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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[CROSS POST] NY Times Article is Up
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vpisteve
Asshatministrator


Joined: 30 Sep 2002
Posts: 2441
Location: 1987
Phaedra wrote:
Well, since the curtain has been drawn back, perhaps we can hope for a Q&A session.

Are you listening, PMs? Very Happy

Q&A Session? Please?


There will be a chance to ask questions of the PMs. Stay tuned for further developments and announcements. Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:22 pm
Last edited by vpisteve on Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously

 		<happy sigh>
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:23 pm
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thebruce
Dances With Wikis


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 6899
Location: Kitchener, Ontario

 		hehe krystyn, forgot about metacortechs... haven't read much about them, but from what I'm gathering, their arg still wasn't up to par with beast 1/2, but it was good none-the-less... am I right? *shrug*
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:24 pm
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Tarrsk
Veteran

Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 98
Location: Washington, DC

 		Great analysis, Phaedra, and I totally agree.

At this point, I'm far more attached to the ILB side of the Halo story than the storyline from Halo itself, primarily due to that ambiguity and mythic nature. While I do believe that, for an FPS, Halo's single player mode was a masterpiece of audio/ visual drama (some of the cutscene animation is really quite incredible in its subtlety), the fact remains that the plot ultimately boiled down to a fairly conventional "hero taking on the faceless alien menace" story. Jan, Jersey, Rani, and Kamal are all exceptional in their own ways (Jan physically, Rani mentally, Kamal through his compassion, etc.), but their frailties were also revealed. That made them seem more human to me than the Master Chief, who remains a stock military type due to his role as player avatar. There is a breadth of emotion here that I think few video games have ever even approached, and it's accomplished as much by allowing the story to confront these difficult, personal issues as by the unorthodox way the story was told.

Here's hoping that Halo 2 lives up to its own advertising campaign. That sounds a bit demeaning, but I mean it with all the optimism I can muster: the guys at 42 have set the bar that high. Smile

EDIT - Wow, this thread is jumpin' fast. Yay Q&A! Very Happy

PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:36 pm
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago
thebruce wrote:
hehe krystyn, forgot about metacortechs... haven't read much about them, but from what I'm gathering, their arg still wasn't up to par with beast 1/2, but it was good none-the-less... am I right? *shrug*


Oh, I dunno. You'll have to ask the players. Wink

For grass-roots, I think Metacortechs might've passed muster. I might be biased.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:42 pm
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Phaedra
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Joined: 21 Sep 2004
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 		Why I won't do an ARG...
I agree, Tarrsk. I play Halo more as stress relief than for the story line.

But this...

Incidentally, I don't have a good place to put this, but since we're talking about ARG organization, I'll put it here.

A bunch of people PM'd me asking me if I'd ever considered doing an ARG. Unfortunately, your PMs appear to have been lost during one of the times I inadvertantly deleted everything in my inbox rather than just the marked posts. Embarassed I can't remember who you all were. Sorry!

So, I'll kill multiple birds with one stone and answer you here.

No, I have never considered doing an ARG, and I don't think it's likely that I ever will.

I have done parties-with-a-plot, in which the guests were characters -- a murder mystery dinner party for which we threw out the kit and did it ourselves (the crowning touch was the blackout we manufactured...with our neighbors! the guests were so convinced it was real...unfortunately the weather wouldn't cooperate and give us a storm...oh well); a Halloween party with a graveyard, a cursed tree, and a mysterious gypsy fortuneteller; a camping party with an alien visitation (for my little sister...those kids were still talking about it 9 years later <smirk>); and a haunted carnival.

These weren't just themed parties: they had plots, characters, and the guests were active participants. I enjoy creating backstories and putting in extra little touches to make the visceral reaction more complete, and I plan to continue to do things like that.

BUT...

That's the closest I'll probably ever come to doing an ARG.

I'm an organizational person: I'm good at finding ways to actually implement ideas, setting up processes to get things done, etc. I'm also an idea person. If a group of people has already come up with the idea, and is sitting around a table talking about it, I get really creative. I'm also a good reference person. If that group of people wants backstory, or background information, wants to add references to something to make the story richer, etc. I'm a good resource.

What I am NOT is a big-picture organizer. Left to my own devices, my ideas become more and more complex until they become impractical. This is the same reason I will probably never write a novel. Without someone to ground me and force me to keep it simple enough to be practical, I end up with the concept for a vast and detailed story...that's impossible to wrap up. It's odd, I know, since if someone else is running the show, I'm good at streamlining things, but on my own...I guess in some ways, I am like an AI -- I think myself to death (probably the reason I'm an insomniac Smile ).

I think the ability to pull off a satisfying balance of complexity and simplicity, to have a big picture that is big enough to be fascinating but small enough to be manageable, is essential to running an ARG. And that's exactly the quality I lack.

That said, if anyone here ever decides to do one and wants someone to brainstorm with, or wants some help thinking of ways to implement their ideas, feel free to contact me.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:53 pm
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yanka
Fickle


Joined: 06 Oct 2003
Posts: 1214
Location: undesirable
krystyn wrote:
Oh, I dunno. You'll have to ask the players Wink

Player here.
thebruce wrote:
hehe krystyn, forgot about metacortechs... haven't read much about them, but from what I'm gathering, their arg still wasn't up to par with beast 1/2, but it was good none-the-less... am I right? *shrug*

Wasn't up to par? Undoubtedly, in terms of the number of players it wasn't; but in every other aspect I think it was over, above, and beyond par - not of just this game, but any other game, EVAR. But that is, just, you know, imho. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:43 pm
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darkmoonz
Unfettered


Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 330
Location: Gainesville, FL

 		phaedra...

i definitly think that a couple of us could get together here and bang out an awesome one (not on the scale of ilb, but a good one none-the-less)... i've pulled skills out of myself that i didn't even know i had during this game, and it might even effect my college descisions (well, i'm about to go into my 6th semester, so probably won't alter my major, but i may take a few extra classes)... (:

but, aside from that, this has been an awesome experience for me, and i don't know what i'll do after all this is over... i just need to find another arg (preferably one that's just starting or about to start)... (:
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:53 pm
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Shad0
I Have No Life


Joined: 20 Jun 2004
Posts: 2180
Location: Southern California, USA

 		Re: MetaCortechs
thebruce wrote:
hehe krystyn, forgot about metacortechs... haven't read much about them, but from what I'm gathering, their arg still wasn't up to par with beast 1/2, but it was good none-the-less... am I right? *shrug*

I think you might also be forgetting, say, Lockjaw? Chasing the Wish? And many others over the past three years that I'm sure I'm forgetting?

The big difference between the Beast/ILB and the others, in my opinion? Budget. I'm afraid you may be right in that we won't see any "grass roots" game, no matter how creative and well-crafted, that can approach what can be done with MicroSoft's money. (This is not, by the way, in any way to sell short our beloved and brilliant PMs. All the money in the world won't make a good ARG if you don't know what you're doing. Mr. Green )

P.S. to Phaedra: Worshippy . As usual.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 3:05 pm
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MrBabyMan
Boot

Joined: 07 Nov 2003
Posts: 12
Location: Los Angeles

 		I'm proud to have been part of 4orty2wo's original "case study" (during which my wife and I spent our honeymoon), and a proud Axon Hunter on this, their newest project (during which my wife and I are expecting our first baby). It's comforting. I feel like the PM's have been around during two of the most important milestones of my life. Bravo on a great game, PM's. Keep up the good work!

PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:30 pm
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Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously

 		Re: MetaCortechs
Shad0 wrote:
The big difference between the Beast/ILB and the others, in my opinion? Budget. I'm afraid you may be right in that we won't see any "grass roots" game, no matter how creative and well-crafted, that can approach what can be done with MicroSoft's money. (This is not, by the way, in any way to sell short our beloved and brilliant PMs. All the money in the world won't make a good ARG if you don't know what you're doing. Mr. Green )


Yes. And again, as a consumer, THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU.

Thank you to Bungie for being willing to let outsiders play with their universe -- yes, having Sean Stewart running the show probably reassured you that it was in good hands, but I understand how hard it must have been to give up some control of your baby and trust others to take good care of it.

Thank you to Microsoft for being willing to take this sort of marketing risk. Despite the success of The Beast, ARGs haven't exactly entered the public consciousness as a good marketing strategy yet. Often, it's big corporations that get most locked into their ways of doing things -- I'm impressed that they took the chance.

And of course, thank you to the PMs. Thank you for making the intuitive leap that the principles which work for small local businesses can work in a mass market situation as well. The type of strategy that doesn't ask, "How can we get faceless people to spend the most money with the least effort on our part?" but instead attempts to build a relationship touched with affection on both sides (at least, if you don't actually regard us with affection, you fake it very well Smile ), that realizes that attempting to make people happy is what builds loyalty, not sending junk mail claiming you appreciate customer loyalty, and that views your customers as individual people, not a faceless mass whose only important quality is buying power.

The way that businesses are treating both their employees and their customers, I feel, is generally going downhill. Gone are the days when bankers knew all their clients personally and the local grocery store worked with people in the neighborhood to provide meals for the family when someone in the neighborhood died.

There are a few rays of hope, but they're mostly still small, local businesses. Large corporations, in general, deploy faceless employees to provide services to a faceless customer base.

Larger businesses occasionally seem to be able to manage it -- the company I work for treats both its employees and its customers like gold. But in general, it's bad.

And it's all the more disappointing because for the first time in history, businesses should be able to get to know their far-flung customers almost as easily as their local ones. Watching the election on Tuesday night, I was struck by how often the commentators mentioned the communities that were waiting it out together -- not just local election parties, but close-knit Internet communities holding their breath together, analyses flying across the ether at lightning speed, sharing their excitement.

The PMs combined these principals. They gave us, as consumers, our faces back. Ironically, they did it through what, at first glance, would seem to be tools of depersonalization -- the Internet and anonymous payphones.

They didn't let distance stop them from getting to know us as people, not as credit cards. They drove us to build a community here, unbound by distance. They asked for our loyalty not because they could offer low prices or longer warranties, but because they took our interests into mind, and tried to serve us as well as their client. They even tried to take care of their customers in a way that seems very much like a little local business to me -- when HitsHerMark might have been at some risk because of a hoax, they made sure to warn her. When thebruce couldn't make it to an event, they recognized his contribution to the community and made sure to take care of him.

In my mind, both sides are winners here. Microsoft/Bungie gets a marketing campaign that, I think, will go down in the history books for its creativity and the enthusiasm with which it was received.

We get marketing that is as entertaining as the product that's being marketed. We get to feel that we're respected and cared for. We get encouraged to form a community that looks out for one another and supports its members.

And all of this is *before* we actually ever come in contact with the product/service itself: Halo 2.

Yes, I think we all won here.

Quote:
P.S. to Phaedra: Worshippy . As usual.


Love you too, Shad0. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:23 pm
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Mazian
Unfettered

Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 529
Location: San Francisco, CA

 		Phaedra,

A beautiful post. I could not say it better.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:33 pm
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Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously
Mazian wrote:
Phaedra,

A beautiful post. I could not say it better.


Thanks, Mazian. My family has been involved with consumer advocacy for a long time. One of my earliest memories is my mother terrifying the local cable company. Early on, I learned the two phrases that make customer service people go white in the face and pay *very* close attention to what you're saying: "dishonest business practices" and "health code violation."

Generally, when I have anything to say about company-consumer interaction, it's negative.

Observing something like this makes me want to babble with happiness.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:52 pm
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Cherry Cotton
Decorated


Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 237

 		Phaedra, you kick my ass.

One of the most striking things about ILB for me was the fact that they managed to mix the local collaboration--our little groups in our respective cities--with a much larger collaboration between people all over the world. So I might go to a payphone and see one of my friends, who can tell me, "hey, I just looked on the forums, somebody jumped up and down and got a picture of it so that he could be the paratrooper!" Or, when I'm about to get an axon, I can call up Angelo or Buzzkill and tell everybody, "Listen! The SP will call and ask you ten questions!" etc. (Each of which happened.)

Anybody who says the Internet is keeping people from meeting each other needs to be chased by a swarm of bees.. Very Happy

Hey, while we're on the subject of women in games being poorly represented... everybody should know something: The guy who created Lara Croft, Toby Gard, was so pissed when he saw Eidos, the publisher of Tomb Raider, turning Lara into a sexpot that he left the developer (Core) two months after they released his big game. He's since said that part of what he liked about Lara upon creating her is that she was mysterious and unattainable... and that his friends told him he was subconsciously basing her off of her sister, whom he admires, which he believes is probably true.

This public service announcement was brought to you by Cherry Cotton's bitter annoyance over the fact that Eidos really passed up a chance to have a powerful woman action hero and instead turned her into Ms. Male Fantasy of the Month and started a disturbing trend in videogames that we never recovered from....

...and the fact that Tomb Raider was promptly run into the ground by its developers, to the extent that after Tomb Raider 6's dismal reviews, Eidos yanked the lisence from Core and gave it to Crystal Dynamics, who hired back Toby Gard who is producing Tomb Raider 7. sniff... I love a happy ending... you may now return to your regularly scheduled topic...

PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 10:32 pm
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Anton P. Nym
Unfettered


Joined: 25 Jul 2004
Posts: 550
Location: London, Canada

 		The Internet is all about community building... that's its design function. If some undersocialized dweebs can't make it work, well, the problem rests between keyboard and chair. Smile I'm amazed at how quickly communities can form "here", and indeed how durable they can be.

Phaedra, Cherry Cotton, I think you might want to look at Oni if you're cheesed off at the common ruck of "female" characters in video games. Konoko's portrayal was carefully crafted to avoid the Lara Croft Syndrome, and though reviewers gave the game mixed reviews they all admired the strength of the central character.

-- Steve's been pondering picking it up for a while, but with Halo 2 and Xbox Live coming up it'll be a while. (three more days! squeal!)
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 11:25 pm
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