven, the infringer can take their chances on the fair use wheel of unpredictability.

Phaedra wrote:
Fenwicked wrote:
Well, as has been said before, I don't think it's really copyright infringement as long as it's non-profit. Otherwise there would be no fan fiction ever. And Microsoft would monitor all of our conversations all the time (if they aren't already) and fine anyone who mentions any of their IP.


It's still copyright infringement if it's published. Which this is. Most companies look the other way regarding fanfic because it doesn't pose a threat to the work upon which it's based -- most fanfic is based on novels, movies or TV shows. It operates in a different medium and causes no confusion.

Technically the line is not publication, but fixation in a tangible medium of expression. So even if you infringe privately it is still legally infringement, though not pragmatically dangerous.

Confusion is not relevant for infringement, confusion is a test for ™.

Not to toot my own horn, or bore anyone further, but fanfic, trademark, copyright, and derivative uses are all big themes in my latest article.

And I should point out that this thread is the first knowledge I have of the new ARG, so any of my assumptions of facts may be way off.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 11:54 pm
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SuperJerms
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Clayfoot wrote:
Phaedra wrote:
It's still copyright infringement if it's published. Which this is. Most companies look the other way regarding fanfic because it doesn't pose a threat to the work upon which it's based -- most fanfic is based on novels, movies or TV shows. It operates in a different medium and causes no confusion.

But this IS operating in the same medium.

It's not copyright infringement if you're talking about it. Microsoft can't sue you for talking about ILB.

But the moment they start actually using ILB's characters in their game...
Right. And copyright holders have even be known to pursue fan sites for producing (second rate) content that diminished the marketability of the original. Still, is there some precedent for pursuing those who violate the copyright on a marketing campaign? Since the content producers charged nothing for the material from the beginning, and since there are no apparent plans to continue the story, what harm could a copyright violater actually do? Would it even be worthwhile for Microsoft to pursue copyright violations against a work that they never intend to use (advertise or sell outright) again? Looking at it another way: If the copyright for "I Love Bees" was for sale, how much would it be worth?


Well, there is a fair use clause in copyright law, and this would (for now) be covered by the clause because it's noncompetitive (fiscally) and non-harmful to the original intellectual property.

That doesn't keep people from using scare tactics (hollow threats of lawsuit, or even frivilous lawsuit to get the offending party to comply), and MS could certainly do this. It would be a bad, bad PR move and would just reinforce the all-too-prevalent view of MS as an evil monopolistic corporation. Besides, I really don't think that Chuck (or anyone thinking like him) would do this. Talking to Chuck, I really got the impression that MS would see this sort of fan-fic as a sign of the ARG's success as a viral marketing campaign.


That said, me no likey. Me no likey at all. I have an emotional bond to the ILB story, so I'm not too keen on someone coming along and writing a crappy fanfic. I'm not too keen on someone just saying, "this is a ILB spin-off" instead of actually taking the time to write a good story and a compelling game. Spin-offs are fine, and non-sanctioned sequels are okay too. Really, I am ok with crappy fan-fic's too, for the same reason that Gestas said. Still, I shouldn't be expected to have a naturally positive emotional reaction to Lenny. Until I actually see some innovation, good writing, or anything compelling, I am just viewing this as laziness.

'Course, I have better things to do than mope about someone who I think has done something stupid. We'll just leave that to the goths.
(no offense meant to any goths. although, you do have to admit that you are dirty, dirty people)
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 11:59 pm
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SuperJerms
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 		screw it. here's a linky to fair use. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:01 am
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DreamOfTheRood
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 		I must apologize for my desultory play tonight. Up until the last game, I might as well have been playing for the other team ... every single game.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:53 am
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Gestas
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 		vortech - Thanks for taking the time to reply (I'll read your paper after this... Scouts honour (not that I've ever been a Scout)) Smile

vortech wrote:
That said, your conclusion does not actually follow from the idea/expression dichotomy. The essential question is 1. how defined the characters were in the source material (pretty well defined, but without visual description. in this case, since they are both using non-visual media that deficiency is not relevant.) and 2. how much of that definition is scene-au-fair (generic or customary for the genre) and 3. how much of the protected definition is appropriated. see um, some hollywood case involving german zeppelins whose name escapes me at the moment. Or don't. I'm not your father.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the discretion of the court, but since it is a constitutional issue with established federal precedent there is not that much leeway as to the claim.

Thanks for the technical clarification.

All I meant by the "discretion of the court" comment was that individual judges will have their own biases as to what is considered fair use, whether infringement requires action and what actions would be taken.
Of course, it is obvious that IANAL. Very Happy
Mind you, I admit to bias here - I'm very much of the opinion that a world where John Cage can force an out-of-court settlement on someone for infringing on the "sound of silence" is a world where copyright laws need to be re-written!

EDIT: Many apologies to DreamOfTheRood who is trying to get this thread back on-topic. I suggest if anyone wants to continue this, we start a thread in Meta? (Personally, I'm done Wink)
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:05 am
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