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Xbox 360
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Fenwicked
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Joined: 15 Oct 2004
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Location: Phoenix, AZ

 		This cell technology is fascinating and exciting stuff. I just hope the people working on it have read Michael Crichton's Prey. Wink
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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 10:40 pm
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ubersaurus
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Quote:

Really, I could do without most of the cream of PS2's crop...Max Payne, SOCOM, Metal Gear Solid...each made me want to gouge my eyes out (seriously, the Max Payne nightmare levels have to be the worst moment in any game I've ever played in 20 years). Madden, FFX, rez, ico, GTA and now God of War...these were well received, but very niche. Really, FFX and rez were the only ones I could sink my teeth into, and rez takes all of 20 minutes to play through entirely. Aside from that, I don't really want to play a game where I beat hookers to death or have sex with concubines.



I bought a PS2 for 3 games: Rez, R-Type Final, and Space Channel 5 part 2. There's plenty of other great games that most people don't think of offhand-Gradius V, Sega Classics, Castle Shikigami 2, Mr. Mosquito, Adventures of Cookie & Cream, Suikoden 3 & 4, Shinobi...check out some of those, you may find em good. R-Type Final in particular I sank massive hours into, amazing for being just a simple little 2d shooter that you can beat in a half hour.

Nintendo knows how to use their franchises effectively, and has continued to do so for years...the main reason the N64 was as successful as it was, was due to Zelda, Mario, and Bond. The fact they are finally embracing online play can be nothing but good.
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 2:46 am
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water10
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Joined: 31 Aug 2004
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Location: EvadeEvadeEvade
Quote:
The nitty-gritty tech specs on Sony's Cell. Here's why the cell is (potentially) big.
- This thing is hella powerful. The article I referenced said that cell performance on an optimized task would be equal to five dual-core AMD Opteron servers together. That's one cell (PS3 will have four of these).

I agree it has potential. I don't believe it'll be as powerfull as they say it is. But if it's 1/2 of that it'll still be awesome! I'll wait for real world results. I think MS and Intel have so much control over the PC world, that it won't be easy to take over like that. We'll see.

Quote:
- Distributed computing. This is the big deal. Cells are made to communicate and automatically share the workload with any cells that are found nearby. As I understand it, this can be done wirelessly. This means that if you have a Sony Wega HDTV with Cell tech, the processor combines forces with the PS3. Imagine the implications of that if PC's used it. Instead of your computer becoming obsolete, buy a new Sony monitor and it starts running faster.

I don't buy this. The network speed, specially wireless, is way too slow to get any benefit! Everything in a computer exchanges info at VERY high speeds! We're talking CPU, memory, northbridge/southbridge talking at 500-1000Mhz on PC's! You can't just have distributed computing with processors exchanging information at the rate of wireless network! Unless they come up with some incredible wireless speeds, I don't think you'll see improvements. They could work on different tasks, but this is not the same as adding processing power for a single task. This is the main reason I don't believe most of what they're promising.

Quote:
- The emotion engine was too specialized to be useful in a non-PS environment. Cell chips are generalized. They will be ready for non-PS applications right out of the gate.

I was just using the emotion engine to make a case for Sony's hype department. They promised Toy Story like graphics on the PS2!! After this, I just wait for real world results from Sony, before listening to specs and promises ...

Quote:
Really, I could do without most of the cream of PS2's crop...Max Payne, SOCOM, Metal Gear Solid...each made me want to gouge my eyes out (seriously, the Max Payne nightmare levels have to be the worst moment in any game I've ever played in 20 years). Madden, FFX, rez, ico, GTA and now God of War...these were well received, but very niche. Really, FFX and rez were the only ones I could sink my teeth into, and rez takes all of 20 minutes to play through entirely. Aside from that, I don't really want to play a game where I beat hookers to death or have sex with concubines.

I think the real console sellers from Sony were GTA and Square RPG's. You have some real big franchises like MGS and SOCOM. But nothing would hurt Sony more than losing GTA time exclusivity and Square. I'm not even talking about quality or anything, just numbers. As far as I know, MS didn't address GTA/Square, so I still think MS won't be first next-gen.
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 10:04 am
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SuperJerms
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Quote:
As far as I know, MS didn't address GTA/Square, so I still think MS won't be first next-gen.


While I don't think MS bagged Square, they did get MistWalker, the guy behind the FF series. Aside from that, many more developers have signed on. A big difference from last generation, where Halo was just about the only reason to buy the box. Time will tell, but Sony really has some feirce competition this time.
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 10:46 am
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water10
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 		Just to add some more Cell info, from a site that I find pretty reliable, Anandtech:

Here's the whole article. It's VERY long and technical article, so I don't blame those that don't read the whole thing! Laughing

Some quotes from the final words they have about Cell:

Quote:
Cell's architecture is similar to the next version of Microsoft's Xbox and upcoming PC microprocessors in that it is heavily multithreaded. The next Xbox will execute between 3 and 6 threads simultaneously, while desktop PC microprocessors will execute between 2 - 4. [....] Cell's SPEs being Altivec/VMX derived is a benefit, which should mean that the ISA is more familiar to developers working on any POWER based architecture, but the approach to development on Cell vs. development on the PC will literally be on opposite ends of the spectrum, with the new Xbox somewhere in between.

The problem here is that big game development houses often develop and optimize for the least common denominator when it comes to hardware, and offer ports with minor improvements to other platforms. Given Cell's architecture, it hardly looks like a suitable "base" platform to develop for. We'd venture to say that a game developed for and ported from the PC or Xbox Next would be under-utilizing Cell's performance potential unless significant code re-write time was spent.

Since it won't be easy to port games from PS3 to PC/Xbox360 and vice-versa, third party support will be even more crucial! I can see small developers chosing a platform and sticking with it.

Quote:
As a potential contender in the PC market, Cell has a very tall ladder to climb before even remotely appearing on the AMD/Intel radars. The biggest strength that the x86 market has is backwards compatibility, which is the main thing that has kept alternative ISAs out of the PC business. Regardless of how much hype is drummed up around Cell, the processor is not immune to the same laws of other contenders in the x86 market - a compatible ISA is a must. [....]

Unfortunately, seeing a future for Cell far outside of Playstation 3 and Sony/Toshiba CE devices is difficult at best.

The first thing you have to keep in mind is that Cell's architecture is nothing revolutionary, it's been done before. TI's MVP 320C8X is a multi-processor DSP that sounds a lot like Cell: linky. So, while Cell is the best mass-market attempt at a design approach that has been tried before, it doesn't have history on its side for success beyond a limited number of applications.

Basically, they are saying Cell seems pretty promising, but not revolutionary. They hint that it'll succeed on the PS3, but have doubts about PC applications. Ah, they don't even mention distributed computing.
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 10:52 am
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water10
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Quote:
While I don't think MS bagged Square, they did get MistWalker, the guy behind the FF series. Aside from that, many more developers have signed on. A big difference from last generation, where Halo was just about the only reason to buy the box. Time will tell, but Sony really has some feirce competition this time.

Oh, no doubt MS seems to understand the importance of third party support! Casual gamers will dictate the market, just like now. A lot of people buy Playstation without ever considering an Xbox or GC, just because of name recognition and brand loyalty. Big franchises are a big part of this.

Games like FF and GTA sell tons of copies, regardless of quality! I'm not saying they are not good, just that they don't need to be good to sell! MS had success on creating an equal franchise in Halo. But didn't have same success with other games like Fable, Sudeki.
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 11:03 am
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ubersaurus
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Joined: 30 Oct 2004
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water10 wrote:
Just to add some more Cell info, from a site that I find pretty reliable, Anandtech:

Here's the whole article. It's VERY long and technical article, so I don't blame those that don't read the whole thing! Laughing

Some quotes from the final words they have about Cell:

Quote:
Cell's architecture is similar to the next version of Microsoft's Xbox and upcoming PC microprocessors in that it is heavily multithreaded. The next Xbox will execute between 3 and 6 threads simultaneously, while desktop PC microprocessors will execute between 2 - 4. [....] Cell's SPEs being Altivec/VMX derived is a benefit, which should mean that the ISA is more familiar to developers working on any POWER based architecture, but the approach to development on Cell vs. development on the PC will literally be on opposite ends of the spectrum, with the new Xbox somewhere in between.

The problem here is that big game development houses often develop and optimize for the least common denominator when it comes to hardware, and offer ports with minor improvements to other platforms. Given Cell's architecture, it hardly looks like a suitable "base" platform to develop for. We'd venture to say that a game developed for and ported from the PC or Xbox Next would be under-utilizing Cell's performance potential unless significant code re-write time was spent.

Since it won't be easy to port games from PS3 to PC/Xbox360 and vice-versa, third party support will be even more crucial! I can see small developers chosing a platform and sticking with it.

Quote:
As a potential contender in the PC market, Cell has a very tall ladder to climb before even remotely appearing on the AMD/Intel radars. The biggest strength that the x86 market has is backwards compatibility, which is the main thing that has kept alternative ISAs out of the PC business. Regardless of how much hype is drummed up around Cell, the processor is not immune to the same laws of other contenders in the x86 market - a compatible ISA is a must. [....]

Unfortunately, seeing a future for Cell far outside of Playstation 3 and Sony/Toshiba CE devices is difficult at best.

The first thing you have to keep in mind is that Cell's architecture is nothing revolutionary, it's been done before. TI's MVP 320C8X is a multi-processor DSP that sounds a lot like Cell: linky. So, while Cell is the best mass-market attempt at a design approach that has been tried before, it doesn't have history on its side for success beyond a limited number of applications.

Basically, they are saying Cell seems pretty promising, but not revolutionary. They hint that it'll succeed on the PS3, but have doubts about PC applications. Ah, they don't even mention distributed computing.



I daresay this will be the first generation since the NES/SMS/7800 days that all three systems have had some different architecture. Even the 16 bit era systems could do approximately the same games, but if what you say is true, the Xbox2, the PS3, and the Revolution will all be different. Hell, we don't even know what makes the revolution different other than the fact Nintendo's staff is saying they've got some serious changes compared to how other systems operate.
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 5:33 pm
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Grifter_7
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Joined: 19 Oct 2004
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Location: I could tell you, but I'd have to kill you.

 		You probably all thought I wasn't going to post anything about the Xbox360 today since it will be unveiled tonight... Well Grifter's coming through with some new pics...

Scans of the danish magazine 'Game Reactor' have been leaked on the internet exposing the Xbox360 (even more). It's once again a proof the earlier leaked images of the console, controller and logo were real. It also confirm the full specs (incl. the 20gb HD) leaked 2days ago.
Few more details tell us the doublelayer-DVD (DVD9) player will be 12x speed and it confirm the ourcolony mem card image that the default size will be 64MB.
Also don't forget to watch the Xbox360 unveiling show tonight at 9:30pm on MTV for our US visitors and 12:30am on CTV for our Canadian visitors. European countries will get the show tomorrow (13th) on their local MTV channel (see TV schedule), but it'll probably be all over the internet before that.

They are all to large to post, so you'll have to follow the links.

Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3
Pic 4
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 4:36 pm
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SuperJerms
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 		Holy crap. If those Ghost Recon 3 screens are really what games will look like standard...OMGWTFBBQ
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 5:14 pm
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weephun
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Joined: 25 Aug 2004
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 		Tivo is locked and loaded Wink
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 7:40 pm
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VMVash
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 		ok I can't see it on tv... I don't have it. So I need some one to post specs/vids/pic links so i can find out all i can.
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 8:57 pm
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Clayfoot
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VMVash wrote:
ok I can't see it on tv... I don't have it. So I need some one to post specs/vids/pic links so i can find out all i can.
Vash, I've got the PC PVR card warmed up to record this, with a 5 minute overlap on each end. Where in the world can I put it for you?
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 10:20 pm
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thunderclap8
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 		that was a very dirty trick... the halo music over the samsung HD commercial... I nearly crapped myself at the potential of the rumored Halo 2.5 reveal.
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 10:37 pm
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Clayfoot
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thunderclap8 wrote:
that was a very dirty trick... the halo music over the samsung HD commercial... I nearly crapped myself at the potential of the rumored Halo 2.5 reveal.
And they're playing it again. Try to hold it! Hold it!
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 10:39 pm
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Grifter_7
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thunderclap8 wrote:
that was a very dirty trick... the halo music over the samsung HD commercial... I nearly crapped myself at the potential of the rumored Halo 2.5 reveal.


Yeah they like to play that commerical... Twice so far... Got me both times...
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 10:39 pm
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