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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: Chasing the Wish » CTW: General/Updates
Are Flash decompilers allowed? Question about synthasis.com.
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ThomasRStevenson
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Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 53
Location: Wayne State University

 		Are Flash decompilers allowed? Question about synthasis.com.
I'm still very new to ARGs, so I'm not sure about the rules for using Flash decompilers. I bring this up because of one of the comments Dave Szulborski made in his interview for unfiction http://www.unfiction.com/compendi/intrview/ctw1.html:

Quote:
We've obviously had to stay away from puzzles that were entirely Flash-based due to the Flash de-compilers available (even though I don't believe anyone's broken the encryption scheme written into the scripting of the Flash based Synthasia password portal yet!)


The above almost makes it sound like he was expecting us to use Flash decompilers (am I reading to much into his comment?). With this in mind, I decompiled the flashindex.swf file, and I found one message printed in a font that is unprintable (as far as I can tell, the text can't be viewed unless the Flash file is decompiled). Why add text to a flash file that can only be viewed by decompiling it???

I'm not going to include the text (even as a spoiler) until I get comments that say this is allowable. Thanks!

PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2003 4:43 pm
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moa-Night
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Joined: 10 Oct 2002
Posts: 70

 		I'd say it's a good thing you didn't.

http://www.chasingthewish.com/faq.html
Quote:
(11) Is there anything not allowed or discouraged?
At several points in the game, Chasing The Wish will require the player to solve puzzles, enter password restricted areas of websites, etc. In an effort to respect the work of the game developers and the desires of the large majority of players to experience the game in an immersive environment, the following methods of solving puzzles and accessing game sites and elements are not allowed and will not be tolerated:
* Brute forcing of password screens by either software or any other means.
* Hacking into server directories and files.
* Decompiling of Flash programs and posting of solutions and/or elements undiscoverable by any other method. While we recognize that many players will continue to use these programs to "rip apart" any Flash based puzzle or movie we post, we strongly encourage players to solve them based on the logic and plot of the story, not merely by analyzing the action script and determining which buttons to push in which sequence. If you use Flash decompilers, we ask that you not post the solution discovered through this method until the "legitimate" solve is discovered and posted by players abiding by the rules of the game. Any proof (through message board posting) of deliberate violation of this request may force CTW to remove the offending player(s) from the registered players' database.


PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2003 4:50 pm
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danman_d
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Joined: 10 Feb 2003
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Location: New York, NY

 		Yes, I would say, as a general rule, do not decompile.

1. The message you found in the code is likely either not important or something we were supposed to find out another way.

2. I'd bet Dave said he was surprised no one has found the way in because he expected people to break the rules and find the sneaky way in. Personally, I'm proud we have been legit so far.

Yes, we can decompile flash to find a backdoor. We can also alter genes to make babies grow up to be good looking. It's a matter of ethics...

-Danny D.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2003 5:35 pm
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AnthraX101
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Joined: 18 Mar 2003
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 		Yes, I got quite trouted the first time I posted some stuff from a decompiled flash file. Smile Don't use what you have, just play the game straight, its much more fun this way.

AnthraX101

PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2003 12:56 am
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ThomasRStevenson
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Joined: 28 Feb 2003
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 		The PMs create the game, and they can create any rules they want, so flash decompiles are out! Thanks.

With that said, what is the difference between people looking at HTML source code, and looking at the information within a flash page? There are several puzzles that would have been diffacult or impossable to solve if someone hadn't look at the html source code. So why is looking at one type of code required, while looking at another type of code not allowed?

I am not suggesting that the PMs can't make up any rules they want. They are giving us a great game, and we have to play within the rules of that game! I'm just trying to understand the reasoning behind the rules.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2003 10:42 am
Last edited by ThomasRStevenson on Mon Apr 07, 2003 11:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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imbri
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Joined: 21 Sep 2002
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Location: wonderland

 		html vs. flash
my thoughts on html code vs. flash coding:

While many games have hidden puzzles & hints within the html code, you cannot use the code to 'give' you the answer. With flash decompilers, you can look at the movie frame by frame and at the actionscript. That will flat out give you the answer (be it a link to a new page or a specific reaction based on whatever input). Therein lies the difference. With one it is possible to get hints but not outright solve, with the other it's possible to avoid hints and get the solution.

While I think a better solution would be to not use flash based puzzles but to, perhaps, utilize the flash source in a similar vein to how we use html source, I can appreciate that it's not a great idea at this point. Html source is easily viewable and recognized by many player (and for those that it's not, it's relatively easy to pick apart). Flash source on the other hand requires a seperate program and some knowledge of the flash environment. Therefore, it immediately eliminates a large portion of the player base. In the same vein, I think back to the browser used in LockJaw (netsight browser). Within hours of it's discovery, players had completely decompiled the program and text documents that were hidden in it that would have/could have been obviously found later in the game by entering a simple url into the browser window. However, they found them the 'hard' way weeks earlier. The documents meant little at that time but did provide for a great deal of spec. A large portion of the player base would not have been able to find them, at least in that way. However, when you are working collaboratively, the knowledge of one becomes the knowledge of many.

It's a muddy area. If I were a PM, I'd just avoid puzzles that relied on flash to give the solution. However, I'd probably hide some puzzles in the swf that would lead to red herrings and waste the players time. Though that would probably be balanced with some hints as to what the page was ultimately about. However, this PM took the approach of asking that players not use such programs. I think that says flat out that there are no puzzles in the swf and lets players know that so that they don't have to take the time to look in that way. It also lets players know that there may be flash based puzzles and that, if so, players are free to decompile but to not spoil it for those that don't have such desires. As they will get directly to the answer and that takes the fun away from those that want to work the puzzle out as it was meant to be. (which brings up a whole different topic... are puzzles & their solutions the art of the puzzle designer or of the puzzle player, much of the time a puzzle is solved in a way that was not intended by the designer).

imbri

PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2003 11:06 am
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ThomasRStevenson
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Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 53
Location: Wayne State University

 		First of all, is there a better place to be talking about these questions about flash???

Given that decompiling is out, are there any legal ways to look at flash data? For example if flash printed a string with the forground and background the same colors, or it used an unprintable font, the string that is print would be invisable to the viewer! Are there any legal ways to manipulate the flash data so that these otherwise invisable strings would become visable?

PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2003 11:49 am
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danman_d
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Joined: 10 Feb 2003
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 		Re: html vs. flash
imbri wrote:

It's a muddy area. If I were a PM, I'd just avoid puzzles that relied on flash to give the solution.


Sure, but there are SO many more fun things that can be done with Flash. If all our puzzles were in HTML, it would be less fun. I personally thoroughly enjoy flash puzzles, they add flavor.

Danny
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2003 6:28 pm
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RPGgame
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Joined: 02 Jan 2003
Posts: 501

 		Re: html vs. flash
danman_d wrote:
imbri wrote:

It's a muddy area. If I were a PM, I'd just avoid puzzles that relied on flash to give the solution.


Sure, but there are SO many more fun things that can be done with Flash. If all our puzzles were in HTML, it would be less fun. I personally thoroughly enjoy flash puzzles, they add flavor.

Danny


I agree

PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2003 6:55 pm
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Valas
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Joined: 04 Apr 2003
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 		Could that font be the ghoti one, that was found the other day??
Just guessing, maybe that chap with the font shoud check the flash file.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2003 7:36 pm
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imbri
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Joined: 21 Sep 2002
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 		Re: html vs. flash
danman_d wrote:
imbri wrote:

It's a muddy area. If I were a PM, I'd just avoid puzzles that relied on flash to give the solution.


Sure, but there are SO many more fun things that can be done with Flash. If all our puzzles were in HTML, it would be less fun. I personally thoroughly enjoy flash puzzles, they add flavor.

Danny


You completely missed my point Sad Let me try again...

imbri with emphasis added wrote:
It's a muddy area. If I were a PM, I'd just avoid puzzles that relied on flash to give the solution . However, I'd probably hide some puzzles in the swf that would lead to red herrings and waste the players time. Though that would probably be balanced with some hints as to what the page was ultimately about.


You can still have flash based puzzle that don't rely on the flash for the solution. It's all a matter of creativity and using server side scripting. You can then utilize the information in the .swf to mislead them into false solutions and red herrings.

imbri

PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2003 9:41 pm
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RPGgame
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Joined: 02 Jan 2003
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 		Re: html vs. flash
imbri wrote:


You can still have flash based puzzle that don't rely on the flash for the solution. It's all a matter of creativity and using server side scripting. You can then utilize the information in the .swf to mislead them into false solutions and red herrings.

imbri


I like that idea of the red herring if you decompile flash. Serves you right for breaking the rules. Lets say there is an email at the end of the trail and when you email that address it suspends your account and lets you know that you can no longer participate since you decompiled flash HA HA I am mean

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2003 12:29 am
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AnthraX101
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Joined: 18 Mar 2003
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 		I think the heart of the issue is assumptions.

I believe the game is designed so that anything done in HTML is marked "insecure", and opened for viewing. Flash, on the other hand, is something that they have marked "secure", and assume that it is behind the curtain.

Now, I know this doesn't work in the real world. If this were a real world thing, I would be hitting everything with all I have, but it's just a game. We have to abide by the rules and constraints, or the game will break in front of us. Smile

It's similar to sparing. You agree not to do certain moves, like hitting your opponent in the groin. Now, if this were a real world fight, with life or death consequences, you'd damn well better protect your groin, because they are going for it. Wink But it's just to help the game, and make it fun for everyone.

AnthraX101

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2003 9:26 am
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imbri
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Joined: 21 Sep 2002
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 		Re: html vs. flash
RPGgame wrote:

Lets say there is an email at the end of the trail and when you email that address it suspends your account and lets you know that you can no longer participate since you decompiled flash HA HA I am mean


that is mean!

*looks over "games to play" list*
*crosses off "play RPGgame's ARG"*

You want evil...

I picture some really funky flash page with lots of things that are clickable but don't seem to go anywhere. When the source is decompiled, there's all sorts of convoluted actionscript that really does nothing as well as some calls to the server based on patterns in the clicking (though you can't tell from the actionscript what the result will be or even really what order the stuff needs to be clicked). It all looks like pointless misdirection and the like. However, you can tell in the actionscript that if you click on some hidden area (mouse stays as a pointer, unlike the others where it goes to a hand...or whatever) you will be sent to another flash page on a seperate movie. From there you move on and on or go back to the original based on similar patterns and hidden areas. Finally after several pages and movies you come to a complete dead end. You've spent hours decompiling the flash and playing with the various sites. You've posted your findings as they all seem relevent and may even provide some pointless, yet seemingly meaningful, spec that doesn't hurt the cause but isn't manditory to get further. You've dragged all your player buddies along for the ride. Later in the week, someone plays with the original page (seemingly for no reason, seeing as it's already been 'solved') and after a simple series of clicks, they find the real solution which is the introduction of a new site or massive plot development which seems to point out the meaninglessness of your supposed findings. All your time was wasted and now everyone is on your case for wasting theirs. You'll think twice before decompiling the next flash Smile

Basic education. Direct them to the "proper" behavior through their own actions and the reactions those cause.

evil? Served em right for going through the source!

imbri

*looks over "puzzle ideas for next ARG" list*
*crosses off "clicky flash"*

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2003 11:40 am
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aliendial
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Joined: 29 Sep 2002
Posts: 3438
Location: Far Far Away. Nowhere Near You. Really.

 		Oh imbri. Don't cross it off. I think you should do it! Doubly especially serve 'em right if they do it after they've been warned...
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2003 3:27 pm
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