unforum

[Gupfee]

[strife777]

Alz, you shouldn't feel personally attacked, because I really don't think thats was the point at all. I respect what you do and I really do think theres a place for what you want to do, and there is a player-base that will happily scoop up and play the type of ARG's that you create.

My point was, and still is, that your ARG does not represent the entire genre. The "trend" (and by trend, I mean the spike that you saw in your game alone) you showed can be explained by probably 300 other different reasons than "All new ARG players want Live interaction and no puzzles," and I just wish you would acknowledge that. By basing things on "server hits", I can sit there and say games like PPC MUST be what people want to play, since they have probably 1,000 times the server hits any grassroots game does. So since they have no live interaction(currently), ARG players must not want any interaction! It just wouldn't be fair to you. You don't have the advertising budget.

So all in all, I'm not attacking you, and hopefully you don't feel that way. I just heavily dislike when people make blanket statements based off of the way they personally want things to go, and have no real anything to back it up. I'm glad you're having successes as a PM, and I hope you keep at it, and have even more.

[Phaedra]

[vpisteve]

[Phaedra]

[Gupfee]

[Phaedra]

[Nightmare Tony]

One thing to counter, it really IS kind of hard to compare Bees, PPC and Beast to the grassroots efforts we are seeing. Those have more players because of the mass advertising involved. Movie posters, AICN, Halo2 trailer, how can a grassroots ARG possibly compete to bring in so many players? It really would be tough for a grassroots to work with over 1 million players on an AIM chat. so the communications techniques to these behemoths isnt valid in trying to invalidate the techqniques used in a grassroots.

(ok, personal opins here begin)
blogs I find more impersonal, actually. The AIM chats have the immediacy of the give and take to help shape where things need to go, for the game to respond to clues immediately instead of on a delay. And blog responses don't appear to create any game response from the players, merely commentary.

A more valid form which isnt available on UF to allow the give and take and blog format would be for allowing the game characters to post and reply in forums. That is why SD2 has their own forum for the game characters and a future project I am working on will also have its own forums for the game characters and players to interact with. The reasoning to that one is if a real life forum used for the purpose was utilized, the non players would over run it and destroy the game dynamic.
(end personal opin)


If I was going to put a base definition for an ARG, it would be:
1. A PM or set of PMS operating behind the curtain. Their identities may or may not be known. That does not matter. When they are behind the curtain and the game is in full force, they ARE the characters or settings for the game, similar to actors.

2. A set of players working together to solve and play through the entire game.

3. A compelling storyline. One that is advanced through the player's actions, whether it be direct interaction or static puzzles.

4. The rabbit hole entry, whether it be the website or AIM conversation, it is the signpost saying "THIS WAY IN".

[Phaedra]

[vpisteve]

[Ozy_y2k]

[weephun]

[krystyn]

I think it's fine if people want to target JUST the ARG community with their games.

But yeah, look at that list Steve posted: there's been plenty of grassroots games with comparable audiences. Mind you, these were games WITHOUT trailer tie-ins for first-run movies, or monies for various other forms of direct advertising.

I think that says something.



Also, I adore Ozy. /me pinches his cheek.

[Phaedra]

[Dorkmaster]

I think this is just one of those times where we just have to agree that I'm right and you're all crazy and be done with it. Like every time.

I tend to take a centrarian view (is that the right word?) between Ozy and vpisteve's view on the grassroots args or arglets (GARGLES?). I tend to think that you can aim for a large audience and not EXPECT small showings, but any good PM should be able to modify their game for the audience involved... for example, if I were to make an ARG about oh, say a coffee bean-picker's rebellion in Guatemala, I would hope it would be a world-wide event, but if only ten people play, then I should keep the scope, but with a game tailored to those ten people (in hopes that the game will be so exciting for those ten, that later in the game, or future efforts will meet with more gamer excitement)

But also, I feel that with bandwidth, hosting, and domain reservation prices dropping or being already fairly cheap, there is always a way to put on a good arg for little money. For example, ILB (while obviously a decently budgeted game) had just two websites. One was absolutely free! And I don't think anyone would say that the game was too narrow in scope (those outside the US and London, hush up!) and that it was puzzly enough to not be considered a simple phone game, and that it was story-driven enough, to not be just a puzzle trail as well. It was a great, broadly imagined game, ready to play with 100 players or the thousands it actually got. My point, is that you can do it cheaply, or free.

I'm thinking back on the Project Gateway game. Obviously grassroots, and it did putter out at the end, but I thought it was a very enjoyable game, and obviously did not cost heaps of money to create. It could have handled many players, had good puzzles as well as at least a mediocre story line. Was it Beast-comprable? probably not. Did it try very hard to be "true" and give you the idea that it was thought through, involved different websites, multiple puzzles and games, AND chat/IM interaction, yes! It was really a great grassroots arg (while it lasted) and I think that is where the balance lies, and why I am centrarian here as well. (centaurian? centurian? sente? -anyway-) It's likely that the most successful and enjoyed games will be rich in content, and that is not limited by budget, just imagination and hard work of the PM(s).