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it's an alternate REALITY!
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strife777
Guest
Quote:
I know, you may not think you are belittling anyone by just voicing your opinion about these games, but I guarantee you that's how the creators and players of these games take it.


I hate to say it, but criticism is a part of life. If you don't want your work criticized, don't go public. Otherwise, grow thicker skin.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:46 am
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GuyP
Unfettered


Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 584
Location: London, UK

 		Personally, I find IM an annoying basis for ARGs. It does have the potential to be cool, but it's a little like ordering a Big Mac "but leave the bun, the hamburger, the gherkins and the cheese" - it's just a big splodge of Secret Sauce, and I don't want to eat that. It *really* tests my suspension of disbelief, too, which isn't my strong point. As much as I'm not playing a character, I am playing the role of an AlternateRealityGuy, the version of me that doesn't know it's all a game.

Not to get too personal, but it seems to me that:

* AIM can be (and has been) used convincingly but;
* right now, the games run on AIM also have the least experienced PM's
* accordingly, the quality of these gAIMes is somewhat dubious

Why might this be the case? The medium offers instant gratification (no lengthy preplan/design process) combined with no technical knowhow (anyone can do it) so it's ideal for the proto-PM. While I'm sure that someday we'll see a genuinely excellent / even gAIMe run by first timers, when I'm picking a game to play (and invest my time in) I need to hedge my bets and go with something I know is going to be well produced.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:28 am
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jamesi
Sentient Being


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 2195
Location: Canadia
strife777 wrote:
Quote:
I know, you may not think you are belittling anyone by just voicing your opinion about these games, but I guarantee you that's how the creators and players of these games take it.


I hate to say it, but criticism is a part of life. If you don't want your work criticized, don't go public. Otherwise, grow thicker skin.


Agreed. I'm sick of whiny complaints from people who mistake personal opinions for personal attacks. Suck it up already.

Hugh Briss wrote:
I don't think it's fine however to use opinions to try and exclude or belittle people's creative efforts by saying they are somehow less than true ARGs. I know, you may not think you are belittling anyone by just voicing your opinion about these games, but I guarantee you that's how the creators and players of these games take it. That may or not matter to you but I think it's worth considering when you think about how to voice your opinion.


I wonder if the fine folks at ARGTalk consider any of this when they write their articles. I seem to remember a review on their site that picked apart a game that hadn't even started.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:25 pm
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imbriModerator
Entrenched


Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland
HughBris wrote:
There's no denying that only using one or two tools in making anything, in this case a game, will limit the final result. As some people have pointed out in the discussion going on at the other site, by choosing to only use AIM or AIM with one web site for example, a Puppet Master automatically limits the scope and possibly the overall appeal of his game. But it could also be argued that the PMs of the Beast did the same thing by choosing to exclude AIM and many other forms of real time interaction. Why is nobody criticizing that decision and claiming it disqualifies the Beast from being an ARG? In the same way you could argue that the PMs of I Love Bees, by not including more web sites or other forms of interaction other than phone calls and e-mails, used an extremely limited set of tools in making their game. Does that disqualify it from being an ARG? Obviously, this does not seem to be a workable method or a criteria that stands up to extended scrutiny.


This argument does not hold any water with me. First of all, the Beast utilized a wide variety of interactive media from websites (with a variety of interaction types within the web environment) to phone calls to live events to emails. It was not just a couple of websites. Furthermore, most of the argument here, especially from my perspective, has been about the depth of the world avialable to explore and the Beast had that greater than just about any experience that I have seen. As for I Love Bees, they too utilized a variety of interactive methods and, while much of the content was distributed via audio, in order to recieve that audio players had to utilize a variety of media and collaboration. Perhaps the difference is not so much in the media type but in the media form. With AIM, it is very much a push method of delivery and with both the Beast and I Love Bees there has been a good give and take of push and pull delivery methods. Finally, we're back to my earlier point of implying that the only valid form of interaction is conversation. That is just not the case.

- b

PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:42 pm
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago

 		Which site was it that talked about Adrian's farts?

PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:42 pm
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Varin
I Have No Life


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 2456
Location: South of where I used to be

 		I know this may not be the thread, but since the thread seems to be rather freeflowing, I'll go for it.

Nightmare Tony wrote:
One solution I hope to see more of is the game characters posting and being a part of the forums. But thasts my own personal take there. <snip>

A defined ingame and out of game set of forums for each game. <snip>

Perhaps, for each game, an ingame forum where the game characters interact and post?


*For me* that ultimately breaks the illusion of the ARG. Thinking in ingame terms (the way I think of it)...

We have an ingame character, we'll call her Matilda. Matilda has lost her ferret and needs help finding it. Matilda, as a character, has no realization that we at Unfiction are playing a game. She thinks that we are really helping her out. She thinks that her ferret is real and that she really exists. We of course know otherwise, but if we're successfully immersed we don't act like she is a fictional character.

So, for Matilda to create an account at, for example, Unfiction - "alternate reality gaming" in order to talk to us seems quite odd and unbelievable. Why would she choose a gaming forum? Why not a ferret forum or a detective forum? If she were somehow led to UF, how does she ignore the fact that we think we're playing a game? How does she not read the other threads where we talk about the game, the whois info, the PM mistakes Razz, etc. Let's forget that behind the scenes she wouldn't be allowed to access those areas... I'm talking about immersion and character believability.

It makes much, much more sense to me to have an ingame forum. If the PM of the "Help Matilda Find the Ferret" ARG really want us to be able to comunicate with Matilda via forum posts then why shouldn't they create a forum? LostFerretLoves.com is surely available and forums are quite easy to set up (and I'm sure that there are plenty of people in the community who would be quite willing to help a PM who didn't know how to do so.)

Now before the "but that requires a big budget!" rebuttal starts, hosting and registering a domain name is pretty darn cheap. Even a 12 year old surviving on an allowance could probably do it. Wink Most hosting companies will have some type of forum software available for you to use for free. If there really is a problem with money to that extreme extent though, people here have offered free hosting to grassroots games. That leaves about an $8 expense to reserve the domain name. And there's always Immersion Unlimited available too, for those that prefer and those who can overlook the problems I have that I listed above.

Omnie wrote:
"Traditional" ARGs can be read, on some basic level, as a story. Newish gAIMes are played…like a game. By its very nature, the second sort does not encourage lurkers or players who don't want to or can't "play" the way the game expects you to.

Does the argument hold outside of my two examples?


Great observations Omnie. I have to admit, though, that term "traditional" sort of sits wrong with me. I've seen others use it alot lately, even when some of those others never played what they call a "traditional" ARG. ARGs aren't really all that traditional as a whole and are all so individually different, how can they be tested to see if they are traditional or not? Is there simply a line drawn on the ARG timeline - a BT and AT? Or is it some quality about an ARG that makes it "traditional"? For some reason, I seem to apply a negative connotation to the word traditional, but that may be my problem. Dunno

Anyway, I missed a few of the early ARGs, but I'll use my standard example to test your theory... I definitely played CTW. It wasn't a novel for me. I felt like I was in the world with the characters, helping them rather than watching them. I wonder if the difference is determined by the subject matter and how the setting of the story is constructed? Or is it the amount of interaction? Or is it limitations on the type of interaction that is possible? What makes a game feel like a novel or a game and is it the same for everyone who plays the game? Do lurkers feel the same as heavy participators? I don't think feeling either way is a bad thing, I'm just curious.

yanka wrote:

It was the rabbithole, imho. We use this word so casually that we forget what it actually means. It's a rabbithole, people! You fall down, you can't escape once you start falling, there is nothing else around you, you are sucked in whole and consumed entirely, you enter another world and suddenly everything you knew is on the other side of the mirror - you are doomed. Did I mention that I forgot to eat that day?


YES! That's a rabbithole! If the rabbithole doesn't suck the players in, what good is it?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:48 pm
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

 		another response
Quote:
I know, you may not think you are belittling anyone by just voicing your opinion about these games, but I guarantee you that's how the creators and players of these games take it.


I know, you may not think that we are considering people's feelings when we write our opinions, but that would be wrong. I can't remember reading any personal attacks in this thread, thinly veiled or otherwise.

Trust me, if anyone posting here intended to belittle someone, it would be obvious.

Personally, I find it a bit insulting that someone would presume to judge my motives. I post in META because I care a great deal about the whole genre and the community and I am invested in helping both thrive.

If people want to read an opinion as an attack against them instead thoughts about what works and what doesn't, that is their choice.

Maybe it is easier to think, "oh those snobby people are so arrogant and they hate me" instead of thinking "maybe this doesn't work as well as I thought, I need to fix this" or even "that is their opinion but I am having fun doing this, so screw them." It is easier to attack the person who has a contrary opinion, then it is to listen to what they have to say.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:16 pm
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Dorkmaster
Unfictologist


Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 1328
Location: The People's Republic of Dork
vpisteve wrote:
miss_seph wrote:
well ok then

In this thread we've decided that........


Woah there, ma'am. Very Happy

That was one man's heat-of-the-moment statement, not a decision.


I don't know if this was in reference to my statement previously, but if it was, it was misread. I stated that I WOULD consider Syn an ARG because of the website that ties it in. Also, It was linked to the larger WildFire Industries game, which solidified it even more as an ARG. I know no one was being personal there (so thank you miss seph for being a good ranter, but not degrading to personal attack) but I just wanted to make sure I was being heard clearly.

Also, In terms of what I've read since that post, I think it sounds like most people can, whether they agree on ARG or not, the difference between putting a game solely on the shoulders of IM experiences, and one that uses both IM and webpages, right? Why can't we agree that one is not an ARG and one is an ARG? Why can't people accept that they're playing something different? Why does it need to be ARG? What's so bad about the label gAIMes? Why don't you all send me tens and twenties in unmarked bills? For real, yo....

Oh and in response to rose's post... I don't intend to single out anyone and personally attack anyone. Except that one dude with the hair and the shirt...

Edit: And to tag along again, to what Varin was saying: I was a user of the word "traditional" and that was perhaps a hasty choice of words... However, while there hasn't been a long history to ARGs, there has been a standard... the Beast. It was the genesis of the first true, open access ARG. Sure we had Majestic that you had to pay for, and that was very episodic... and there have been many fine games that did not follow the exact same pattern since the Beast as well, that all would consider ARGs, but the majority have stuck to the same pattern: Websites+Puzzles+Story+Interaction=ARG I know some idiot will put together some horribly crappy webpage to show me how I'm wrong and how horrible that equation is, but the truth is that it works. It is a working statement of the definition of ARG. Just because you have all of these elements, will you have a good ARG? No. But if you pay attention, do your homework, and really invest creative energy into all aspects of those parts, I don't see why you wouldn't have a chance to create something great and memorable, no matter what budget is presented to you. Ok, so I wrote a lot there... I hope it's readable, but Varin (as usual) wrote in a way that helped me compose my own thoughts about the subject. (Varin, you will always be the first person who talked to me about ARGs on this forum, and I am permanently endebted to you. Worshippy )

edity-edit: Also, in my next life, while hanging with Scarpe, I'm going to start a new career: ARG Philosopher. It's not where the money is, but there's enough people talking and arguing about it, that I'm sure I'll get a university post somewhere... Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:30 pm
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Varin
I Have No Life


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 2456
Location: South of where I used to be
Dorkmaster wrote:
(Varin, you will always be the first person who talked to me about ARGs on this forum, and I am permanently endebted to you. Worshippy )


/me writes down "Dorkmaster owes me one" on a slip of paper and locks it in her safe Razz
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:57 pm
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rowan
Unfictologist

Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 1966
Varin wrote:
Matilda has lost her ferret and needs help finding it. Matilda, as a character, has no realization that we at Unfiction are playing a game. She thinks that we are really helping her out. She thinks that her ferret is real and that she really exists.


You mean there's not a real ferret? That makes me sad. Sad
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:07 am
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

 		ARG philosopher is me
Dorkmaster after kissing up to Varin and Scrappy while totally ignoring me (other than to add a comment I didn't understand and making me green with envy..do we have a green with envy emoticon?) wrote:

Quote:
Also, in my next life, while hanging with Scarpe, I'm going to start a new career: ARG Philosopher. It's not where the money is, but there's enough people talking and arguing about


Dude, see my sig and get in line for the position.

Although my last two posts, one titled "ART and conflict" and the other titled "Community Dynamics" vanished in a poof of smoke when I hit submit. Both times. Due to the major frustration caused by having to rewrite the damn things I have to finish banging my head on the keyboard and shaking my fist at the stupid server before I can attempt to reconstruct them.. So tune in later tomorrow. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:47 am
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Varin
I Have No Life


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 2456
Location: South of where I used to be
rowan72 wrote:
You mean there's not a real ferret? That makes me sad. Sad


But, but.... it's an ARG with a ferret!
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:50 am
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terminalskeptik
Unfettered


Joined: 05 Jun 2003
Posts: 351
Location: Onboard the Groovy Purple Derigible

 		ARG with a ferret, or just endless spec about if the ferret is real or imagined, and what the implications of both sides are?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:24 pm
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rowan
Unfictologist

Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 1966
Varin wrote:
But, but.... it's an ARG with a ferret!


I suppose your right.

Huzzah for the ferret ARG! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:24 pm
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maxim
Veteran


Joined: 18 Feb 2005
Posts: 149
Location: United Kingdom 333#: 287

 		I've been pondering something recently: do ARGs have a place outside of the internet? As much as I try to envisage it, it seems an impossibility.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:19 pm
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