Return to Unfiction unforum
 a.r.g.b.b 
FAQ FAQ   Search Search 
 
Welcome!
New users, PLEASE read these forum guidelines. New posters, SEARCH before posting and read these rules before posting your killer new campaign. New players may also wish to peruse the ARG Player Tutorial.

All users must abide by the Terms of Service.
Website Restoration Project
This archiving project is a collaboration between Unfiction and Sean Stacey (SpaceBass), Brian Enigma (BrianEnigma), and Laura E. Hall (lehall) with
the Center for Immersive Arts.
Announcements
This is a static snapshot of the
Unfiction forums, as of
July 23, 2017.
This site is intended as an archive to chronicle the history of Alternate Reality Games.
  

The time now is Wed Nov 13, 2024 12:48 am
All times are UTC - 4 (DST in action)		 View posts in this forum since last visit
View unanswered posts in this forum
Calendar
 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
What constitutes an ARG?
Moderators: imbri, ndemeter
View previous topicView next topic
Page 1 of 4 [52 Posts]   Goto page: 1, 2, 3, 4 Next
Author Message
Elijah Snow
Veteran

Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 133
Location: Cin Sity

 		What constitutes an ARG?
I was reading an old thread about RedKore and came across this quote

Quote:
Whatever this "interactive art experience" turns out to be, it does not seem to be a game with puzzles to solve, not in the sense that there is a puzzle master with THE answer key. Technically, it is not an ARG, and does not deserve the amount of bandwidth it takes up here.


Which raises the question, what exactly makes an experience an ARG? I'm not looking for any right or wrong answer...just opinions. I'm bound to believe that there has to be more to it than just "puzzles to solve".

Thoughts?
_________________
"I know the pieces fit...because I watched them fall away"

PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 3:45 pm
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
Elijah Snow
Veteran

Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 133
Location: Cin Sity

 		I'd like to throw out some other candidates for "ARG classification" just to see what others think...

The service provided in the movie The Game w/Micheal Douglas

Participating in an experience like the players of the now defunct reality show Murder in Small Town X

Any murder mystery dinner theater performances

Any video game with puzzles to solve (i.e. The 7th Guest, Myst, Riven, etc.)

In each of these there is a preconcieved script with puzzles to solve (whether its cryptology or finding out who dunnit).

So if what I've heard is true, all of these would classify as an ARG...No? Very Happy

Thoughts?
_________________
"I know the pieces fit...because I watched them fall away"

PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 10:36 am
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
konamouse
Official uF Dietitian


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 8010
Location: My own alternate reality
Quote:
Participating in an experience like the players of the now defunct reality show Murder in Small Town X

Any murder mystery dinner theater performances


I'll second those choices as ARG.

Wish they would do the Small Town X premise again, but there is such a sad story associated with this show that it might bring back bad memories (the death of the show's winner in the World Trade Towers - he was one of the firemen who responded to the 9/11 disaster).
_________________
'squeek'
r u a Sammeeeee? I am Forever!

PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 11:41 am
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
catherwood
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee

Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 4109
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Elijah Snow wrote:
Any video game with puzzles to solve (i.e. The 7th Guest, Myst, Riven, etc.)


This one doesn't feel ARGish to me. I still hold to the more strict definition which implies that an ARG invades *your* reality. While I might not personally want phone calls from characters, it's the possibility which makes it more than a video game.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 12:19 pm
 View user's profile AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
 Back to top 
bill
Unfettered


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 614
Location: Tampa

 		Also, a packaged video game is constrained by what is in the box.

An ARG is played out in the wild so to speak. The outcomes, although probably heavily biased, are not completely predetermined and could be adjusted on the fly to enhance the player experience.
_________________
Bill
http://deaddrop.us/
Dedicated to Alternate Reality Gaming

PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 12:50 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
 Back to top 
luxandpoe
Boot


Joined: 25 Mar 2003
Posts: 37
Location: Silicon Valley, CA

 		ARG
Quote:
An ARG is played out in the wild so to speak.


I like that.

ARGs are "Feral or Wild" games.

Onee could then refer to "packaged" games as "domesticated games". Very Happy

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2003 10:57 am
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
Elijah Snow
Veteran

Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 133
Location: Cin Sity

 		Are puzzles necessary for an experience to be an ARG, or would an attempt to alter your reality in the "real world" suffice?

Just as an aside...I'd love to hear from both players and game creators (hint, hint). If you would prefer not to share your viewpoint in the "open" forum, just drop me a P(rivate) M(essage) and let me know how to contact you. Thanks. Very Happy
_________________
"I know the pieces fit...because I watched them fall away"

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 7:41 am
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
Guest
Guest


 		Let's throw a little fuel on the fire...

From the handful of ARG's that I've followed/participated in, I've noticed that there are two groups that form as the experience plays out. One group is a very hard core group who thrive on puzzles (in fact I'd state that the NSA should mine this site for future agents), the other focuses more on character interaction, research, and story. Now, this is an oversimplification of player groups, but generally I think it holds.

Through some of the responses in this thread, I've heard that puzzles alone don't make an experience an ARG, there needs to be an interactive element. I argue, however, that an interactive experience with no puzzles whatsoever, can still be an ARG.

Does anyone want to refute my argument? Very Happy

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 7:25 pm
 Back to top 
bill
Unfettered


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 614
Location: Tampa
Anonymous wrote:
Through some of the responses in this thread, I've heard that puzzles alone don't make an experience an ARG, there needs to be an interactive element. I argue, however, that an interactive experience with no puzzles whatsoever, can still be an ARG.

Does anyone want to refute my argument? Very Happy


/me raises his hand

Before you make such a blanket statement, consider that puzzles come in many forms. Social engineering a situation or performing other real world tasks that require legwork or mental activity really fall into the category of puzzles without coming across as such. What most people consider puzzles aren't really necessary for a game to constitute an A.R.G. provided you have some form of problem solving. The problem solving aspect is what I consider the essence of the puzzle leg in the tripod.

By removing puzzles altogether, you end up mostly as a spectator. Without the need to involve yourself in the story, you really are just engaging in a passive fictional experience.

On the other hand, taking on a persona to interact with characters really defines role playing games more than it defines A.R.G. If the extent of the immersion is communicating with characters, you truly aren't being immersed.

My view of the tripod or ARG (or immersive gaming if you prefer) includes plot, puzzles, and participation. I call them the 3 P's of ARG.
_________________
Bill
http://deaddrop.us/
Dedicated to Alternate Reality Gaming

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 9:28 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
 Back to top 
dmax
Unfictologist

Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1387
Location: Location: Location!

 		A? R? G?
i have no idea why, but I'm suddenly thinking of Kysa Braswell. Anyone here ever involved in that hoax?

An apparently very intelligent guy (Zaine Ridling, PhD) created Kysa: a deaf, buxom, ultimately doomed young lady who loved exploration, her friend Leslie, and large...male body parts. She was frank about all this, and kept a diary. She apparently had a LOT of admirers, who wrote her letters and received her letters and some...adult...pictures.

She came to my attention when it was speculated that she was a hoax. I LOVE a good hoax, and this was a complex, extravagant one. I read through her diary, and wrote "her" telling her that her entry comparing her curling up in bed ("spooning") with a lover and then facing his eventual loss and her concluding, at the end of the well-written essay, that there is no spoon - well, I had to tell "her" that it was a good job of writing. I figured it might not really be a girl, and I made no pass. Really. It was a well written, emotional essay.

In return, I received a one time bolus of a thank you letter and pornographic pictures of her in a maid's uniform, caressing a broom.

O....K.... Rolling Eyes

Over the next months, she had adventures, developed a brain tumor, and ended up eventually dying on a picturesque cliff, leaving behind a poignant farewell note.

Those who worked backwards found a very well developed "alternate reality"(?) which terrifically involved a passel of real-world horny men looking to get involved in this deaf girl's life. Apparently, though, at the end, one of the ones who had tracked down the creator of the hoax had received a letter from Kysa saying "time to die." Now, the whole thing is gone and all that's left of what was a relatively large web site is simply a porn index site.

Alternate reality?
Game?

Anyway, I thought of that as I read through the posts above.
You can wake up now.

Or check out Zaine Ridling PhD on Google, or his main page, Access the Great Books. So...is he a real person....?
_________________
That sounds like something HITLER would say!

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:20 am
Last edited by dmax on Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
Guest
Guest


 		Re: A? R? G?
dmax wrote:
Or check out Zaine Ridling PhD on Google, or his main page, Access the Great Books. So...is he a real person....?


According to this...yes. (What evidence though I'm unsure):
http://www.ratatak.com/mod.php?mod=userpage&menu=1100&page_id=5

Email zaineSPLATanova.org

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 7:44 am
 Back to top 
Elijah Snow
Veteran

Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 133
Location: Cin Sity

 		Wow!

I really have to say that I'm impressed with all of the responses that have been shared to date. I hope that we can continue this discussion, in one form or another, for some time. I know I still have some "wrenches" to throw into the works so to speak...but one thing at a time.

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who's posted a reply, and if your sitting on the sidelines with an opinion...feel free to jump in.

Now on with the show... Very Happy
_________________
"I know the pieces fit...because I watched them fall away"

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:01 am
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
Elijah Snow
Veteran

Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 133
Location: Cin Sity

 		Imbri, you've stirred up some thoughts...

Quote:
I also don't think of murder mystery dinner theaters as ARG. Sure, there's the alternate reality, there is a bit of a whodunit puzzle, and there is some minor participation. However, it's a live experience that lasts a whole 2-4 hours while you nibble on cheap food and watch people act out a scenario. It is murder mystery dinner theater. Certainly there are elements of ARG in it, but it is not an ARG.


Murder mystery dinner theater. Let's remove the "dinner". Murder mystery theater. Now the assumption has always been that in order to enjoy "the theater" the audience must travel to a location where the stage is "fixed". What if instead the theater came to you, and the stage was organic? Imagine a "character" shows up on your doorstep with a frantic look in her eye. She hands you a package and says, "Whatever you do, don't let them get this!". Just as quickly she arrived, she gone and suddenly you've been enrolled in a well crafted "play". It could last for 2 weeks or six months. Either way you are engaged in an experience that blurs the lines of reality and fantasy with an overall plot that focuses on some conflict resolution. Would this constitute an ARG?

This also challenges the idea that ARG's must take place on the Internet. In most ARG's to date, the participant still has to travel (whether physically or virtually) to a location where the stage is fixed (within the net). I have to admit that the Internet is a powerful tool that can be used to enhance the experiences provided, I just believe that there are opportunities out there to push out of this mold.

Quote:
Yes, the players do influence things and sideplots can be changed and even created on the fly (as we did w/LJ) based on player reactions. Yet the mainplot is set in stone. There are milestones that must be achieved and the PMs will see that they get achieved. If players do something absolutely contradictory, the PMs do not have to acknowledge it or can brush it off in whatever manner they choose. This illusion is much greater than it is in performances such as mystery dinner theaters.


Imbri brings up a good point and actually makes reference back to a type of theater...Improv. Whether its a local improv group at college or Wayne Brady on "Who's Line" the illusion is that they make every thing up "on the spot". The reality is improv actors (the good ones anyway) work off of a skeletal plot that has several key milestones along the way. How they get from point A to B is up to them, but they still follow an overall "script". Even the "random" walks they take from milestone to milestone are probably a set of well rehersed modules that they pick and choose based upon the audience and the environment. Sorry to digress, I just thought I point out that ARG's take several pages out of the improv actor's book. Very Happy

Quote:
I also agree with Bill that puzzles are integral to ARGs. By puzzles I don't mean that they all have to be spelled out as such. It's not all about cryptography or ancient lute tablature. It's about using your brain to uncover things. A great puzzle may not appear like a puzzle at all. In fact, I think some of the strongest ARG puzzles are logic puzzles in which you have to figure things over time and some of the weakest are decode the funky page and get the password.


Agreed. Very Happy

Quote:
As for 'plot people' and 'puzzle people', of course they both exist. I actually claim that there are three types of people; those involved in the story, those enamored by puzzles, and those that desire both. I also believe that a good ARG caters to all three types. There should be a great story that people can follow along with and speculate upon. There should be puzzles that can stand on their own and these puzzles should be of varied difficulty. Finally there should be puzzles that are a complete part of the plot, logic or lateral puzzles that require a knowledge of the story in order to solve.


I think there are definitely more "player segments" than just the two I called out...in fact I think there are probably five or more. I personally believe that richer more engaging experiences will be created when we understand what these groups are and what their make ups are. You had mentioned that a good ARG appeals to all people. I'd challenge that and say that a good ARG caters extremely well to a subgroup of the ARG population, not the average. I'm willing to be some people "sacrifice" quite a bit to participate in the games as they are today (but more on that later). Wink

Quote:
I almost added "and it's not live". Yet, I'm not sure if that should be a defined characteristic of ARG. What I mean by that is, I can sign up with Online Caroline now and go through the exact same sequence as I did when I first found it months ago, which was months after the first people experienced friendship with her. Is it possible to do something similar with ARG? I suppose that it could be done. I've pondered that idea a number of times. I've even come up with several ways to make it possible utilizing cookies, changing passwords, and special 'keys'. I believe that such things could help new players get caught up and play on their own schedule, without facing changing websites and such. However, my biggest problem is that it's not reality then. By taking such actions, the gamespace is defined and defined individually for each player. It moves from ARG to computer game. Can it be done? Should it be done? Would it destroy an essence of ARG?


I think this is one of the biggest barriers to gaining new entrants in an on-going game. I think this phenomenon plays out in player participation over time. For example, think back to the beginning of CTW. How many people were initially signed up to play? 100, 500, 1000? If you think of CTW as "a product" we would expect to see an actual increase in the number of players over time. Now jump to today. How many people on unforum actually participate in the CTW experience 10, 15, 20? It would appear that there is an actual decline in the number of "true" participants as time goes on. Now I know that there other forums and players who choose to go solo, but I think overall the trend still holds. In fact I'd guess that 80 to 90% of "participants" are sitting passively on the sidelines watching a small number of "ARG celebrities" play out the game. How many times have you heard, "I lurked on The Beast" or "Long time watcher, first time player"? I would challenge current and future game designer to figure out ways to get more people "off the sidelines" and into the game. There are currently barriers there that are preventing this from happening today. The sooner we can break these barriers down, the sooner more people can get the most out of ARG's today.

Sorry this entire post is turning more into a rambling instead of a concrete thought.

Imbri, I hope you don't take offense in me calling out some of your points. I just think there damn good ones! Smile

Are ARG's too long? Can they be serialized to allow players to jump in every two months instead of waiting a game out? I think someone out there might have the answer, but it's not me.
_________________
"I know the pieces fit...because I watched them fall away"

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 12:58 pm
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
Varin
I Have No Life


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 2456
Location: South of where I used to be
Quote:
I almost added "and it's not live" Yet, I'm not sure if that should be a defined characteristic of ARG. <snip> Can it be done? Should it be done? Would it destroy an essence of ARG?


So is it possible to make an ARG "not live", that is have late-joining players go through the same steps and puzzles as everyone else?

I don't know. I know Majestic tried that, but would you classify that as an ARG or a computer game? You immersed yourself into the alternate reality of the game like ARGs. Majestic really didn't have the sharing community that other ARGs have. There weren't a group of people figuring out puzzles. You sort of figured them out yourselves and if you got lost one of the characters would nudge you in the right direction. The game made it seem like you were the only "one" that could help the characters out so it was made for any player to buy the game and start at the beginning. Majestic was what is was also. You couldn't really change the plot much. It sometimes made it seem as if you were changing it when you "screwed up", but it was in reality already scripted that way. The plot was already set in stone.

So could other ARGs be "not live"? I think for one it would depend on the plot. I think it would be silly in CTW if anyone could travel to the location of the disc and find it still hidden there after someone else already found one. That would ruin part of the story and the immersion into the alternate reality.

I think that a "not live" ARG would have to have no unique items (the disc in CTW), no collaborative community and little ability for the players to change the plot of the game - and those are some of the best parts of an ARG, IMHO.

Or perhaps I'm thinking to narrowly and limited my idea of an ARG to what already exists. Maybe there is some way to create the perfect plot that would allow each player to advance through on their own and still be immersed with the rest of the community.
_________________
"I still miss him to this day and probably always will." - Todd Keeler, Chasing the Wish

"meta meta meta, I made you out of play..." ~ j5

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:00 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
Varin
I Have No Life


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 2456
Location: South of where I used to be
Quote:
Are ARG's too long? Can they be serialized to allow players to jump in every two months instead of waiting a game out? I think someone out there might have the answer, but it's not me.


That would be interesting. Imagine if after we help Dale in CTW, we move on to some other schmuck who fell for the "I'll grant you one wish" scenario in some other Smalltown, USA. CTW2 anyone? I guess that depends on the CTW endgame. Wink
_________________
"I still miss him to this day and probably always will." - Todd Keeler, Chasing the Wish

"meta meta meta, I made you out of play..." ~ j5

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:04 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
Display posts from previous:   Sort by:   
Page 1 of 4 [52 Posts]   Goto page: 1, 2, 3, 4 Next
View previous topicView next topic
 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
You cannot post calendar events in this forum



Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group