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 Forum index » Diversions » Console/Video Game Discussion
Xbox 360
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water10
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Quote:
I'm probably going to be picking up B:R, PD0 and ES:O as my first titles. Although I'm not familiar with Kameo.

I think Kameo is a Zelda kind of game. It looks pretty nice, but it's not really my cup of tea. I'll get PD0 for sure! Don't know if I'll get any other title though.

Quote:
I might end up picking it up anyway. I've always loved Gauntlet games, and the co-op over XBL is just too tempting. Especially if others of you guys pick it up as well.

Timing for this game is just awful ... Hype for 360 will be sky-high and I can see this game falling off the radar, which is a shame.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:34 am
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Grifter_7
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NVIDIA tech licensed for Xbox 360 backward compatibility
This news was already posted about 10days ago, but it has now also been confirmed.
From GamesIndustry.biz:
Quote:

Deal will allow Xbox 360 to run Xbox titles, but tinkering with software is still needed

Microsoft has signed a deal with NVIDIA to license the company's technology in order to enable backwards compatibility in the Xbox 360, which uses an ATI graphics chipset that isn't natively compatible with Xbox titles.

The question of how to get Xbox 360 - which uses a radically different architecture to the Xbox - to play Xbox titles has been a major problem for Microsoft, and it's rumoured that backwards compatibility wasn't actually part of the original specification of the console.

Indeed, it wasn't even confirmed that the system would be able to play Xbox games until E3 this year, when Microsoft announced that "best-selling" Xbox titles would work on the Xbox 360 - a curious piece of double-speak which the software giant refused to clarify fully.

Following the announcement, sources close to the company indicated that a form of recompilation (known as "transcompilation") would be required to make Xbox games work on the 360, with the resulting patched executables being shipped on the system's hard drive for certain popular games, and patched versions of other games gradually being added over the Xbox Live network.

Speaking to GamesIndustry.biz at the time, Microsoft Xbox PR manager Michael Wolf denied that games would need to be recompiled, and assured us that the company had no intention of charging for updates to the backward compatibility service. However, he refused to answer further questions about how the process will work.

Now a report on US website 1up confirms that Microsoft has in fact licensed parts of NVIDIA's technology from the Xbox to allow it to emulate the chipset in Xbox 360, a deal which will see Microsoft continuing to make payments to NVIDIA for several years.

The company apparently plans to emulate the Xbox' Intel CPU on the 360's multiple IBM PowerPC cores, and will now be able to emulate the NVIDIA chip to some extent on the ATI graphics chip in the 360 - but it would appear that many games will still not work without some modification.

Patches for some popular games - or "emulation profiles" - will ship on the Xbox hard drive, and those games will as a result work out of the box. Microsoft is expected to work to get emulation working for other games over time, and will distribute further emulation profiles over the Xbox Live service.

What's not clear is how users without Xbox Live access - around 90 per cent of users on the current generation Xbox, for reference - will be able to update those profiles, and whether Microsoft will ever get the full range of Xbox software working on the new console.

Wolf declined to answer the first of those questions when we put it to him last month, but was more positive on the second issue, telling us that "our goal is to make ALL Xbox games play on Xbox 360, and at launch we'll have a selection of the top selling that will be tested and confirmed to work."


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:39 am
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atdt1991
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May I be the first to suggest that once the 360 comes out, we attempt what I may call the "ironman tournament" or "where the hell is the grenade button?"

What I mean is that we should play Halo on the 360 using the DVD controller, which obviously corresponds to the controller itself. Only problem i see, perhaps, is only having one axis. *chuckle*

Then again, that'd be twice the fun! "look at me when I'm hitting you!"
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:13 pm
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INCyr
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atdt1991 wrote:
May I be the first to suggest that once the 360 comes out, we attempt what I may call the "ironman tournament" or "where the hell is the grenade button?"

What I mean is that we should play Halo on the 360 using the DVD controller, which obviously corresponds to the controller itself. Only problem i see, perhaps, is only having one axis. *chuckle*

Then again, that'd be twice the fun! "look at me when I'm hitting you!"


Totally SOOOO there.

That'd be the greatest game of Halo2 ever played. And by greatest, I mean worst. But it'd be damned funny.

Only.... how do you plug the headset into the DVD controller?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:10 pm
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water10
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A new article from Anandtech, comparing X360 and PS3.

It doesn't really say anything new, but it's a good article to read. It's interesting to see how MS took a more conservative path on the CPU side, with 3 PPC cores vs Cell design, but on the other hand, it's much more innovative on the GPU side, with the unified shader architecture vs a PC-esque Nvidia GPU.

But, if you look closely, it's clear that X360 is much more flexible! 3 general cores against 1PPE and 7 highly specialized SPEs, and 48 unified shaders that can go from pixel to vertex shaders vs conventional vertex/pixel shaders.

The big picture is that there's no clear winner on the hardware side. With the X360 coming before the PS3, MS couldn't be in a better position! It all depends on how successful Sony can market their console as being more powerful! Right now, I'd say they are doing a good job and the average consumer (that WILL be key to the console war!) does believe PS3 is a lot more powerful! And since it's coming later, people expect it to be more powerful, just like the Xbox was more powerful than the PS2. Let's see how people (and gaming sites) react when the PS3 gets released and they see games are very similar to the 360 games!

It's somewhat disappointing that first games on 360 will be mostly single-threaded. I think there'll be a bigger difference between the first wave of games and second/third gen games than on this current console generation, specially for the PS3.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:30 am
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water10
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Where are you, Grifter? Laughing Well, since he's not around, here's another link about PGR3 updates. It has a VERY impressive in-game screenshot! It's a chinese restaurant in NYC. Compare the photo of the real restaurant to the in-game screenshot! The amount of details is just amazing!!

And before people start to accuse Bizarre of pulling a Killzone, they confirmed on the forums that it's a real in-game screenshot! Here are some quotes from the devs:

Quote:
Just been reading around the Internet, and I think I need to clarify: That is real PGR3 geometry taken from the game. It's NOT just a photo of some buildings in NYC...

Ben

Quote:
OK, once and for all, that is an in game screenshot.

Alan

Quote:
Yup - I'm going to back this one up as well.

That is 100% an in-game shot. This is PGR3, and this is the bar we're setting.

Chris

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:17 pm
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atdt1991
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That probably depends on whether you can use the dvd remote and the controller at the same time. If so, plug the headset into the controller, but use the dvd remote.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:31 pm
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thunderclap8
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atdt1991 wrote:
May I be the first to suggest that once the 360 comes out, we attempt what I may call the "ironman tournament" or "where the hell is the grenade button?"

What I mean is that we should play Halo on the 360 using the DVD controller, which obviously corresponds to the controller itself. Only problem i see, perhaps, is only having one axis. *chuckle*

Then again, that'd be twice the fun! "look at me when I'm hitting you!"


A few years back some friends and I went through a phase on the PS1: playing Tekken 3 with only DDR pads. It was great fun, even though most matches turned into the real deal once we started pushing each other off the pads to gain a fighting advantage Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:58 pm
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water10
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Here's another impressive update from Bizarre! Another great looking NYC picture! It's almost photo-realistic ...
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:53 pm
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kaber
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With the announcement that Microsoft is partnering with Toshiba to develop HD DVD players, I was wondering if anyone knew if this would impact the 360? At E3, M$ said they were waiting to see which technology developed before determining what they would put in a future 360. It seems like they have made their decision and hopefully they will incorporate an HD DVD drive with original 360s. If so, another selling point for me to pony up with the $$$.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:30 pm
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water10
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New Anandtech article!

Pretty strong statements!! Some quotes:

Quote:
Right now, from what we've heard, the real-world performance of the Xenon CPU is about twice that of the 733MHz processor in the first Xbox. Considering that this CPU is supposed to power the Xbox 360 for the next 4 - 5 years, it's nothing short of disappointing. To put it in perspective, floating point multiplies are apparently 1/3 as fast on Xenon as on a Pentium 4.

The reason for the poor performance? The very narrow 2-issue in-order core also happens to be very deeply pipelined, apparently with a branch predictor that's not the best in the business. In the end, you get what you pay for, and with such a small core, it's no surprise that performance isn't anywhere near the Athlon 64 or Pentium 4 class.

The Cell processor doesn't get off the hook just because it only uses a single one of these horribly slow cores; the SPE array ends up being fairly useless in the majority of situations, making it little more than a waste of die space.


It seems MS and Sony dropped the ball on the cpu side! The whole triple core at whopping 3.2Ghz was good hype material, but it doesn't seem to have real performance!

Quote:
We of course asked the obvious question: would game developers rather have 3 slow general purpose cores, or one of those cores paired with an array of specialized SPEs? The response was unanimous, everyone we have spoken to would rather take the general purpose core approach.
[...]
For Sony, it doesn't take much to see that the Cell processor is eerily similar to the Emotion Engine in the PlayStation 2, at least conceptually. Sony clearly has an idea of what direction they would like to go in, and it doesn't happen to be one that's aligned with much of the rest of the industry.

Everytime I compared the emotion engine to the Cell processor, it was more based on marketing and hype! Guess it's more than that! Laughing It seems it'll be a lot harder to develop to the PS3!

Quote:
The real surprise was Microsoft; with the first Xbox, Microsoft listened very closely to the wants and desires of game developers. This time around, despite what has been said publicly, the Xbox 360's CPU architecture wasn't what game developers had asked for.
[...]
Regardless of the reasoning, not a single developer we've spoken to thinks that it was the right decision.

So, MS didn't follow the Xbox success formula and apparently, they are wasting a gold opportunity to win next-gen!


I was very surprised with this article! This is the first I read that pretty much says both companies are flat out lieing about their hardware performance! It's somewhat strange that only now anandtech is getting to this conclusion, specially after they have quite a lot of articles about next-gen. My guess is that performance is somewhere in between. Not as bad as anandtech is saying on this article, but certainly not even close to what MS and Sony are saying!

Oh, and I guess I have to say I was wrong when I assumed consoles would be ahead of high-end PC's! They might be ahead only on the graphics side!
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:46 pm
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ubersaurus
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I'm not particularly surprised by the performance lying-every company pulls that sort of thing.

Hilariously, this time around it looks like Nintendo is the one aiming to make the easy-to-develop for platform. Assuming the controller isn't too weird, that is.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:16 pm
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SuperJerms
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water10 wrote:
This is the first I read that pretty much says both companies are flat out lieing about their hardware performance!


No developer wants to have to reinvent their dev tools and approach, so it shouldn't be surprising to find devs who don't want to change to a more PowerPC-like approach. This doesn't mean either is making a mistake, necessarly. It just means that things are changing, and people are resisting change. That's not a new concept.

It's comparing apples and oranges. Beware of an article who says, "The supermarket lied about oranges being better...these things aren't red, don't crunch, and you can't eat the skin anymore!" Be skeptical of any article that downplays the power advantages in these new design directions by pointing out how poorly these chips will do at general-purpose computing. These aren't PCs, and it's foolish for any author to minimize the vector computing power of next-gen when so much of game processing is vectorizable. That's somewhat like criticizing a flying car because its land-based acceleration isn't as fast.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:31 pm
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Anton P. Nym
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SuperJerms wrote:
It's comparing apples and oranges. Beware of an article who says, "The supermarket lied about oranges being better...these things aren't red, don't crunch, and you can't eat the skin anymore!"

Laughing

-- Steve wants to immortalise that quote. It's just so true...
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:16 pm
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rufo
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SuperJerms wrote:
water10 wrote:
This is the first I read that pretty much says both companies are flat out lieing about their hardware performance!


No developer wants to have to reinvent their dev tools and approach, so it shouldn't be surprising to find devs who don't want to change to a more PowerPC-like approach. This doesn't mean either is making a mistake, necessarly. It just means that things are changing, and people are resisting change. That's not a new concept.


It really has nothing to do with the fact it's PowerPC based... if they were to put a 2Ghz G5 in there it would smoke a single core of the Xenon/Cell based chips. Most of the performance deficiencies are caused by a lack of halfway-decent branch prediction, not by the ISA of the chip. The G5's branch predictor is actually one of it's strongest points, but branch prediction is a huge amount of logic, and large amounts of logic cost large amounts of money, and nobody wants a $900 console.

This actually isn't news... during GDC there was a bit of talk about this (scroll or search for Chris Hecker), but nobody seemed to notice the first time around.

It's slightly disappointing; basically there's not going to be a revolution in gameplay, or AI, or physics anytime particularly soon on the consoles, although when/if programmers figure out the best way to code for these chips we may see good things down the line (this is a rather large roadblock though, so I'm not holding my breath that much). Really the main thing I seemed to hear from E3 was "better graphics!", and we certainly seem to be getting that in spades. I'll probably get an Xbox 360, not unlikely at launch, but I'm not expecting anything truly revolutionary for quite a while.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:30 am
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